Next Day Thread: Lions Command Respect

[Warhead36]

Yeah I mostly agree with Kdawg's analysis except at LB, we are definitely bottom of the barrel. I can't imagine a worse LB tandem out there.

 

WRs I think can be better than top 10.

[skins4eva]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

Okay so this further solidifies my point. I think Holcomb is a backup in the league as well, but I also think what we are asking of him is beyond where he should be and that lowers his ability quite a bit. 

 

I've commented on Holcomb being out of position for years now. So not going to get me to argue that. 

 

We agree completely.  And it just brings me back to the point around roster construction and why we didnt look for upgrades at the LB position. 

[Alexa]

K Dawg...

 

Payne and Allen are not high end tackles. They are average at best. 

McCain is not an average player, he is a bad player. See the screen pass to Swift when he scored. 

Davis and Holcomb are not average. They're simply not any good. They're not starting caliber NFL LB's. 

Forrest and Curl are good tacklers but are not any good in coverage. Since this is a passing league that makes them below average players. 

 

[KDawg]

Just now, Alexa said:

K Dawg...

 

Payne and Allen are not high end tackles. They are average at best. 

McCain is not an average player, he is a bad player. See the screen pass to Swift when he scored. 

Davis and Holcomb are not average. They're simply not any good. They're not starting caliber NFL LB's. 

Forrest and Curl are good tacklers but are not any good in coverage. Since this is a passing league that makes them below average players. 

 

You're arguing my point. Thank you.

 

I was being overly kind to prove a point.

 

I can't stand McCain, think Sweat is overrated, think Davis is a long term project, think Holcomb is a backup.

 

You're wrong on Curl.

[skins4eva]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah I mostly agree with Kdawg's analysis except at LB, we are definitely bottom of the barrel. I can't imagine a worse LB tandem out there.

 

WRs I think can be better than top 10.

 

It's infuriating, isn't it?  What did it for me was reading that our other "starting" LBs, like Jon Bostic, had been cut by other teams. I mean not only are our guys not starter quality, they are arguably not backup quality.  I don't think Holcomb or Davis for that matter would even make a majority of NFL rosters.  That's how bad we are at the position.

[ColonialWBSkinsFan]

4 minutes ago, skins4eva said:

 

Drives me insane.  Football is not baseball.  The baseball-ification of football is a terrible, terrible trend.  There are too many variables in football to make these analytics work in situations like what we saw on Sunday.  The only thing to do that day given the momentum of the game was to kick the XP.  That was it. 

 

This is just flat-out WRONG!   Going for two when we cut it to 29-21 was ABSOLUTELY the right call.  And if Slye hadn't shanked the next PAT, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now.  We would still have been down by 8 with (another) chance to get the TD and 2pter to tie.  Slye butchering the PAT killed what was actually the right decision by Rivera on the previous TD.  

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, skins4eva said:

 

It's infuriating, isn't it?  What did it for me was reading that our other "starting" LBs, like Jon Bostic, had been cut by other teams. I mean not only are our guys not starter quality, they are arguably not backup quality.  I don't think Holcomb or Davis for that matter would even make a majority of NFL rosters.  That's how bad we are at the position.

 

We're starting to use Davis correctly in some ways and way incorrectly in others. He is a very good pass rusher from the LB spot. He is not great at covering top receivers man to man. But he is coming along and has a place on a roster.

 

Holcomb I think has a place as a backup on most NFL rosters.

 

But neither of our starting backers are actually starters.

 

That problem is alleviated if the DL is playing totally up to its standard. But Young is on the sideline, Sweat is invisible or not doing his job more times than should ever occur and Payne and Allen can't do everything (and sometimes they both get blown up in the run game).

 

So the DL, which could mask LB deficiencies, is vastly underperforming as a whole despite Allen and Payne playing relatively well. 

[skins4eva]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

You're arguing my point. Thank you.

 

I was being overly kind to prove a point.

 

I can't stand McCain, think Sweat is overrated, think Davis is a long term project, think Holcomb is a backup.

 

You're wrong on Curl.

 

Bottom line: the lack of talent is compounded by an awful, passive, predictable scheme.  What it means in reality is that we have a bottom 3 defense in this league and potentially a top 10 offense.  Any moron could have seen this developing over the past couple of seasons expect apparently, Rivera...

[KDawg]

Just now, skins4eva said:

 

Bottom line: the lack of talent is compounded by an awful, passive, predictable scheme.  What it means in reality is that we have a bottom 3 defense in this league and potentially a top 10 offense.  Any moron could have seen this developing over the past couple of seasons expect apparently, Rivera...

This is exactly what I am trying to prove. Thank you.

 

People think we are very talented. We aren't.

[Est.1974]

15 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

CB: Fuller and WJ3

Grade: Fuller is average. He has moments of great though, so I'll give a tick above average. He's no slouch. WJ3 has proven 100% nothing. He is below average so far

They have the 6th and 3rd highest salary cap hits in 2023 respectively. No chance they both survive the offseason cull. Not on their existing deals anyway.

 

It’s shocking how poorly this D has been constructed as both linebacker and safety is in a worse state on the roster than corner, which as noted is average at best.

[skins4eva]

2 minutes ago, ColonialWBSkinsFan said:

 

This is just flat-out WRONG!   Going for two when we cut it to 29-21 was ABSOLUTELY the right call.  And if Slye hadn't shanked the next PAT, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now.  We would still have been down by 8 with (another) chance to get the TD and 2pter to tie.  Slye butchering the PAT killed what was actually the right decision by Rivera on the previous TD.  

 

No, no it wasn't.  You have to look at OUR 2-point conversion rate, not the statistical average of 2-point conversion rates for the league.  That's the issue with importing baseball analytics to football: the number of variables in football make the overall statistical analysis misleading.

[Warhead36]

9 minutes ago, Alexa said:

K Dawg...

 

Payne and Allen are not high end tackles. They are average at best. 

McCain is not an average player, he is a bad player. See the screen pass to Swift when he scored. 

Davis and Holcomb are not average. They're simply not any good. They're not starting caliber NFL LB's. 

Forrest and Curl are good tacklers but are not any good in coverage. Since this is a passing league that makes them below average players. 

 

You're crazy if you think Payne and Allen are average at best. Allen is a top 5 DT. Payne might not be a star but he's definitely well above average.

 

I agree with you on the rest. Curl is okay in short area around the LoS coverage but can't run with guys down field(most Strong Safeties can't so I don't kill him for this).

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 We need a London Fletcher type desperately -- not just that type of player but his brain power. 

 

This is why I didn't understand the Davis pick at the time and what upsets me the most about him currently. They needed the brain of London Fletcher desperately before the pick. Why burn your first round draft pick on a guy that will make that problem worse? 

 

On some level I do understand the need to think outside of the usual box other teams do in, terms of personnel. That's how you find people others didn't or wouldn't. And at the same time I understand thinking, as a coach, you can coach a guy up and get the best out of him more often than not. But we have been criminally wrong on the defensive side of the ball way too often on both of those fronts and that **** is killing us. I almost wonder if Ron is worse as a coach or a personnel guy. 

[skinzplay]

10 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah I mostly agree with Kdawg's analysis except at LB, we are definitely bottom of the barrel. I can't imagine a worse LB tandem out there.

 

WRs I think can be better than top 10.

 A glaring need that was inexplicably left unaddressed.

[Warhead36]

9 minutes ago, skins4eva said:

 

No, no it wasn't.  You have to look at OUR 2-point conversion rate, not the statistical average of 2-point conversion rates for the league.  That's the issue with importing baseball analytics to football: the number of variables in football make the overall statistical analysis misleading.

I'm fine with going for 2 if you're down 1 to try to win the game(like the Giant game in 2020). Going for 2 when you cut the lead to 8 is foolish because it limits your options too much if you don't get it.

[Cooleyfan1993]

4 minutes ago, ColonialWBSkinsFan said:

 

This is just flat-out WRONG!   Going for two when we cut it to 29-21 was ABSOLUTELY the right call.  And if Slye hadn't shanked the next PAT, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now.  We would still have been down by 8 with (another) chance to get the TD and 2pter to tie.  Slye butchering the PAT killed what was actually the right decision by Rivera on the previous TD.  

I don’t think it’s the 2 point conversion call when the score was made 29-22, that people are mad about is it? Isn’t it the one after that? Or am I misremembering which touchdown the 2nd 2PC (that failed) happened at?

[dyst]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

This is exactly what I am trying to prove. Thank you.

 

People think we are very talented. We aren't.

Seriously who the hell thinks that. They should be ashamed of themselves. People really need to just watch the game and not overthink what they see.

 

If your eyes tell you a guy sucks, he probably sucks. A guy shouldn’t take 3 years to develop and a team shouldn’t take a damn generation to get competent.

[Xameil]

17 hours ago, BleedBNG said:

True. We need an extra point kicker 🤪

If only we had the giants kicker...

 

Oh wait...

[IrepDC]

4 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

I disagree. If he is scheming flood or levels concepts then the players have to execute. Get off jams, get to your space and create.

 

Yesterday there were two receivers in the literal same place. I have to rewatch but I don't believe either were disrupted terribly in their timing.

 

It's ridiculous to me that we are blaming coaching for player errors. There is plenty to criticize coaches for, I agree, but the piling on is overboard.

 

Why do people think our players are good enough for literally everything to be a coaching issue? We have drafted well and hit on a few free agents. But we also are overly loyal to players who can't get the job done and have too many mental lapses with our good players.

 

People saying Turner is our worst of the "big 3" is also wild. Turner has gotten more out of Taylor Heinicke, for instance, than he had any business doing. He has done a great job with Wentz. 

I can only speak gor myself in the discussion. I know I haven't made comments about our players not being responsible. I call them out also. You and I have agreed when discussing the responsibility of the players have. We only seem to disagree on the weaknesses in Turner's scheme.

 

Against Jacksonville we had a beautiful 3rd down conversion to Samuel where we had 3 guys all running timed crossers.. with perfect execution all 3 guys ended up about 7 yards apart crossing the middle and we got the first down to Samuel. If any of those guys gets slowed down though, there's going to be a traffic jam on that play and no one open. 

 

I like the concepts but also, as a defender, I know that playing our scheme physical is going to throw off all our concepts. That's why a bully ball team like the Lions made us look completely inept for a half of football. Turner's scheme can get too cute at times instead of taking advantage of basic mismatches or numbers to one side of the field. 

[Warhead36]

Bunch formations are super common in today's NFL and overall we're averaging around 28 PPG through two games. I can't really complain all that much. Every offense can be nitpicked on certain things.

[IrepDC]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

Bunch formations are super common in today's NFL and overall we're averaging around 28 PPG through two games. I can't really complain all that much. Every offense can be nitpicked on certain things.

At one point the Lions had more points than we had yards so it's fine to nitpick the offense. There's plenty of analysis/blame to go around. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, IrepDC said:

I can only speak gor myself in the discussion. I know I haven't made comments about our players not being responsible. I call them out also. You and I have agreed when discussing the responsibility of the players have. We only seem to disagree on the weaknesses in Turner's scheme.

 

Against Jacksonville we had a beautiful 3rd down conversion to Samuel where we had 3 guys all running timed crossers.. with perfect execution all 3 guys ended up about 7 yards apart crossing the middle and we got the first down to Samuel. If any of those guys gets slowed down though, there's going to be a traffic jam on that play and no one open. 

 

I like the concepts but also, as a defender, I know that playing our scheme physical is going to throw off all our concepts. That's why a bully ball team like the Lions made us look completely inept for a half of football. Turner's scheme can get too cute at times instead of taking advantage of basic mismatches or numbers to one side of the field. 

 

I agree with the last paragraph. So let's use that: It is the players responsibility to get off of the jam. However, this is where I agree with you: Why use those concepts if we are struggling to get off the jam? This is where Rivera's "we have to put guys in position" comments actually make sense.

 

Use short motions, get guys off the line, use a larger point man that excels at clearing jams, use a shiftier guy that is an excellent release guy to clear the jam, or just avoid that concept from that formation and use running backs to create the concepts you are trying to create.

 

But Turner has done a masterful job of getting guys open in most situations. 

 

I don't believe this happened on the play we are talking on but I'd have to go back and watch again. It may have. But I think someone ran the wrong route, or at least that was my immediate thought on seeing it in real time. 

[Alexa]

17 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

You're crazy if you think Payne and Allen are average at best. Allen is a top 5 DT. Payne might not be a star but he's definitely well above average.

 

I agree with you on the rest. Curl is okay in short area around the LoS coverage but can't run with guys down field(most Strong Safeties can't so I don't kill him for this).

Allen is not a top 5 tackle. He may be paid like one but he is not top 5. No way. 

[Warhead36]

7 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

At one point the Lions had more points than we had yards so it's fine to nitpick the offense. There's plenty of analysis/blame to go around. 

Yes I agree the offense was awful in the first half. AWFUL. But they made adjustments and gave us a chance in the second half.

 

The blame isn't proportional for yesterday's loss.

[HigSkin]