The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, MartinC said:

I don’t think you need elite physical traits to become an elite QB. If look back over time at the guys with gold jackets not all of them are 6’ 4” with a rocket for an arm and a 4.4 40.

 

I still consider Joe Montana the best QB I’ve seen play - with due respect to Brady - and he was marginal physically. It’s the mental ability to process, understand what a D is doing and make consistently good decisions under physical and mental pressure that separates the great QBs. More recently Drew Brees was under sized, no threat to run with a good but not great arm.

 

That doesn’t mean Howell can become elite, he’s far more likely to have a ceiling as an average starter and a floor as a good backup. But it’s what’s going on between his ears - and the coaching and supporting cast - that will determine what that ceiling is.

 

I agree. I don't mean though purely physical skills.  It can involve special processing skills vision and accuracy,  Joe Burrow for example is that.  He doesn't have elite physical traits.

 

I don't see it with Howell as to special on anything really.  i think he's good on some fronts.  That's why I consider myself still optimistic on Howell.  I hear a lot of Minshew comps.  A dude who can be a solid -- average QB perhaps some say.  For me I see good arm strength, good mobility -- some good moments with accuracy but is not consistent.  I'd still bet on "good" for Howell over time.

 

Howell to me doesn't scream great to me.  Now I could be wrong.  But if I am right, him ending up good, I'd take it.  But i want an apples to apples comparison with players in this draf who at leastby reputation are more talented than him.

 

As much as I defended Howell on this thread.  I do find it relevant as to my own opinion that he had the easiest DVOA schedule for opposing defenses until recently.  And now that the defenses have gotten good, he's struggled.  I do think a seperator between great QBs and other QBs who aren't that is how well do they do against top competition?  Even with Kirk, it was different for him when he played top defenses.  He wasn't the same guy. Not even close.  Not that Tom Brady per se would kill great defenses but great QBs like him would more likely play well against top defenses than good QBs would.

 

Granted Sam is still learning so its still projecting.  But he can change my mind that greatness is in the offing if he plays well in the last three games considering these are good defenses.

 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

14 hours ago, Chris 44 said:

Going to sound weird for me to say this since I'm in the build a team around the quaterback group, but I do agree with what your saying to an extent, however  my counter would be teams like SF and Philadelphia. I don't think either team has a top QB but look where they are at due to the supporting cast. If your stud QB gets hurt and you don't have a good team your definetly not going anywhere. I understand that the great QB will get you further in the playoffs such as a Mahomes or Allen but your one injury away from mediocrity again.

 

Both teams have arguably elite supporting casts.  Not just good supporting casts.

 

And some would argue that the 49ers hit lightening in the bottle with Purdy.  That he's the real deal. Not just some dude who is being carried by their supporting cast.

 

Some would say ditto about Hurts until his recent slump.  

 

It's not like Nick Mullens, Trey Lance etc plugged and played their way to success in SF.  This team destroyed SF with Miullens as their QB.  Wentz sucked at the end in Phlly.

 

I do think if you have an elite supporting cast with a good QB you can go far.  But building an elite supporting cast isn't easy let alone keeping a roster together like that.  You need to be either amazing at drafting or wheel and deel as the best GM in the game ala Howie Roseman where you are always adding draft capital so you can replenish with cheap talent.

 

There is a reason why Adam Peters is mentioned in those future GM articles as the best evaluator and Howie Roseman as the best GM.  Those guys are special at their job. 

 

I know its not a philosophy of the Eagles of just finding a decent QB and that's it.  Care more about the supporting cast.  I read a long article about how they are obsessed with QB play.  And will keep swinging at that spot.  SF clearly wants to shoot for the fences at that spot considering what they gave up for Lance.  Lance is a bust but he's a high tools guy -- a swing for the fences move.

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[TrustTheProcessHTTR]

I feel because Snyder wanted to change the narrative from the spending free fall of the 2000 season that the last 10-15 years outside of trading up for Rg3 we've become the king of the bargain basement shoppers. We clearly went the extreme opposite in how we approach the draft and free agency and coaches. It's time to stop being 3rd class and start becoming first class. It can be flipped on a dime as Detroit, Rams, Miami and other teams that recently have shown the willingness to go after what they want HARD to WIN immediately. This doesn't even include Dallas and Philly who has mopped the floor with us in terms of acquiring personnel the last 30 years. With this owner ship change, new stadium on the horizon, AND with season tickets going up there needs to be excitement around the team starting off with GM, then coach, then QB. If we are going to pay a QB 40-70mill a year he better be a franchise top 5-7 QB caliber. The Purdys and Hurts are anomalies. 

[mac8887]

I really want Jacoby to get a start and get to play the entire game. It would help to see if eb is really as bad as some think. It would be a shame if the reason his offense stinks is because the qb made it stink, and we end getting rid of him just to see him flourish elsewhere. I'd like to see Jacoby get at least 2 games so that we can fairly evaluate both Sam and eb. If Jacoby were to do very well, it would show us the offense that we run does work and ebs stock goes up to potentially keep here as head coach, and it would be very telling when it comes to Sam as well. If Jacoby stinks it up as badly or more than what we've seen with sam, then we can be assured that eb is not a good candidate for here, and it would show us that Sam might not be as bad as he has looked, and it could be the coach was hindering him instead of helping. I've got a hunch that eb might end up being our coach next year and he will go get his qb. I don't think eb really likes Sam that much and if it were his decision they would roll with Jacoby. If eb were to get a job as head coach somewhere else it would be very telling if he doesn't make a trade offer for Sam. This year sucks, the team is a loser and on top of that ron told us we had at least found our franchise qb, and ever since then Howells play has dropped off. It's like ron jinxed him.

[DWinzit]

33 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

I really want Jacoby to get a start and get to play the entire game. It would help to see if eb is really as bad as some think. It would be a shame if the reason his offense stinks is because the qb made it stink, and we end getting rid of him just to see him flourish elsewhere. I'd like to see Jacoby get at least 2 games so that we can fairly evaluate both Sam and eb. If Jacoby were to do very well, it would show us the offense that we run does work and ebs stock goes up to potentially keep here as head coach, and it would be very telling when it comes to Sam as well. If Jacoby stinks it up as badly or more than what we've seen with sam, then we can be assured that eb is not a good candidate for here, and it would show us that Sam might not be as bad as he has looked, and it could be the coach was hindering him instead of helping. I've got a hunch that eb might end up being our coach next year and he will go get his qb. I don't think eb really likes Sam that much and if it were his decision they would roll with Jacoby. If eb were to get a job as head coach somewhere else it would be very telling if he doesn't make a trade offer for Sam. This year sucks, the team is a loser and on top of that ron told us we had at least found our franchise qb, and ever since then Howells play has dropped off. It's like ron jinxed him.

I understand your point but I am happy Howell will be back in. I just wish they could protect him a little better and he get back to where he was a month ago making better decisions. Now that Jacoby's door has been opened and more mystic has been created by his play at the end of the game, there is a better chance of seeing him enter the game depending on how it is going. This Jets D is going to be vicious so we will see. 

[mac8887]

Just now, DWinzit said:

I understand your point but I am happy Howell will be back in. I just wish they could protect him a little better and he get back to where he was a month ago making better decisions. Now that Jacoby's door has been opened and more mystic has been created by his play at the end of the game, there is a better chance of seeing him enter the game depending on how it is going. This Jets D is going to be vicious so we will see. 

My whole thing is we no that Sam+eb= not good, especially against good defense. We will not be able to evaluate Sam without eb this year but we can evaluate eb without Sam. We are out of contention so we should be evaluating everything we can for next year

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I’d recommend anyone that thinks they need to see Brissett to assess EB, follow Mark Bullock on Twitter and go back through the season where he’s broken down Sam’s play and also some dives into EB’s scheming, playcalling, etc.

 

He’s a professional, so he’s not going to crush anyone if that’s what you are looking for.  But many of his breakdowns align with the thought that Sam has had a hand tied behind his back all season long, whether that’s scheme, playcalls, receivers, line, etc.  It’s just been a lethal combination and everyone has a hand in it, including Sam.  
 

New system that receivers clearly struggle with, poor talent at OL and TE, and a green QB whose only real flaw is the one that can’t be afforded given everything else going on.

[RWJ]

I can't see Sam playing well with our OL trying to give him time to throw when Eric "Throw the ball 75% of the time" Bienemy calls the plays.  If this team would have tried to run the ball more often, we would have probably won 2 or 3 more games.  JMO.  We have a chance to win today and I hope we don't and we will get our butts handed ot us the last two games of the season.  EB isn't going to change his play calling.  It would truly surprise me if he did and he has to go.  

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

31 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

My whole thing is we no that Sam+eb= not good, especially against good defense. We will not be able to evaluate Sam without eb this year but we can evaluate eb without Sam. We are out of contention so we should be evaluating everything we can for next year

Spoiler alert: EB has been evaluated this year and will be fired in a couple of weeks. 

[MartinC]

Thoughts with Sam has he lines up today in shotgun behind Nick Gates wondering if the snap will bounce once or twice before it reaches him and if the ball will arrive before the DT.

[skinny21]

12 hours ago, MartinC said:

I don’t think you need elite physical traits to become an elite QB. If look back over time at the guys with gold jackets not all of them are 6’ 4” with a rocket for an arm and a 4.4 40.

 

I still consider Joe Montana the best QB I’ve seen play - with due respect to Brady - and he was marginal physically. It’s the mental ability to process, understand what a D is doing and make consistently good decisions under physical and mental pressure that separates the great QBs. More recently Drew Brees was under sized, no threat to run with a good but not great arm.

 

That doesn’t mean Howell can become elite, he’s far more likely to have a ceiling as an average starter and a floor as a good backup. But it’s what’s going on between his ears - and the coaching and supporting cast - that will determine what that ceiling is.

I’m right with you on all of this… and a little surprised I didn’t end up a 49ers fan given how much I loved watching Montana, and then Young, play.

 

Frankly, the odds of any qb becoming elite is minute, though that shouldn’t prevent trying to land/groom one to that end.

I don’t blame those that think Sam can’t/won’t become an elite qb - I strongly doubt it myself (and I’m not even convinced he can/will become a “good” qb either - this staff may well have ruined him).  The one aspect that gives me pause on that negative line of thinking, beyond having been dealt a horrendous hand this year, is his mental make up.  The combo of self correcting, not getting phased (by turnovers, big games, etc), and the ability to perform in pressure situations (2 minute drills)… those things are pretty huge.  

 

Combine all of that with plus arm talent and athleticism, and him showing the ability to place the ball accurately (could use more consistency here, but that could be more about his supporting cast), and all that’s left, IMO, is - can he become comfortable enough in an offense (he may well not get that opportunity) and can he dissect defenses quickly enough?  The million dollar question(s).

 

 

[Conn]

3 hours ago, mac8887 said:

I've got a hunch that eb might end up being our coach next year

 

What did you have for dinner last night? Might just be bubble guts you’re feeling

[88Comrade2000]

4 hours ago, mac8887 said:

I really want Jacoby to get a start and get to play the entire game. It would help to see if eb is really as bad as some think. It would be a shame if the reason his offense stinks is because the qb made it stink, and we end getting rid of him just to see him flourish elsewhere. I'd like to see Jacoby get at least 2 games so that we can fairly evaluate both Sam and eb. If Jacoby were to do very well, it would show us the offense that we run does work and ebs stock goes up to potentially keep here as head coach, and it would be very telling when it comes to Sam as well. If Jacoby stinks it up as badly or more than what we've seen with sam, then we can be assured that eb is not a good candidate for here, and it would show us that Sam might not be as bad as he has looked, and it could be the coach was hindering him instead of helping. I've got a hunch that eb might end up being our coach next year and he will go get his qb. I don't think eb really likes Sam that much and if it were his decision they would roll with Jacoby. If eb were to get a job as head coach somewhere else it would be very telling if he doesn't make a trade offer for Sam. This year sucks, the team is a loser and on top of that ron told us we had at least found our franchise qb, and ever since then Howells play has dropped off. It's like ron jinxed him.

EB maybe a coach in 24 but it won’t be here. He may get a courtesy interview to meet Rooney rule.  The entire staff will be discarded on Jan. 8.

[HigSkin]

 

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

I'm convinced this team thrashed Howell's confidence. 

[RWJ]

24 minutes ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

I'm convinced this team thrashed Howell's confidence. 

OL, play calling (EB) and Howell's inexperience have caused him to have Ramsey 2.0 syndrome thus far in his career. 

[BrentMeisterGeneral]

Don’t think Howell is bad, but don’t think he’s shown enough to ignore QB in R1 this off season, sorry.

[RWJ]

3 minutes ago, BrentMeisterGeneral said:

Don’t think Howell is bad, but don’t think he’s shown enough to ignore QB in R1 this off season, sorry.

I agree.  He's been beaten up physically and mentally.  We have to spend our 1st on a new QB.  Then the next 3 out of 4 picks MUST be OL. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by RWJ

[justice98]

It's over for Howell.  He's played his way out of QB1 next year.  I dont see any coach coming in thinking we're set at QB and you just need to put pieces around him.  

 

Last 5 weeks:

51% completion
168 ypg
4.9 ypa
2TDs/8 INTs

 

Not exactly trending upward.  That is Zach Wilson-esque.  Except Wilson never had a stretch that bad.  And that's actually true, I looked it up.  lol

And if Bieniemy's key to a HC gig was developing Howell, he can forget it.

[Skinsinparadise]

So Rivera hinges his whole season on hey I found this franchise its QB.  And then benches him two weeks in a row and makes the case that the journeyman QB is the better QB.  Make it make sense from Rivera's point of view?

Edited December 24, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

Howell is toast. Trade him for whatever you can get and start over with a new QB drafted in the top 5

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So Rivera hinges his whole season on hey I found this franchise its QB.  And then benches him two weeks in a row and makes the case that the journeyman QB is the better QB.  Make it make sense from Rivera's point of view?

You can’t. 
 

Wylie went out when Brissett came in, too, so that certainly helped Brissett. Oh, and we ran the ball on 3rd and 1 from under center.

 

Someone in the game day thread surmised that they were calling plays differently because they didn’t believe in Howell but believe in Brissett. 
 

Let’s say I buy that.

 

Why are we then throwing 50+ times with a guy they don’t believe in and only running 33% of the time?

 

None of it makes sense.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Anselmheifer]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So Rivera hinges his whole season on hey I found this franchise its QB.  And then benches him two weeks in a row and makes the case that the journeyman QB is the better QB.  Make it make sense from Rivera's point of view?

It’s like you said elsewhere I think. He’s just desperate to get a win for himself instead of going out on a massive losing streak and retiring with a losing record overall. Thank god we play good teams the next two weeks. I wish we would sit some people. 
 

Also, no way we don’t go QB in rd one.

 

I feel bad for Sam, but I think he’s done. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Anselmheifer

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

In other words, "We're making a change."