The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[mistertim]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Catching up on this thread.  Was wondering where all the Josh Allen hate was coming from. I get it now its an indirect hit on Drake Maye. 

 

 

This is pretty much 100% accurate and we've now seen it recently several times in various iterations, including someone being absolutely fine with trading #2 to a divisional rival where they can draft Maye as their QB of the future, all as a way to indirectly pump up Daniels and bash Maye.

 

At this point I think I'm pretty close to believing that the Daniels Disciples are legitimately as bad as the Heinicke Hivers. Everything they say has to be filtered through the lens of the need to pump up Daniels and bash anyone else (mostly Maye in this case) over all other priorities. They'll do or say whatever to pump up their guy and detract from others.

 

And it's unfortunate, because I actually like Daniels but, just like the Hivers before them, the Disciples are close to getting me to dislike him through no real fault of his own.

[spjunkies]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

This is pretty much 100% accurate and we've now seen it recently several times in various iterations, including someone being absolutely fine with trading #2 to a divisional rival where they can draft Maye as their QB of the future, all as a way to indirectly pump up Daniels and bash Maye.

 

At this point I think I'm pretty close to believing that the Daniels Disciples are legitimately as bad as the Heinicke Hivers. Everything they say has to be filtered through the lens of the need to pump up Daniels and bash anyone else (mostly Maye in this case) over all other priorities. They'll do or say whatever to pump up their guy and detract from others.

 

And it's unfortunate, because I actually like Daniels but, just like the Hivers before them, the Disciples are close to getting me to dislike him through no real fault of his own.

 

At this point, all of the support for each of these prospects are over the top imo. People are going nuts over kids who will most likely be mediocre at best. It's a cruel league they're coming into. 

[mistertim]

7 minutes ago, spjunkies said:

 

At this point, all of the support for each of these prospects are over the top imo. People are going nuts over kids who will most likely be mediocre at best. It's a cruel league they're coming into. 

 

I get what you're saying, but I think this is a bit too much "both-side-ism". Most people who prefer Maye have made their arguments but don't just keep pumping them over and over and then doing anything they can to bash people who like someone else. I prefer Maye but I'd be fine if our FO decides Daniels is a better fit or prospect. Most people who prefer Maye are the same from what I've seen.

 

Many of the Daniels people, especially the LSU fan transplants, IMO are far more rabid about pumping their guy and detracting from Maye. To the point where they're saying Josh Allen sucks (since Maye has been compared in some ways to him) and suggesting that we trade the second pick to the Giants so they can pick Maye, as an indirect way to bash Maye.

 

It's loony, just like the Hivers of old.

Edited February 25 by mistertim

[FootballZombie]

7 minutes ago, spjunkies said:

At this point, all of the support for each of these prospects are over the top imo.

 

I am very confident there are people in this thread paying membership dues.

 

 

[Est.1974]

17 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

At this point I think I'm pretty close to believing that the Daniels Disciples are legitimately as bad as the Heinicke Hivers

The Minions of Maye aren’t much better. What about the lonely W* of Williams….?

[mistertim]

Just now, Est.1974 said:

The Minions of Maye aren’t much better. What about the lonely W* of Williams….?

 

Wankers?

 

 

 

 

😁

[spjunkies]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

I get what you're saying, but I think this is a bit too much "both-side-ism". Most people who prefer Maye have made their arguments but don't just keep pumping them over and over and then doing anything they can to bash people who like someone else. I prefer Maye but I'd be fine if our FO decides Daniels is a better fit or prospect. Most people who prefer Maye are the same from what I've seen.

 

Many of the Daniels people, especially the LSU fan transplants, IMO are far more rabid about pumping their guy and detracting from Maye. To the point where they're saying Josh Allen sucks (since Maye has been compared in some ways to him) and suggesting that we trade the second pick to the Giants so they can pick Maye, as an indirect way to bash Maye.

 

It's loony, just like the Hivers of old.

 

I'm in and out of this thread, but I am seeing over the top behavior from everyone, including the Maye supporters. 

 

From what we saw here a bit ago "guaranteed no problems off the field" to calling people who prefer Daniels cult members.

 

It's unnecessary mud slinging. People need to just post whatever they have to support their guy and drop the childish insults across the board. Yes, I have seen the same behavior from people who support the other guys. People need to stop being so freaking defensive. 

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

1 hour ago, seantaylor=god said:

Yeah I like Sam a lot as a backup and potential starter, and I love the Maye/Howell QB room, but you would be nuts not to take a mid to high 3rd. Comp pick third?

 

If we weren’t going to run some sort of air raid, I’d do it in a heartbeat but I think he’s doing to really excel in this scheme.

No offense, but why does Sam "excelling" in a new scheme matter?

 

Assuming he's on the roster, he's the 2nd or 3rd string QB.

 

It's just odd to me how many posters are concerned about his development....

 

[mistertim]

I'm curious where the belief that JJ McCarthy would need to sit a year or two comes from. I think he may actually be the most "pro-ready" QB out of the current 1st and 2nd tier of prospects. He played in a pro-style system and took lots of snaps from under center. IMO the issue with McCarthy is his somewhat smaller sample size due to being on a stacked team that didn't ask him to do a ton, and that raises major questions about what his true upside and ceiling is.

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

I'm curious where the belief that JJ McCarthy would need to sit a year or two comes from. I think he may actually be the most "pro-ready" QB out of the current 1st and 2nd tier of prospects. He played in a pro-style system and took lots of snaps from under center. IMO the issue with McCarthy is his somewhat smaller sample size due to being on a stacked team that didn't ask him to do a ton, and that raises major questions about what his true upside and ceiling is.

If Im Miami Id draft him and trade Tua. I think hed be a good fit for Dallas too.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

This, if true, and I agree with this, is why I can't totally grasp taking Maye or Daniels at #2 over trading back or just taking MHJ and one of the other QB's later in the 1st round or in round 2. For me, Maye, Daniels and CW need to be much better QB prospects than the next tier of QB's coming out because any of them could crap out as much as they could work out. Kurt Warner saying that evaluating these QB's on college film is basically impossible makes this whole QB draft thing seem like a crapshoot. Just seeing how the Niners lucked into Purdy after trading a fortune for Trey Lance seems to make Warner's point. 

I also don't feel like we can afford to waste this #2 pick again like what happened with Chase Young. We need to be sure we get an all pro player with this pick or with picks we get by trading back. All this being said, I understand the draft has risk but a player like MHJ doesn't seem like a prospect with a 60% chance we'll be wrong on . Maybe our analytics guy, Chen, will have some thoughts on all of this as well? 

Here's why:

 

1. The "big 3" are much better prospects than the next level, McCarthy, Penix, Nix.  I don't care what buzz the idiot draftnik community is trying to drive up about McCarthy, he's not in the same league as the "big 3"

2. While it might be a complete crap shoot, you have to find the best overall prospect your evaluation turns up  who is available and take a shot on that player. The better the prospect, the better the chance of success.

3. If you don't have a QB, you need to keep taking swings at it until you do.  And those swings have to be the best swings you can take. 

4. There are essentially 4 QBs who have had sustained, top 10-ish success picked after the 3rd round in the past 20 years: Brady, Purdy, Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins.  Maybe there's a guy or two I'm missing, but not a lot.

5. The best odds of getting a franchise QB is to take a shot at the top of the first round. It might not work. But you just keep taking shots.  

6. There is absolutely no sure bet at any position in the draft, not just QB.  We see busts in every position at every spot in the draft.  It's all a crap shoot.  About the most predictable position is Running Back. Everything else, it's tough to tell. 

 

I have no idea what Chen would say, except that if you don't have a QB, your statistical probability of losing and getting fired is much higher.  

[Jumbo]

Most everyone is correct to some extent, some more than others, on the posting behaviors and agendas.

 

One package you can wrap most of them up in is our familiar "no topic excites more cerebral contortions than QB."

 

It is always quite a ride. 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

If Im Miami Id draft him and trade Tua. I think hed be a good fit for Dallas too.

Dallas is totally stuck.  They have to just grit it and deal with extending Dak because his cap number is unworkable, and they can't cut him.  

 

It's a fantastic place for the rest of the division teams.  Dallas is going to have to cripple it's roster to pay a good but not great QB who has a propensity of choking. 

[Warhead36]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Here's why:

 

1. The "big 3" are much better prospects than the next level, McCarthy, Penix, Nix.  I don't care what buzz the idiot draftnik community is trying to drive up about McCarthy, he's not in the same league as the "big 3"

2. While it might be a complete crap shoot, you have to find the best overall prospect your evaluation turns up  who is available and take a shot on that player. The better the prospect, the better the chance of success.

3. If you don't have a QB, you need to keep taking swings at it until you do.  And those swings have to be the best swings you can take. 

4. There are essentially 4 QBs who have had sustained, top 10-ish success picked after the 3rd round in the past 20 years: Brady, Purdy, Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins.  Maybe there's a guy or two I'm missing, but not a lot.

5. The best odds of getting a franchise QB is to take a shot at the top of the first round. It might not work. But you just keep taking shots.  

6. There is absolutely no sure bet at any position in the draft, not just QB.  We see busts in every position at every spot in the draft.  It's all a crap shoot.  About the most predictable position is Running Back. Everything else, it's tough to tell. 

 

I have no idea what Chen would say, except that if you don't have a QB, your statistical probability of losing and getting fired is much higher.  

Pretty much all of this. 
 

Sticky this bad boy.

[seantaylor=god]

23 minutes ago, BRAVEONAWARPATH said:

No offense, but why does Sam "excelling" in a new scheme matter?

 

Assuming he's on the roster, he's the 2nd or 3rd string QB.

 

It's just odd to me how many posters are concerned about his development....

 

No offense taken.

 

I think having a high quality backup QB (sort of a “dirty starter” type like Foles) can be critical as the team gets better. It’s actually tough to find a good backup QB where you can win a few games and remain competitive if your starter gets nicked up. This can be seen in the backup QB market with pretty significant salaries for guys who are decent but not great.

 

Believe me, I’m not some Howell truther but he showed enough for me to not give him away for nothing with two years of control. 
 

And I won’t complain one bit if the new staff disagrees.

 

I think a third rounder would do if for me, because Howell still has starter potential for another team, but is pretty unlikely to play a truly significant role now that we can draft a blue chip guy at #2.

[MartinC]

36 minutes ago, BRAVEONAWARPATH said:

No offense, but why does Sam "excelling" in a new scheme matter?

 

Assuming he's on the roster, he's the 2nd or 3rd string QB.

 

It's just odd to me how many posters are concerned about his development....

 

If he’s the backup he’s one snap from playing. So if he’s here I certainly care about his development.

[Skins199021]

Why are the Maye people so defensive if people question his talent?

 

I said it months ago. Very weak schedule and very underwhelming numbers against said weak schedule 

 

Simply saying that he just has good height and size is the equivalent of saying “but this toy is shiny”

 

the Josh Allen and Joe Burro comparisons have been a bit delusional 

 

he actually seems like a bigger Sam Howell 

[mh86]

Nm

Edited February 25 by mh86

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, Skins199021 said:

Why are the Maye people so defensive if people question his talent?

 

I said it months ago. Very weak schedule and very underwhelming numbers against said weak schedule 

 

Simply saying that he just has good height and size is the equivalent of saying “but this toy is shiny”

 

the Josh Allen and Joe Burro comparisons have been a bit delusional 

 

he actually seems like a bigger Sam Howell 

 

How are you going to whine about people being "defensive" about a prospect while simultaneously giving such an incredibly lazy "analysis" of said prospect?

 

Talk about proving someone's point for them.

[Jumbo]

It's standard procedure for many people to persistently and assertively advocate for their #1 guy and they have their reasons pretty solidly entrenched by this time.

 

The thinking they've done on the matter is fairly settled, barring some new and significant data points yet to be considered or known.  

 

So part of their advocacy will be to show the counterpoints they think matter to a differing take. If that includes being too snarky, or too arrogant, or too dismissive, or with ridicule, or just blatantly insulting, you will reap what you sow from your fellows, and potentially from a moderator.

 

But the board generally supports at least some level of calling people out, within the rules, if their positions are widely and reasonably determined to be awfully weak.

 

Active, informed, informative, well-reasoned debate within the rules is the gold standard.

 

Rules 5,12, and 18 can be very valuable as guidance if read carefully and thoroughly.

 

But hubris and unmerited castigation directed at other members will not serve anyone well.

 

Your fellow posters are not your enemy just because they disagree with you. But how disagreements are argued makes all the difference.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

 

I think all 3 of the Big 3 can be that guy, so ultimately Im happy if we end up with any of em. This notion that Maye is some donkey compared to Willims and Daniels is just absurdly bad analysis. 

 

Yeah we are in a good spot.

 

I am not hitting this thread with everyone who mentions they like the QB I prefer among the 2 better.  I could.  But for me its boring to do that but to each their own.   If we go through mocks, tweets, leaks from scouts -- its pretty even with maybe a slight Maye leaning.  it doesn't matter though.  But it brings home the point that both are very high touted QBs.

 

i was listeniing to Logan Paulsen's latest podcast, he did a deep dive on both of these QBs with new access to All 22.  He started the process favoring one of the two QBs, but now he said he's drifting to the other QB on a deep dive but he's still deciding.  But his point is both dudes are very attractive prospects for different reasons.

 

54 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Here's why:

 

1. The "big 3" are much better prospects than the next level, McCarthy, Penix, Nix.  I don't care what buzz the idiot draftnik community is trying to drive up about McCarthy, he's not in the same league as the "big 3"

 

 

Exactly.

 

Spielman, same dude who helped hire the new GM talked about this in a recent interview.  He has a clear #1, #2 and #3 in this grouping.  And his hard point is that after those three there is a clear drop off. 

Edited February 25 by Skinsinparadise

[FootballZombie]

14 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

But hubris and unmerited castigation directed at other members will not serve anyone well.

 

Oh, but it serves me very, very well.

 

/s

Edited February 25 by FootballZombie

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

39 minutes ago, MartinC said:

If he’s the backup he’s one snap from playing. So if he’s here I certainly care about his development.

I agree...but I get the vibe some folk care more about Sam's development than the presumed starter.

 

 

[Rolo Tomasie]

45 minutes ago, Skins199021 said:

Why are the Maye people so defensive if people question his talent?

 

I said it months ago. Very weak schedule and very underwhelming numbers against said weak schedule 

 

Simply saying that he just has good height and size is the equivalent of saying “but this toy is shiny”

 

the Josh Allen and Joe Burro comparisons have been a bit delusional 

 

he actually seems like a bigger Sam Howell 

You said Maye cannot possibly be compared to Josh Allen because he had a "weak schedule and very underwhelming numbers." 

 

His last season at Wyoming Josh Allen completed 56% of his passes for 1812 yards, 16 touchdowns and 6 interceptions, and rushed for 204 yards. In the WAC.

 

I'm wondering if, by your criteria, Josh Allen can be compared to Josh Allen?

Edited February 25 by Rolo Tomasie

[gooseneck]