The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[tomwvr]

4 hours ago, Redskins 2021 said:

If dolphins flame out like I think they will over the next two games  do you think they go after Watson. Everyone believes they were very interested.  Do you think Tua worth looking at.  

I don’t think tua will be long for the league with his injury history 

3 hours ago, justice98 said:

I don't think any of these QBs get traded except for Watson eventually.  I think Rodgers stays in GB, Carr stays in LV, Wilson stays in SEA.  Oh, there'll be a lot of chatter and rumors and QB movement hysteria, but in the end, they'll all be wearing the same jerseys next year.

I think Wilson is gone . Not sure about the rest 

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

Rodgers or nothing—Confident Dan can get Washington in the running. Rodgers likely comes at no cost. 
 

No Rodgers, then draft Malik Willis and sign Marcus Mariota or Trubisky. 

 

Derek Carr. Yuck! Yuck is a bit extreme, but I rather go with a rookie versus committing to him for the next 4 years. 
 

 

 

I don’t think any qbs in this draft will ever be franchise quarterbacks.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[DWinzit]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

In that next range, the 5.00 to 7.99 group, I'd guess:

Sam Howell

Kaleb Eleby

Brock Purdy

Chase Garbers

Dustin Crum

Anthony Brown

Dorian Thompson-Robinson

 

Under 5.00: Carson Strong (Might be under 2.00)

Bailey Zappe

JT Daniels

Damn, they think less of Zappe and Strong than I do

I hope they all keep them and Howell lower like this

[Renegade7]

5 hours ago, Redskins 2021 said:

What will we have to give up to get this unknown QB. I would think it is some of the defensive linemen. The players we have to trade what are they worth vs the first round picks of other teams?

 

Not much if we keep climbing, arent we 9th right now?  We likely losing out, it won't stay 9, there will be a couple QBs to pick from even if it isn't the #1 prospect.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

Not really getting the love for Baker Mayfield some have in this thread. The guy stinks. And not only does he stink he cant stay healthy on top of it. Hard pass from me. The draft is where we need to get our next QB from. We need a first round QB with a 5th year option as the icing on the cake. Whoever the team feels is that guy go get him. I am done with retreads here. They have done nothing except eat up our salary cap for mediocre play at best. 

 

I am not a Baker guy either.  But speaking of which some Qb talk related to the Browns I found interesting

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/32952057/predicting-nfl-week-17-upsets-2022-breakouts-plus-league-buzz-baker-mayfield-future-super-bowl-picks-more

 

Let's talk through Baker Mayfield's situation. Is there any chance he's not Cleveland's 2022 starter?

 

Graziano: Well, sure. The Browns are on the hook for a fully guaranteed $18.858 million, which is the impediment, but if the Jets could get something for Sam Darnold in a trade last offseason, it's not ridiculous to think Cleveland could get something for Mayfield if it decided to move him. And if it didn't -- and it still wanted to bring in someone else to start over him -- it could certainly adjust that individual's contract to structure it with a low 2022 number so the overall quarterback cost wouldn't be out of control. The names of the guys potentially available on the 2022 offseason QB market are the kinds of names for which you would stretch.

 

Fowler: Agreed. The Browns are only as good as their options, though, and I'm not sure there's a clear path to acquiring some of the top passers available. Russell Wilson and Deshaun Watson have no-trade clauses, and they seem to have specific locations in mind. Those locations are not Cleveland. Aaron Rodgers is a West Coast guy. Maybe somebody else fits the Browns' mold. But running it back with Mayfield, who has been beat up all season and might have been pressing due to his contract, seems plausible. He's still capable. If the Browns decide they want to move on from him, they would need a trade partner in the worst way. I don't see them carrying him on the roster with a new quarterback -- a draft pick, maybe, but I just don't see that dynamic going well. And I do think he'd have a market. Where are you on that, Dan?

 

Graziano: I could see the case being made, based on what we know about Mayfield, that bringing in a younger quarterback to compete with him could be just the thing he needs to motivate him to improve. I'm just not sure I agree with it. First of all, it definitely needs to be mentioned here that he's playing hurt, and an accurate assessment of his abilities probably can't be made right now. And even if this is what you think he is, I'm not sure bringing in competition and getting his juices flowing is guaranteed to work. It seems to me the Browns built a roster that could win if it got competent quarterback play, and when it doesn't, they lose. They have to ask themselves (A) if they were right about the rest of the roster and (B) if they can count on consistently competent QB play from Mayfield. I don't envy their position.

 

Fowler: Not sure either of those questions have clear-cut answers right now, though the roster is strong in most areas. There's always the Chicago game plan of creating bridge-level competition with a hired gun type such as Nick Foles vs. Mitchell Trubisky. The Browns still have Case Keenum under contract, or they could go the Andy Dalton-Teddy Bridgewater-Ryan Fitzpatrick route. But that's hardly an inspired move. If Mayfield can somehow bottle up his good stretches -- 2018 post-Hue Jackson and 2020 -- and the Browns believe he can find that gear again, this marriage is salvageable.

[clskinsfan]

38 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

 

I don’t think any qbs in this draft will ever be franchise quarterbacks.

 

I disagree. I think 3 or 4 of them can.

[London Kev]

For the people hoping that there may be some kind of outside chance that we could get someone like Rodgers or Wilson, ask yourself this question; what would determine which team they would chose?

 

They're financially stable, so money wouldn't be the deciding factor (although it's not irrelevant). But I would say that the number one factor is, which team gives them the best shot at winning a super bowl. Lets be honest here, we ain't high on that list, so why would they even consider us? If you add in the bad publicity surrounding Snyder, the apparent toxic environment, the sexual allegations, the name change, etc. etc. We aren't in the running.

 

Until Deshaun Watson is cleared of the allegations (not just paid off his accusers) then I don't want him. If what has been alleged is true, then I hope he's jailed rather than receiving a new start with a new team.

 

I don't see the Browns moving on from Baker Mayfield just yet. He's got too much upside and he makes some awesome adverts.

 

I'm undecided on Derek Carr, he always seems to be near the top of many of the stat charts, but I when watch him play I ain't always that impressed, although if we went the trade route then he's probably the best option.

 

So now we come to the draft, and I'll be honest here, I don't know how to properly evaluate a QB. My knowledge mainly comes from watching highlight videos of QBs recommended by the more knowledgeable posters here on ES (you know who you are). It looks like we're going to be picking around the number ten slot (give or take a few places), and Matt Corral would be my current choice, This is subject to change depending on which highlight vid I've just watched.

 

In summary, I think that most of us realise that we desperately need a new QB, Carr would be a good (obtainable) choice, and/or draft the best QB available (possibly Corral).

[skinny21]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Carr has the team on his shoulders.  The Raiders run game is almost at the bottom of the league this year.    Their defense ranked as one of the worst in points allowed.   Heck they were worse than us on that front right until last Sunday's debacle.   They have a bad O line.

 

This roster would be an improvement for Carr.    The Raiders rely on Carr -- he's their James Bond.  He's their lead character.    He played Dallas without crapping the bed.  The Cowboys sacked him three times.  They got some heat on him.  Our O line > Raiders.   But he threw for almost 400 years and had a big game. 

 

He has 6 times the number of Heinicke's 300 yard games this year.  6:1  He has 4 games with 370 yards or more.

 

With him its not, hey Gibson lead the way and throw for 200 yards or so to complement him.  You can put the game on his shoulders.  

Yeah, as I said, I would have liked Carr’s chances far more than Heinicke (as in, I think Carr is a far better qb than Heinicke), so I’m not gonna address that part of your post. 

 

As to the roster, if you’re talking about our roster when healthy, yeah, I’d take ours over the Raiders.  Banged up as we were though, it was a poor matchup for us, particularly on offense, but also missing our #2 corner and 3 linebackers.  I felt that the oline we fielded against Dallas was pretty horrible and it would have been tough for any qb to succeed - it wasn’t an indictment of Carr.  Maybe the Raiders’ is even worse, but I have my doubts.  Add to that, I’d take Renfrow covered by Brown over Terry covered by Diggs, Jacobs and Drake over a banged up Gibson and Patterson, Waller (even though he only played 3 quarters) over RSJ/Bates is a no brainer, and a healthy Jackson over Carter or Humphries.  I could be wrong to think that way of course.

 

To your underlying/unsaid point though, Carr likely makes it harder for defenses to stack the line, so it’s possible he could make do with Terry and little else.  Or maybe Humphries, Carter, RSJ, Brown, etc are actually pretty good players held back by Heinicke.  Very possible Gibson/Patterson would face lighter boxes too.  Anyway, as I said, I like his chances far more than Heinicke.

[Redskins 2021]

I dont think browns will dump Mayfield unless they get something much better. The shortage of good QB is huge. I have to think someone like Kirk Cousin will cash in again after the bigger players have picked there new teams. 

Pittsburgh 

Clevland 

New Orleans 

Washington 

Carolina 

Denver 

All teams who think they can win now and want an upgrade to the QB position. It is going to be highly competitive to get this new QB and expensive. We would be lucky to get Baker Mayfield. The price for a mid level QB will be very high. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Redskins 2021

[tomwvr]

52 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

I disagree. I think 3 or 4 of them can.

This is going to be remembered as a bad draft for qbs.

the second worst In 20 years

 

not one guy in the first 2-3 Rounds will be more then a back up

[OMacAttack]

16 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

This is going to be remembered as a bad draft for qbs.

the second worst In 20 years

 

not one guy in the first 2-3 Rounds will be more then a back up

Well in that case no-one should bother drafting any QBs this year.

[Ball Security]

16 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

This is going to be remembered as a bad draft for qbs.

the second worst In 20 years

 

not one guy in the first 2-3 Rounds will be more then a back up

2007 and 2010 were both quite bad.

[Jericho]

6 hours ago, method man said:

LOL….

 

Carr has not elevated those around him? Agholor put up a career season playing with him in 2020, got paid and has done nothing this year. Waller did not do anything in Baltimore before coming to the Raiders. 
 

An issue on this board is that a lot of you have not been able to separate the Carr through 2018 from the Carr between 2019-2021. He has taken his game to another level. Past his prime? Go do some basic research

 

The Kirk comparisons don’t make a lot of sense either because, unlike Kirk, Carr has strong intangibles. His coaches and teammates love him

 

I think you're living in a fantasy land. Carr will be 31 next year. You really think the best is yet to come on him? I think Tom Brady is skewing people's perception of age. This team has trade for guys like Donovan McNabb (34), Alex Smith (34), and Mark Brunell (34) who all stopped being viable NFL starters almost as soon as they got here. Carr is at least 3 years younger, so I don't expect him to be washed up. But the idea he's going to be the start for 6-8 years is laughable. Ben Roethlisberger is a much better QB, and his last good year was at age 36. Eli Manning's last decent year was at 35. Phillip Rivers was pretty decent up until age 37 and at least passable for a few years there after. Cam Newton seems pretty washed at 30, though he's obviously a different type of QB. I think getting anything past 35 would be gravy, though Carr is starting from a much lower level than guys like Roethlisberger or Rivers.

 

My bigger concern is the fact Carr has played 8 seasons and still has just one actual winning season to his name. If he's so good, why are his teams never winning? Even Kirk Cousins has 4 winning seasons. Is there a reason people think Carr would come here and do better than he's ever done before and do it past his prime (and yes, the prime of an NFL QB is typically 27-28)? Oh, did I mention the team will likely have to fork over major assets to get him and then sign him to a massive extension? And hope he doesn't go all Joe Flacco and stop being even decent by age 33? All of this so maybe the team might be able to go 9-8 one year? Is this really the best plan?

[Jericho]

Just as an FYI, here's info on aging curves. Obviously every player is different, but for a typical player it is something to keep in mind:

 

Quarterbacks are almost at their peak at 27, but are at their highest level of performance at 28. You can also see that quarterbacks develop the most within their first four seasons, and are near the version of best player that they will ever be in their age 25 season. The peak period of quarterback performance seems to be from 26 to 30—five seasons.

After a quarterback slowly declines from their peak, they take their first significant hit in performance at 31 and their second noteworthy drop in performance at 34.

 

https://socalledfantasyexperts.com/aging-curve-nfl-offensive-players-every-single-position/

[Koolblue13]

Hes the 3rd highest ranked QB this year after losing his coach and his best receiver...again. we don't need him to improve. Just play like he is for 4 or 5 years and it's a huge win for us.

[method man]

1 hour ago, Jericho said:

 

I think you're living in a fantasy land. Carr will be 31 next year. You really think the best is yet to come on him? I think Tom Brady is skewing people's perception of age. This team has trade for guys like Donovan McNabb (34), Alex Smith (34), and Mark Brunell (34) who all stopped being viable NFL starters almost as soon as they got here. Carr is at least 3 years younger, so I don't expect him to be washed up. But the idea he's going to be the start for 6-8 years is laughable. Ben Roethlisberger is a much better QB, and his last good year was at age 36. Eli Manning's last decent year was at 35. Phillip Rivers was pretty decent up until age 37 and at least passable for a few years there after. Cam Newton seems pretty washed at 30, though he's obviously a different type of QB. I think getting anything past 35 would be gravy, though Carr is starting from a much lower level than guys like Roethlisberger or Rivers.

 

My bigger concern is the fact Carr has played 8 seasons and still has just one actual winning season to his name. If he's so good, why are his teams never winning? Even Kirk Cousins has 4 winning seasons. Is there a reason people think Carr would come here and do better than he's ever done before and do it past his prime (and yes, the prime of an NFL QB is typically 27-28)? Oh, did I mention the team will likely have to fork over major assets to get him and then sign him to a massive extension? And hope he doesn't go all Joe Flacco and stop being even decent by age 33? All of this so maybe the team might be able to go 9-8 one year? Is this really the best plan?

 

Koolblue stated it for me. If Carr can give us 4-5 seasons at or close to his current level of play, I'll be happy. Unlike Kirk in Minneapolis, the Raiders have consistently had some of the least talented rosters in the league the past several years (one that was average at best when Gruden took over and one that became well below average after Gruden traded away Mack, Cooper and others and drafted guys with 3rd round draft grades with the 1st round picks he got back for them). If you want a sense of why the Raiders are terrible from a talent standpoint, just look at their 2020 draft

[Jericho]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Hes the 3rd highest ranked QB this year after losing his coach and his best receiver...again. we don't need him to improve. Just play like he is for 4 or 5 years and it's a huge win for us.

 

3rd highest in what? Some made up statistic? So the list goes Mahomes...Rodgers...Carr? Anyone really think David Carr is the 3rd best QB in the NFL? Or even Top 10? What's the excuse for why the Raiders never win with Carr? Eight years and one winning season? It still seem bizarre to try and trade for a guy who never won on his existing team and do at the age when most QBs start to get worse. Hell, even Matt Stafford has 4 winning seasons with the craptastic Lions. And there might not be a worse run organization than the Lions. The idea that Washington is going to surround Carr with better players than the Raiders have over the last 8 years seems wildly optimistic.

[FootballZombie]

6 hours ago, London Kev said:

They're financially stable, so money wouldn't be the deciding factor (although it's not irrelevant). But I would say that the number one factor is, which team gives them the best shot at winning a super bowl.

 

We don't have a lot going for us as a premier destination, but we do have cap space.

 

Any QB like Rodgers, Wilson or Watson knows it will cost several picks to acquire them, and the team will have to additionally pay for the newly gained QB. Unless you can jump into a situation like Stafford to the Rams, where you are the last piece to a built team, your not looking at getting much in the way of additional help at the majority of destinations.

 

At the very least, w/ 60+ Mil in cap space, we can dangle the possibility of adding further talent. If your going to move to a non-stacked team, at least you can go somewhere that can continue to make additions considering all of your impact draft picks are likely gone.

 

I don't think we havr the allure of some of the more stacked teams that may be in the QB market, but al least we have some money to burn.

[Est.1974]

Rodgers has done Farve’s record, I could see him getting GB all the way this season then walking away. 

[KDawg]

3 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

We don't have a lot going for us as a premier destination, but we do have cap space.

 

Any QB like Rodgers, Wilson or Watson knows it will cost several picks to acquire them, and the team will have to additionally pay for the newly gained QB. Unless you can jump into a situation like Stafford to the Rams, where you are the last piece to a built team, your not looking at getting much in the way of additional help at the majority of destinations.

 

At the very least, w/ 60+ Mil in cap space, we can dangle the possibility of adding further talent. If your going to move to a non-stacked team, at least you can go somewhere that can continue to make additions considering all of your impact draft picks are likely gone.

 

I don't think we havr the allure of some of the more stacked teams that may be in the QB market, but al least we have some money to burn.

Our facilities stink. And that matters. 

[DWinzit]

7 hours ago, Jericho said:

 

3rd highest in what? Some made up statistic? So the list goes Mahomes...Rodgers...Carr? Anyone really think David Carr is the 3rd best QB in the NFL? Or even Top 10? What's the excuse for why the Raiders never win with Carr? Eight years and one winning season? It still seem bizarre to try and trade for a guy who never won on his existing team and do at the age when most QBs start to get worse. Hell, even Matt Stafford has 4 winning seasons with the craptastic Lions. And there might not be a worse run organization than the Lions. The idea that Washington is going to surround Carr with better players than the Raiders have over the last 8 years seems wildly optimistic.

Good post and reasons why I can't see Carr as the answer to our QB issues. I get that he might be a better option than many of the other available once you move past Rodgers, Wilson and Watson, but he hasn't done enough to be worth all you give up  to get him. He has not elevated his teams play enough to warrant the huge haul currently expected to get him.  Oh I am in on placing an offer for him, but not at the Raiders asking price...it is too high.

[DWinzit]

55 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Our facilities stink. And that matters. 

It will be interesting to see what FA's are going to want to come to Washington even with their large cap space.

 

This team needs to solve the QB position and fill many other holes.  Last year they could ride into the offseason with the defenses great play, and enthusiasm, reaching the playoffs and TH's end of year performances. that along with the level of respect Rivera was being given for his history, personality and even his cancer battle and biggest win of all!  This year we will have the Snyder sludge, no facility improvements, probably a losing season, teammates fighting during games, etc... If another team offers me a deal close to what Washington offers, I am going elsewhere.

 

That's why when it comes to the QB position, I think they are better off not giving up their top picks over the next couple years along with a chunk of their cap space on a Carr. Would rather they bring in a FA QB and draft one. 2 shots at hitting while still being able to draft other positions 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Yeah, as I said, I would have liked Carr’s chances far more than Heinicke (as in, I think Carr is a far better qb than Heinicke), so I’m not gonna address that part of your post. 

 

As to the roster, if you’re talking about our roster when healthy, yeah, I’d take ours over the Raiders.  Banged up as we were though, it was a poor matchup for us, particularly on offense, but also missing our #2 corner and 3 linebackers.  I felt that the oline we fielded against Dallas was pretty horrible and it would have been tough for any qb to succeed - it wasn’t an indictment of Carr.  Maybe the Raiders’ is even worse, but I have my doubts.  Add to that, I’d take Renfrow covered by Brown over Terry covered by Diggs, Jacobs and Drake over a banged up Gibson and Patterson, Waller (even though he only played 3 quarters) over RSJ/Bates is a no brainer, and a healthy Jackson over Carter or Humphries.  I could be wrong to think that way of course.

 

To your underlying/unsaid point though, Carr likely makes it harder for defenses to stack the line, so it’s possible he could make do with Terry and little else.  Or maybe Humphries, Carter, RSJ, Brown, etc are actually pretty good players held back by Heinicke.  Very possible Gibson/Patterson would face lighter boxes too.  Anyway, as I said, I like his chances far more than Heinicke.

 

Sure.  I wasn't talking purely about the roster against the Cowboys.  Overall the Raiders O line is really bad.  Our O line isn't.  But yeah the Cowboys D line overwhelmed our O line.  Raiders running game isn't hot either.  Carr is the main engine of that offense.  I wouldn't trade their supporting cast for ours by a long shot. 

 

I admit I am a bit annoyed at Heinicke's comments, both after the first game and the last, about the Cowboys.  He just gushes about them.   The best D line in the league.  They kill every team like that.  on and on.  Almost felt like a scene out of Rocky 4 where Heinicke looks at the Cowboys as Drago and he plays the role of Adrian telling Rocky "You Can't Win."   It would be one thing if he just centered on them being depleted for those games but the dude comes off to me like he basically wants to tell the world the Cowboys are so much better than us that its ridiculous.  Maybe that's true.  But it almost feels like Pedro Martinez back in the day gushing about the Yankees and he mockingly after that was labeled as the Yankees being his daddy.

 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

I wonder if Heinicke gushing about the Dallas line and Paynes Dads QB comments are related. 

 

Locker room definitely feels broken and lost.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I wonder if Heinicke gushing about the Dallas line and Paynes Dads QB comments are related. 

 

Locker room definitely feels broken and lost.

 

Don't know.  Heinicke really took up the gushing after the last game.  More so than after the first.  From what I understand Payne's dad said go get an "expletive" QB during the game so I am guessing Heinicke's comments aren't connected.

 

But wow, maybe i was in the wrong mood when I read some of his comments about Dallas but it annoyed the heck out of me. I cannot recall in all of my years reading about this team a player gush so much about a division rival.  I was waiting for Heinicke to cap it off by saying he looks forward to sitting at home, watching the playoffs and cheering on the uber talented Dallas team to win the SB because gosh they are so impressive and there is no better team in the NFL. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Skinsinparadise