The Official 2023 ES Free Agency Thread... available until Free Agency 2024 begins

[DWinzit]

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

He was a flawed try hard with limited skill and played beyond his ability and a crowd favorite, but I want a legit bad ass next to Davis, who has turned into a legit bad ass.

 

The 49ers defense is a great example. They have probably the best ILB right now and Greenlaw next to him. We have the Greenlaw in Davis, but Holcomb was no Fred Warner.

Just hoping their answer as a replacement isn't Barton and a 4th rounder

[tmandoug1]

played beyond his ability

 

How does one actually do that? How can a person actually play beyond their ability? I mean can they play to their potential or is there an actual point where they just decide to take this magical pill where they can all of a sudden play beyond their ability. What does that even mean? He was the best LB we had and now the excuses come out as to why he sucked. 

[method man]

29 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

He was a flawed try hard with limited skill and played beyond his ability and a crowd favorite, but I want a legit bad ass next to Davis, who has turned into a legit bad ass.

 

The 49ers defense is a great example. They have probably the best ILB right now and Greenlaw next to him. We have the Greenlaw in Davis, but Holcomb was no Fred Warner.

There’s a Hall of Famer out there who is a free agent

[zCommander]

 

[Wyvern]

39 minutes ago, Conn said:

Nah, by the end of the season Davis was definitely our best LB and imo it wasn’t close. Holcomb was replacement level which on the surface seems fine, but given the way LB’s can be exploited in today’s game, I think being average as an off ball LB gives much less return on value than an average player at most other positions, if that makes sense. 

Sorry Conn-- not letting this go through as fact. I disagree totally with you.  You still want to look at Davis with Burgundy&Gold tinted glasses.  I still saw a lot of issues with Davis, to the point they redesigned his responsibilities.  Say what you want -- I'm not going to change where I saw he still needed work.

 

More to your point, Davis was better, maybe even okay, but let's be realistic, he had NO starter level competition, after Holcomb went down.  He was the last LB standing,  because after Holcomb, Mayhew& Co had nothing signed as backup in the way of starter level.  

 

 

[Conn]

31 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

Sorry Conn-- not letting this go through as fact. I disagree totally with you.  You still want to look at Davis with Burgundy&Gold tinted glasses.  I still saw a lot of issues with Davis, to the point they redesigned his responsibilities.  Say what you want -- I'm not going to change where I saw he still needed work.

 

More to your point, Davis was better, maybe even okay, but let's be realistic, he had NO starter level competition, after Holcomb went down.  He was the last LB standing,  because after Holcomb, Mayhew& Co had nothing signed as backup in the way of starter level.  

 

 

 

I at least partially agree with your take on Davis, he still needs work. He hadn’t played much before he got here, but his improvement last season was encouraging. 

 

That doesn’t change that he was our best linebacker. I didn’t say he was a stud. Take it as an indictment on the position group if you must, but that comment was meant to say more about Holcomb than Davis. 

[method man]

At LB, Anthony Walker is another guy they should talk to who should be cheap. He’s coming off a season ending injury. He’s a solid player who is not a playmaker; he apparently was the Brissett of the Cleveland D where he is absolutely beloved by teammates

[Est.1974]

I should clarify my use of the word conservative. 
 

According to over the cap we are 5th in the league in active cash spend in 2023. Added to this we apparently have more players under contract than any other team. So, we have been very active in terms of building the roster.

 

My thoughts on being ‘conservative’ are, 

 

We roll with Howell but give a vet QB 8m

We love our young group of TE but still have Thomas due 7m in cash

We’ve clearly brought in a staring Center but still have Roullier slated for 9m in cash

Are we really going to pay Norwell 4m in cash.

 

Maybe it’s loyalty, maybe it’s conservative in terms of not wanting to cut players before necessary, eg let’s see what the draft brings first, or the offseason, fair enough. Ron likes that safety net though doesn’t he, IMO.

 

Ultimately between Thomas, Roullier and Norwell you’ve got 20mil in 2023 cash spend.

 

Is that a good allocation of resource. Would other teams do that ? Could that have gone on a LB and another OL, still with change left over, or whatever else....a skill player or DB upgrade. Use it to pay Curl now ?

 

Again, I’m trying hard to fight against appearing too negative  it’s these ‘safety net’ calls I find ‘conservative’...

 

Its definitely slim pickings now, pending cuts around the league aside. Will be interesting to see our next moves.

[Est.1974]

 

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

2 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

I should clarify my use of the word conservative. 
 

According to over the cap we are 5th in the league in active cash spend in 2023. Added to this we apparently have more players under contract than any other team. So, we have been very active in terms of building the roster.

 

My thoughts on being ‘conservative’ are, 

 

We roll with Howell but give a vet QB 8m

We love our young group of TE but still have Thomas due 7m in cash

We’ve clearly brought in a staring Center but still have Roullier slated for 9m in cash

Are we really going to pay Norwell 4m in cash.

 

Maybe it’s loyalty, maybe it’s conservative in terms of not wanting to cut players before necessary, eg let’s see what the draft brings first, or the offseason, fair enough. Ron likes that safety net though doesn’t he, IMO.

 

Ultimately between Thomas, Roullier and Norwell you’ve got 20mil in 2023 cash spend.

 

Is that a good allocation of resource. Would other teams do that ? Could that have gone on a LB and another OL, still with change left over, or whatever else....a skill player or DB upgrade. Use it to pay Curl now ?

 

Again, I’m trying hard to fight against appearing too negative  it’s these ‘safety net’ calls I find ‘conservative’...

 

Its definitely slim pickings now, pending cuts around the league aside. Will be interesting to see our next moves.

We are several cycles into this now. This is what Ron does. We did the same exact thing last year. There are 4-5 guys that may not play much but will make $30 million. You listed 3 … Lucas is another. 
 

Personally I’d cut Thomas and Roullier today. In the end those guys likely get cut depending on the draft but it is kind of frustrating seeing us not be aggressive with roster moves on the fringe starters that are overpaid. 
 

I also would have been way more aggressive on the OL. Seeing what some of these Centers got paid I feel like we overpaid for Gates. I doubt Orlando Brown would have come here but we could have swapped his salary for Lenos. 
 

Add Leno to the list of guys we could cut but won’t. If we landed a LT in the draft that we felt could start at LT right away, you could cut Leno and save $22m over the next 2 years and find a good backup OT for 1/10 the cost. 
 

but we won’t. 

Edited March 18, 2023 by JamesMadisonSkins

[KDawg]

6 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

played beyond his ability

 

How does one actually do that? How can a person actually play beyond their ability? I mean can they play to their potential or is there an actual point where they just decide to take this magical pill where they can all of a sudden play beyond their ability. What does that even mean? He was the best LB we had and now the excuses come out as to why he sucked. 

Not me. I’ve never been high on what Holcomb consistently brought to the table. Didn’t play downhill enough, despite his athleticism was late to read and get into coverage and made a ton of tackles down field. He was a good run defender when run blitzed or he knew the tendency and his athleticism helped him accrue tackles (some, admittedly, saved the defense from giving up big plays).

 

Davis is better in coverage and playing downhill. He’s a better blitzer. He’s just as if not more athletic. He doesn’t have the same production yet as Holcomb but he’s going into year 3. 

 

6 hours ago, Wyvern said:

Sorry Conn-- not letting this go through as fact. I disagree totally with you.  You still want to look at Davis with Burgundy&Gold tinted glasses.  I still saw a lot of issues with Davis, to the point they redesigned his responsibilities.  Say what you want -- I'm not going to change where I saw he still needed work.

 

More to your point, Davis was better, maybe even okay, but let's be realistic, he had NO starter level competition, after Holcomb went down.  He was the last LB standing,  because after Holcomb, Mayhew& Co had nothing signed as backup in the way of starter level.  

 

 

Yes, Davis struggle reading things at times and isn’t instinctual. It’s actually a similar problem with Holcomb. But he is better at the rest of the linebacker job description.  One thing I think stands out with Davis is sometimes he makes contact with a blocker and it looks like his eyes go down instead of staying up. Then the ball carrier runs by and he doesn’t even react because he’s not looking. One of a few things he needs to shore up. Reading OL keys is another. 
 

But he transitions into pass drops really well and when he gets there he’s pretty damn good in coverage, too. He’s the ideal modern day ILB that just needs a touch more seasoning.

Edited March 18, 2023 by KDawg

[FrFan]

2 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

Again, I’m trying hard to fight against appearing too negative  it’s these ‘safety net’ calls I find ‘conservative’...

 

It's bang for the buck, optimization of your assets.

In the mean time

[MrJL]

41 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

We are several cycles into this now. This is what Ron does. We did the same exact thing last year. There are 4-5 guys that may not play much but will make $30 million. You listed 3 … Lucas is another. 
 

Personally I’d cut Thomas and Roullier today. In the end those guys likely get cut depending on the draft but it is kind of frustrating seeing us not be aggressive with roster moves on the fringe starters that are overpaid. 
 

I also would have been way more aggressive on the OL. Seeing what some of these Centers got paid I feel like we overpaid for Gates. I doubt Orlando Brown would have come here but we could have swapped his salary for Lenos. 
 

Add Leno to the list of guys we could cut but won’t. If we landed a LT in the draft that we felt could start at LT right away, you could cut Leno and save $22m over the next 2 years and find a good backup OT for 1/10 the cost. 
 

but we won’t. 

 

yes, well we have a new owner likely coming it.  It's possible new guy might tell them to go nuts on the restructures.  That might be why they're waiting

[Est.1974]

2 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 

yes, well we have a new owner likely coming it.  It's possible new guy might tell them to go nuts on the restructures.  That might be why they're waiting

Not at this stage. Or not for this season anyway.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Worth a listen relates to FA and ownership going forward. No I don’t mean you can’t sign players if you have crap facilities but being treated well is noticed 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[skinsfan66]

8 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

played beyond his ability

 

How does one actually do that? How can a person actually play beyond their ability? I mean can they play to their potential or is there an actual point where they just decide to take this magical pill where they can all of a sudden play beyond their ability. What does that even mean? He was the best LB we had and now the excuses come out as to why he sucked. 

Agee, Liked him and not glad he is gone.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

I should clarify my use of the word conservative. 
 

According to over the cap we are 5th in the league in active cash spend in 2023. Added to this we apparently have more players under contract than any other team. So, we have been very active in terms of building the roster.

 

My thoughts on being ‘conservative’ are, 

 

We roll with Howell but give a vet QB 8m

We love our young group of TE but still have Thomas due 7m in cash

We’ve clearly brought in a staring Center but still have Roullier slated for 9m in cash

Are we really going to pay Norwell 4m in cash.

 

Maybe it’s loyalty, maybe it’s conservative in terms of not wanting to cut players before necessary, eg let’s see what the draft brings first, or the offseason, fair enough. Ron likes that safety net though doesn’t he, IMO.

 

Ultimately between Thomas, Roullier and Norwell you’ve got 20mil in 2023 cash spend.

 

Is that a good allocation of resource. Would other teams do that ? Could that have gone on a LB and another OL, still with change left over, or whatever else....a skill player or DB upgrade. Use it to pay Curl now ?

 

Again, I’m trying hard to fight against appearing too negative  it’s these ‘safety net’ calls I find ‘conservative’...

 

Its definitely slim pickings now, pending cuts around the league aside. Will be interesting to see our next moves.

 

Rivera last year referenced a budget retroactively. This year he mentioned a budget proactively given to him by the Snyders.

 

Whike it’s been stated that much of the escrow money isn’t given until 9 months, some of the money of these contracts are indeed allocated now.

 

When a new owner comes you might see some more restructuring and the budget opened some more.   it’s not free money of course but the idea is to push more eggs in a win now mode and take some pain later ala the Eagles, Rams losing players. 
 

But I’d gather the new owners might want a more win now and deal with the consequences later approach because they’d want for obvious reasons to have a big year 1

 

 

[Est.1974]

Yeah that’s going to be a big thing for us moving forward, getting seriously kicked in that survey will prove to be a blessing in disguise. Well go from bottom of the heap up to top 5 very quickly IMO.

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Rivera last year referenced a budget retroactively. This year he mentioned a budget proactively given to him by the Snyders.

 

Whike it’s been stated that much of the escrow money isn’t given until 9 months, some of the money of these contracts are indeed allocated now.

 

When a new owner comes you might see some more restructuring and the budget opened some more.   it’s not free money of course but the idea is to push more eggs in a win now mode and take some pain later ala the Eagles, Rams losing players. 
 

But I’d gather the new owners might want a more win now and deal with the consequences later approach because they’d want for obvious reasons to have a big year 1

 

 

My specific point is that we’re top 5 in cash spend right now and we’re still paying contacts we shouldn’t necessarily be keeping on the books. We might be at the budget limit, but we could make contract moves, via release or reduction in terms, to create more funding availability. Redirect that budget.

 

That said, I’m generally fine with it. We just seem to go about things in a pedestrian manner.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Yeah that’s going to be a big thing for us moving forward, getting seriously kicked in that survey will prove to be a blessing in disguise. Well go from bottom of the heap up to top 5 very quickly IMO.

My specific point is that we’re top 5 in cash spend right now and we’re still paying contacts we shouldn’t necessarily be keeping on the books. We might be at the budget limit, but we could make contract moves, via release or reduction in terms, to create more funding availability. Redirect that budget.

 

That said, I’m generally fine with it. We just seem to go about things in a pedestrian manner.

 

Forgot which beat guy said it, it was a couple of beat guys talking to each other and I believe on Keim’s show. Two points they made

 

A. Some players that fans want gone to recoup cap room like Logan Thomas they actually like 

 

B. The idea that this isn’t a destination spot is a real thing, No it doesn’t mean that it precludes them for signing guys but some of these players indeed have multiple options and can choose.
 

That’s for example what might have happened with Tranquill. So if you release for example Thomas do you feel confident that you can land a player at a similar price?

 

As Michael Phillips likes to say you often have to pay a player an extra tax for coming here unlike some other teams.  Yes the top bidder often gets the player but his point is you often need to go a bit higher for some even beyond that. 

 

Listening to Keim I get the vibe they are now in combination mode of waiting for prices to come down perhaps on certain players and waiting for players to get cut post draft. Typically there are some players cut later. That’s how we landed years ago Josh Norman, Charles Leno, Desean Jackson. I don’t get the impression at all they are done 

[Est.1974]

I’m sure before we get to the start of the season EB has a new toy at TE, RB and potentially WR. He’ll change up the current group, eventually.

[Est.1974]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

A. Some players that fans want gone to recoup cap room like Logan Thomas they actually like

Specifically on this, 50 receptions and 500 yards over 2 seasons, 12 career TDs. I bet he likes us better. Can’t justify paying him 7mil. No way.

[MrJL]

2 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

Not at this stage. Or not for this season anyway.

 

Yeah, obviouly not at THIS stage, but the way everyone it talking we're about a week away from the next stage and renegotiating contracts. well you're already going to pay these people anyway and the GM and coaches already have a relationship with

[Warhead36]

Regarding Thomas, I think the staff wants to see how he looks in minicamps/OTAs first, and then see how the draft plays out. He's the only experienced TE on the roster but if he isn't healthy and/or we draft someone early, he's gonna get cut. On the flip side if he's healthy and looking like the Thomas from 2020 we'll probably keep him around. 

 

All of the above can be applied to Roullier as well.

 

Leno is our starting LT and is fine in that role. He's not getting cut unless we draft a LT at 16 that can start day one.

 

Not sure why Norwell is still on the roster. He should have been cut.

 

My guess is we take a TE and IOL somewhere in the middle rounds and cut Thomas and Roullier after the draft. Maybe designate them as post June 1 cuts if that helps matters.

[MrJL]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Regarding Thomas, I think the staff wants to see how he looks in minicamps/OTAs first, and then see how the draft plays out. He's the only experienced TE on the roster but if he isn't healthy and/or we draft someone early, he's gonna get cut. On the flip side if he's healthy and looking like the Thomas from 2020 we'll probably keep him around. 

 

All of the above can be applied to Roullier as well.

 

Leno is our starting LT and is fine in that role. He's not getting cut unless we draft a LT at 16 that can start day one.

 

Not sure why Norwell is still on the roster. He should have been cut.

 

My guess is we take a TE and IOL somewhere in the middle rounds and cut Thomas and Roullier after the draft. Maybe designate them as post June 1 cuts if that helps matters.

Hell, Leno may get shifted to RT if an LT is drafted

 

I agree about Norwell.  If he even capable of being a swing guard if someone beat him out?

 

Maybe Roullier could swing out to guard instead of being cut

[Chump Bailey]

12 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

He was one of the examples of "could work out at OT, but could be even better at Guard". But he doesn't want to be a Guard, or a RT. Just a LT. And he's been generally average, except for last year where he got lit up in pass pro.

 

I think he's in for a rude awakening about his value and where he should be playing.

 

Okay, I've not followed him. We're probably going to add to the position in the draft anyway.