Next Day Thread: Lions Command Respect

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

Del Rio is the easy scapegoat because the defense has been terrible.  But Del Rio wasn't the one who made the decision to go for 2 when they didn't need to.  Rivera is a great guy, but he ain't taking us to any promised land.  

I didn't agree with that decision and criticized it when it was made.  Most analytics guys defended it voiciferously on twitter.  They said that was how to play the odds.  Maybe so but it didn't factor context which was the Lions D line was blowing up the O line.  Still, they didn't lose because of that decision.

 

The defense looks atrocious.  That's not all on Del Rio clearly.  But IMO he needs to go.  

[Chris 44]

15 hours ago, BleedBNG said:

True. We need an extra point kicker 🤪

That would be innovative...a Field goal kicker and a separate extra point kicker, we can get rid of one of the LB's to make room. LOL

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

What I got from that is our players on defense are dumb as rocks and can’t execute anything beyond bare bones vanilla. 

 We need a London Fletcher type desperately -- not just that type of player but his brain power.  A dude who sees things on the field and can direct guys.

 

I recall Michael Strahan talking uo why Antonio Pierce changed everything for thier defense at the time because although they (Giants) had talent they needed a general like him on the field who would tell everyone (including him) what's coming. 

 

I'd add Landon Collins might be a big loss.  Because he was described by some as being really helpful directing guys.

 

I am sure many here remember Sean Taylor the first season after Ryan Clark left, and he wasn't as good.  Some attributed that to not having Clark helping direct him. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[CobraCommander]

15 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

What I got from that is our players on defense are dumb as rocks and can’t execute anything beyond bare bones vanilla. 

No all of of them but I understand the sentiment. For me Montez Sweat, Bill Jackson and Robert McCain stand out as some dumb mother****ers. Some of others just lack talent. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by CobraCommander

[Spaceman Spiff]

Yeah, we're not the most talented team.

 

But @KDawgI think the reason people keep harping on the coaches is for a few reasons.  First, as mentioned, this team hasn't really improved since Rivera and Co. have been here.  I mean, it's a long season but it seems so obvious that this is going to be another 7-10 season, 8-9, whatever.  We were lucky to beat the Jaguars, if they had better quarterback play we'd have lost.  

 

As I admitted, this isn't a talented team but I don't believe it's 100% lacking.  The defense is atrocious but I don't believe they should be THIS bad.  

 

It's easy to blame the coaches when the team looks completely unprepared and flat footed like they were to start the game.  They weren't putting up a fight at all.  I don't believe that has to do with lack of talent, that's just lack of preparation.  Again, we're not the most talented bunch but I don't believe the delta between our talent and the Lions talent is to be blown out 22-0 in the first half.  

 

So yeah, coaching.  

[Warhead36]

8 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

No all of of them but I understand the sentiment. For me Montez Sweat, Bill Jackson and Robert McCain stand out as some dumb mother****ers. Some of others just lack talent. 

Davis also doesn't process information well at all. 

[redskinss]

Ironically in Rivera's first year we basically were the lions.

He had them flying around the field giving 110 percent but still mostly losing because we were just outmatched by most teams.

Why they're playing with notably less speed, hustle and motivation in year 3 is perplexing to me.

[Warhead36]

3 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Ironically in Rivera's first year we basically were the lions.

He had them flying around the field giving 110 percent but still mostly losing because we were just outmatched by most teams.

Why they're playing with notably less speed, hustle and motivation in year 3 is perplexing to me.

We got blown out regularly in 2020. 

[KDawg]

13 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Yeah, we're not the most talented team.

 

But @KDawgI think the reason people keep harping on the coaches is for a few reasons.  First, as mentioned, this team hasn't really improved since Rivera and Co. have been here.  I mean, it's a long season but it seems so obvious that this is going to be another 7-10 season, 8-9, whatever.  We were lucky to beat the Jaguars, if they had better quarterback play we'd have lost.  

 

As I admitted, this isn't a talented team but I don't believe it's 100% lacking.  The defense is atrocious but I don't believe they should be THIS bad.  

 

It's easy to blame the coaches when the team looks completely unprepared and flat footed like they were to start the game.  They weren't putting up a fight at all.  I don't believe that has to do with lack of talent, that's just lack of preparation.  Again, we're not the most talented bunch but I don't believe the delta between our talent and the Lions talent is to be blown out 22-0 in the first half.  

 

So yeah, coaching.  

 

I disagree. The players play, the coaches coach. The team didn't play like they weren't prepared. They played like they didn't get off the bus. It's easy to point to coaching when people think the talent level is higher than it is, but it really isn't that high.

 

What have guys like Montez Sweat actually done in the NFL? Not much. Name someone on our defense who has been consistently good. I'll name three: Jon Allen, Daron Payne, Kam Curl. We are without one of those three. The others haven't done a whole lot to stand out. 

 

I'm not willing to give Del Rio a pass because, quite frankly, I think he buries himself by participating in Twitter too often (No, I'm not talking about his actual comments and whether I agree or not, but when you are a coach you have to selectively choose what to participate in conversationally and what not to). I don't think the team believes in him. But he didn't go out there and blow assignments. For a guy with a reported overly simplistic scheme you'd think our players would understand it.

 

Turner has been very good as a whole this year. He's had 2.25 quarters of bad football. 5.75 of good. Is that great? No. But it's forward movement. Our offense has been good. I'm miffed at them not taking Hutch seriously in gameplanning, but you win some you lose some. They recovered.

 

This team IS getting better. Just way too slowly. And when it goes too slow you lose people along the way and it falls apart again. Once you get that improvement it has to be steady or the ship starts taking on water again.

 

They have to bounce back next week. 

 

I don't think our coaching is high level, I want that to be clear. But the amount of people blaming only the coaching here has been really strange to me. Like they think our roster is stacked.

 

It's absolutely not.

 

But it's an average roster across the board.

 

So with an average roster some weeks the players will play below average, average and above average.

 

Sometimes coaching makes them play that way as well. But an average roster is a very up and down experience week to week.

Edited September 19, 2022 by KDawg

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

 

 

[redskinss]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

We got blown out regularly in 2020. 

Yup, but I remember all my friends saying, they may not be a good team but they're fun to watch.

It was because they were playing their hearts out, just like the lions did yesterday.

No idea why but this team does not play even half as hard as that 2020 team but it is unquestionably more talented. 

 

[Warhead36]

4 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Yup, but I remember all my friends saying, they may not be a good team but they're fun to watch.

It was because they were playing their hearts out, just like the lions did yesterday.

No idea why but this team does not play even half as hard as that 2020 team but it is unquestionably more talented. 

 

2020 was not fun to watch at all unless the DL was destroying backup QBs and OL play. 

[redskinss]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

2020 was not fun to watch at all unless the DL was destroying backup QBs and OL play. 

Not for us but you have to look at it from a neutral perspective. 

These people aren't fans of this team, they have no biases towards winning or losing when watching us play. 

Truth be told I didn't notice it nearly as much until several of my friends pointed it out.

When watching that team with no bias towards winning or losing they were actually fun to watch because of the effort they played with.

[Captain James]

39 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

That would be innovative...a Field goal kicker and a separate extra point kicker, we can get rid of one of the LB's to make room. LOL

We really don't have LBs to begin with, so why not take this approach and at least be "innovative" haha. This was a joke btw for those with broken meters.

41 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am sure many here remember Sean Taylor the first season after Ryan Clark left, and he wasn't as good.  Some attributed that to not having Clark helping direct him. 

GASP! Are you implying that ST21 wasn't perfect in every way imaginable? 

[Captain James]

24 minutes ago, KDawg said:

This team IS getting better. Just way too slowly. And when it goes too slow you lose people along the way and it falls apart again. Once you get that improvement it has to be steady or the ship starts taking on water again.

Holy crap that's one of the best ways of describing our team that I've ever heard. This is exactly true, and I think it could even apply to many different eras of this team over the last 2 decades. We never seem to have a "complete" team. Sucks

[Warhead36]

The offense has rapidly improved with the additions of Wentz, Dotson, and a healthy Samuel. 

 

But the defense has degraded big time.

[justice98]

33 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Yeah, we're not the most talented team.

 

But @KDawgI think the reason people keep harping on the coaches is for a few reasons.  First, as mentioned, this team hasn't really improved since Rivera and Co. have been here.  I mean, it's a long season but it seems so obvious that this is going to be another 7-10 season, 8-9, whatever.  We were lucky to beat the Jaguars, if they had better quarterback play we'd have lost.  

 

As I admitted, this isn't a talented team but I don't believe it's 100% lacking.  The defense is atrocious but I don't believe they should be THIS bad.  

 

It's easy to blame the coaches when the team looks completely unprepared and flat footed like they were to start the game.  They weren't putting up a fight at all.  I don't believe that has to do with lack of talent, that's just lack of preparation.  Again, we're not the most talented bunch but I don't believe the delta between our talent and the Lions talent is to be blown out 22-0 in the first half.  

 

So yeah, coaching.  

 

Depth might be a problem, but if we go down the starting lineup on both sides of the ball, player for player, where are we "undertalented"?  LB probably, even though Davis has all the physical talent, but seemingly just doesn't know how to play the position. 

 

Even a unit like the maligned secondary, is full of talented people.  Fuller we know isn't a bum.  WJ3 was a pretty good player prior to coming here.  I remember before they signed him being surprised how he was regarded and graded out.  They really should be two above average corners.  McCain I guess was considered solid in Miami, nothing more, nothing less.  And Curl we know can play (even though he's out right now).  St. Juste, I don't know about. There's no track record other than the little we've seen on him and it's been uneven, at best.

 

I think it's coaching, as well.  A combination of scheme on defense and maybe just an inability to reach these guys. One thing I've noticed in the Rivera era, is the teaching element of coaching seems to be falling flat.  Whether it be Davis, or Gibson, or WJ3, trying to coach people how to do something they're not used to doing just isn't hitting.  Guys aren't figuring it out.  Too many people in roles they're not comfortable with.

[GoDeep81]

Just once it'd be neat to think, after a crappy game like that, that we could improve before the next week (or even as the season moves on). Just never comes to fruition though. We stink year in and year out and never improve anything. It's literally mind boggling if you get to thinking about it. Scary thing is, I imagine all the front office and coaches, etc. really think they have a "plan" going forward. lol 

[skinsmania123]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

The offense has rapidly improved with the additions of Wentz, Dotson, and a healthy Samuel. 

 

But the defense has degraded big time.

Yes. And reading this board, in the offseason, there were so many expressing real concern about our secondary, again for this year.  Our linebackers are just not good enough. And even with the improvements we have on offense, not enough has been done to fortify our secondary.  Receivers seem to run uncontested in it. Often there is not even a player close enough in coverage on a receiver, or if there is, they are 3 steps behind.  And has ST's taken a major step backwards?  The missed assignments, poor tackling, etc.  I honestly do not know what the solution is here. But these secondary issues have been a constant with this team for years. Even the line does not work in sync much of the time to get consistent pressure up front to help makeup up for the mess in the secondary. I don't know if Chase coming back is going to help. Do they fire JDR and get a little less vanilla and predictable? Is it such a lack of ability/talent that it will not matter? The only bright spot seems to be, for now, Forrest.  I really do not know what the solution is to turn this around. But I know it is early. What can they do to turn this around before its too late. Because the O talent is there.

[Reaper Skins]

I hope Jason Wright sees this next time he feels like spouting off...

 

 

[KDawg]

25 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

Depth might be a problem, but if we go down the starting lineup on both sides of the ball, player for player, where are we "undertalented"?  LB probably, even though Davis has all the physical talent, but seemingly just doesn't know how to play the position. 

 

 

Can you, really?

 

WR: McLaurin, Samuel, Dotson

Grade: Very good, top 10ish receiving corp in the NFL

 

RB: Gibson, McKissick, Williams

Grade: BRob changes this a bit. But as is this is a lower end running back corp.

 

OL: Leno, Norwell, Turner, Roullier, Cosmi

Grade: Average across the board for their positions

 

Tight End: Logan Thomas

Grade: Middle of the pack. Average.

 

QB: Carson Wentz

Grade: Sometimes top 5, sometimes bottom 5. He's a top 12ish QB in the league I think when everything averages out during the regular season. So I'll say above average.

 

DE: Sweat and rotation

Grade: Average. Sweat can be high end but hasn't proven it.

 

DT: Allen and Payne

Grade: High end.

 

LB: Davis and Holcomb

Grade: Average. Davis is improving, Holcomb is the definition of average.

 

CB: Fuller and WJ3

Grade: Fuller is average. He has moments of great though, so I'll give a tick above average. He's no slouch. WJ3 has proven 100% nothing. He is below average so far.

 

FS: McCain

Grade: At best average.

 

SS: Forrest

Grade: Average. He is playing well but makes a lot of mistakes. Curl is above average if he were healthy.

 

Slot Corner: St Juste

Grade: Average. He is growing and will probably be pretty good down the line. Not there yet. 

[Alexa]

Going for two when you had no reason to is the stupidest thing Ron has done. Then he says that was what the analytics or mathematics said to do? Can you coach and run a game? Or do you need some nerds to tell you what to do? Maybe you should have them tell you when the best time to use the restroom as well.  I get so tired of this analytics BS and  what it tells  a coach what to do. You should know what to do, you've been coaching for a long time. What a complete and total failure that was. 

 

If you need that analytics stuff to tell you when to go for one or two or when to go for it on 4th down then you should not be coaching anywhere at any level. How'd that analytics stuff work out for Brandon Staley last year? It should have gotten his ass fired for what he did. 

 

What Ron did yesterday was just reckless and if I were Snyder his ass would be in my office today and I'd be giving his ass an ear full. 

[skins4eva]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

LB: Davis and Holcomb

Grade: Average. Davis is improving, Holcomb is the definition of average.

 

 

 

I have to respectfully disagree re: Davis and Holcomb.  They are not average.  Holcomb is a borderline backup to me in this league--certainly not a starter.  His awareness is poor, he has significant physical limitations and because his awareness and recognition are so poor, he's always a step beyond and is constantly getting manhandled out of the way; he's the number one reason why our rush defense has been awful.  Davis has some skills but at this stage, he should essentially be a 3rd down package LB and not an every down LB.  He also at times looks totally lost out there.

 

Essentially, because our LB unit is so terrible, it's as though we are playing defense with 9 guys.  Sadly, this is not a new development and yet for reasons which I find completely inexplicable, we decided not to upgrade an absolutely glaring weakness on the roster.  This weakness combined with JDR's awful scheme and completely predictable defense which doesn't even attempt to disguise coverages or blitzes or play to our strengths as a unit, will put a ceiling on our wins of about 7. 

 

It's a real shame too because if we had even a medicore defense that played with some aggression, we would be a playoff team.

[KDawg]

Just now, skins4eva said:

 

I have to respectfully disagree re: Davis and Holcomb.  They are not average.  Holcomb is a borderline backup to me in this league--certainly not a starter.  His awareness is poor, he has significant physical limitations and because his awareness and recognition are so poor, he's always a step beyond and is constantly getting manhandled out of the way; he's the number one reason why our rush defense has been awful.  Davis has some skills but at this stage, he should essentially be a 3rd down package LB and not an every down LB.  He also at times looks totally lost out there.

 

Essentially, because our LB unit is so terrible, it's as though we are playing defense with 9 guys.  Sadly, this is not a new development and yet for reasons which I find completely inexplicable, we decided not to upgrade an absolutely glaring weakness on the roster.  This weakness combined with JDR's awful scheme and completely predictable defense which doesn't even attempt to disguise coverages or blitzes or play to our strengths as a unit, will put a ceiling on our wins of about 7. 

 

It's a real shame too because if we had even a medicore defense that played with some aggression, we would be a playoff team.

 

Okay so this further solidifies my point. I think Holcomb is a backup in the league as well, but I also think what we are asking of him is beyond where he should be and that lowers his ability quite a bit. 

 

I've commented on Holcomb being out of position for years now. So not going to get me to argue that. 

[skins4eva]

9 minutes ago, Alexa said:

Going for two when you had no reason to is the stupidest thing Ron has done. Then he says that was what the analytics or mathematics said to do? Can you coach and run a game? Or do you need some nerds to tell you what to do? Maybe you should have them tell you when the best time to use the restroom as well.  I get so tired of this analytics BS and  what it tells  a coach what to do. You should know what to do, you've been coaching for a long time. What a complete and total failure that was. 

 

If you need that analytics stuff to tell you when to go for one or two or when to go for it on 4th down then you should not be coaching anywhere at any level. How'd that analytics stuff work out for Brandon Staley last year? It should have gotten his ass fired for what he did. 

 

What Ron did yesterday was just reckless and if I were Snyder his ass would be in my office today and I'd be giving his ass an ear full. 

 

Drives me insane.  Football is not baseball.  The baseball-ification of football is a terrible, terrible trend.  There are too many variables in football to make these analytics work in situations like what we saw on Sunday.  The only thing to do that day given the momentum of the game was to kick the XP.  That was it.