The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Koolblue13]

16 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Steve Spurrier says Hi! 
 

(With similar results in terms of (not) protecting the QB).

Have we got any stats on 5 versus 6 versus max protects? 
 

In a WCO most common protection is a 6 man ‘Jet’ protection. If we are running a ton of 5 man ‘scat’ that actually puts more pressure on the QB to read hot and receivers to be ready to break off routes etc. 

 

With a young QB and first year in the offense the conventional thing to do would be run more 6 and 7 man protections and give him easier reads and more protection. Especially with an iffy at best O’line.

It definitely feels very "Fun and Gun/East Coast offense" and yet guys still aren't getting open quick enough. I don't know if that's play design or what. 

 

I'm hoping this week we see Armah and CRod in more to block and sneak out. We've got the worst of both worlds right now.

[IrepDC]

We have had more successful 2 minute drills, at the end of the half and end of the game, than I remember in the past decade. We've had more successful screen plays than I remember as a fan of this team. Those are two huge credits to EB that I tend to keep in mind. 

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

Steve Spurrier says Hi! 
 

(With similar results in terms of (not) protecting the QB).

Have we got any stats on 5 versus 6 versus max protects? 
 

In a WCO most common protection is a 6 man ‘Jet’ protection. If we are running a ton of 5 man ‘scat’ that actually puts more pressure on the QB to read hot and receivers to be ready to break off routes etc. 

 

With a young QB and first year in the offense the conventional thing to do would be run more 6 and 7 man protections and give him easier reads and more protection. Especially with an iffy at best O’line.

 

Good point, but that's only against a blitz, mainly if they are bringing more than one.  Otherwise it's probably easier for the QB to read the coverage if you are generating more one on ones via five route concepts.  To me, the easiest read for a QB is just a straightforward look at the safeties and figuring out who has single coverage and going there.  That's how teams have been killing us this year.  The QBs have never had to look past their first option on their big plays.

 

But you're right that the more conventional way to protect and develop an inexperienced QB would be to run bigger protections and fewer routes.  I honestly don't understand why we aren't doing that. It kind of suggests that Bieniemy doesn't trust our receivers to generate wins against double coverages.  But even if that's valid, why have more trust in the OL to win against four or five man rushes?

[MartinC]

12 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

.  To me, the easiest read for a QB is just a straightforward look at the safeties and figuring out who has single coverage and going there.  That's how teams have been killing us this year.  The QBs have never had to look past their first option on their big plays.

 

Yep. First look is almost always is the middle of the field open or closed, look for man or zone and then read the rotation of the safeties. 
 

I don’t think Sam’s issues have been so much about reading coverage - he just doesn’t always seem to see when and where he is hot. That and some complete whiffs by the O’line. 
 

I would like to see us run some more outside zone from under centre and get Sam on the move off play action from that. Change the launch point and give him some easy high/low half field reads. 
 

I like the run game design and calls even less than the protection design!

[Voice_of_Reason]

19 hours ago, MartinC said:

Where has this idea come from we are over targeting TEs? 
 

We have targeted TEs 47 times out of 179 targets. Thats 26%.

 

I checked Dallas at random to do a comparison. Their TEs have 36 out of 161 targets. So 22%. 

EB haters spreading stupidity they found on Twitter, sorry, X, because everything you read on the internet is true.  
 

If you have a preconceived notion you can ALWAYS find ways to defend it.  Either in your head or on the internet.  Doesn’t make it right…

[Thinking Skins]

Ok, so I couldn't find the data anywhere so I went through the okay by play and gathered it myself. Here's what I found on Howell and DPI calls. 

 

1 against Arizona to Terry 37 yards

1 against Denver to Terry 7 yards

0 against Buffalo

1 against Philly 9 yards to Dotson

1 against Philly 5 years to Terry

1 against Chicago to Terry 25

yards

 

That's him using. Terry and Dotson in ways that's not showing up in stats.

74 unaccounted for yards for Terry and

46 unaccounted for yards for Dotson.

 

Not to mention the attempts that don't get counted either. 

 

I'm not saying that he couldn't use them more but I think he is doing a good job of both spreading the ball around and finding his weapons. 

 

I keep stressing to my friends who are in the slums after Thursday that this man (Howell) almost singlehandedly brought us back into the game. That's putting the team in his shoulders and being a leader when we need him and when coach Ron is just saying duh. 

[FootballZombie]

35 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

1 against Philly 5 years to Terry

 

To this very day it is said that the refs are still moving those chains...

 

lol

[MartinC]

4 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

To this very day it is said that the refs are still moving those chains...

 

lol

When they have finished I plan to challenge the spot.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Remember the season Alex Smith had in this offense where he did t throw a single TD to a WR when he was playing for Reid in KC?

 

Part of that is Smith taking check-downs too quickly.  But part of it is the way the offense is constructed.  The defense can take things away from any offense, this version of the WCO puts even more emphasis on just getting to the reads to the TEs and Backs and not waiting for WRs to come open.  Yhe theory being, if you do that enough eventually the defense will adjust coverage and your reads will take you back to the WRs.

 

This is opposite of the Coryell system which is predicated on extending the field vertically and running the ball. 
 

It’s an entirely different offensive philosophy than we’ve ever had here.  
 

Of the WCO’s we’ve had here since 2000, this is how it broke out:

 

Marty: WCO blended with and featuring a power running game.  

Zorn: It was honestly hard to tell

what the hell his offense was because he was a dope and the personnel he inherited and what Dan and Vinny gave him were completely disjointed. 

 

Shanahan: WCO blended with and featuring a zone stretch running game.

 

Jay: this one is odd because Jay’s a disciple of Jon who’s off the Reid tree.  But his version was much more run oriented on early downs rather than using the short pass as an extension of the run game, and I’m not entirely sure where that came from because Jon’s offense was more “pure” WCO.

 

We didn’t have a WCO prior to Marty in 2000. 

Gibbs, Al Saunders and Scott Turner ran some version of the Coryell system. 

 

This is just going to look and feel different than anything we’ve seen before, and there is going to be an adjustment period. 
 

Also, It’s a wildly complicated offense to master.  It takes 2-3 years for a team to really “get it.”  We’re seeing the infancy. 
 

My bet is as the offense and particularly Howell gets more experience, you’re going to see things develop down field more often. That’s a guess, but it’s a pretty solid one based on what we’ve seen as these offenses and young QBs are developed over time. 

 

[skinny21]

I’ll add that if you look at a guy like Purdy, while young/inexperienced, he had the benefit of most other offensive players having experience in the system.  And though the qb is the most important piece, having guys with a deeper understanding of what the offense is trying to do - all of the nuances on a play-by-play basis, including dealing with coverages, leverages, creating space for others, etc., can only help.

[Skinsinparadise]

I am not a Daniel Jones guy but agree on the point below.  Giants have somewhat the excuse of no Andrew Thomas for almost every snap of the season, lost JMS, too.

 

But still they've not given him much of a line.  And I know some here say it doesn't matter.  But IMO it matters and big time so.

 

This team and the Giants have been living parallel lives this season.  Yeah we've won one more game but they've had the harder schedudle.  

 

Next weeks match up should be interesting.  If Thomas and Barkey are back, I think NY wins.  If they are still out, we win.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

This is where stats can be somewhat deceiving, and averages can be somewhat complicated.  

 

I haven't seen the stat recently, but after the Buffalo game, but there was some stat which showed the average length of time before he got sacked was higher than anybody else in the league.

 

What I think we're seeing is the inconsistencies of a young QB growing in a system.  At times, he's really decisive and gets the ball out and all is good.

 

At other times, he holds onto it, and gets in trouble.

 

You lose the nuance in a season average of just "time to throw."

 

There's no one statistic in football which is a good measure of anything.  You have to look at 5 or 6 things in combination.  Which, of course, is hard in a twitter world. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Own up to this @wit33 we know its you 😎

 

 

 

[KDawg]

Malik Willis came into the game in the fourth quarter for Tennessee. He’s been sacked 4 times already.

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Malik Willis came into the game in the fourth quarter for Tennessee. He’s been sacked 4 times already.

Thor Nystrom bet his reputation the NFL screwed up by not having Malik Willis as the first pick chosen.  Said he'd never been so sure of anything since the league passed on Lamar Jackson.  (Who still went in the first round.)

 

 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Thor Nystrom bet his reputation the NFL screwed up by not having Malik Willis as the first pick chosen.  Said he'd never been so sure of anything since the league passed on Lamar Jackson.  (Who still went in the first round.)

 

 

You love Thor. 

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am not a Daniel Jones guy but agree on the point below.  Giants have somewhat the excuse of no Andrew Thomas for almost every snap of the season, lost JMS, too.

 

But still they've not given him much of a line.  And I know some here say it doesn't matter.  But IMO it matters and big time so.

 

This team and the Giants have been living parallel lives this season.  Yeah we've won one more game but they've had the harder schedudle.  

 

Next weeks match up should be interesting.  If Thomas and Barkey are back, I think NY wins.  If they are still out, we win.

 

 

 

 

 

Fair to point out we didn’t have an Andrew Thomas to start with! Leno is a lower end starting T - he IS a starting calibre T but he’s bottom third and probably on the decline. Wylie is not a starting calibre T. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, KDawg said:

You love Thor. 

Actually, I don't really like the MCU at all.  

 

Never been in to comic books or the comic book movie industrial complex.  Which, I'm hoping, is dead or dying.  

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Fair to point out we didn’t have an Andrew Thomas to start with! Leno is a lower end starting T - he IS a starting calibre T but he’s bottom third and probably on the decline. Wylie is not a starting calibre T. 

 

True.  We need to get our own Andrew Thomas and more.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

True.  We need to get our own Andrew Thomas and more.

I have a better idea: Let's draft defensive players in 6 of 7 drafts in the first round, and 2 DBs in the first 2 rounds of the 2023 draft.

 

[Koolblue13]

The Giants OL problems this year are similar to ours last year.

 

Our issue is that our starters mostly just suck.

[Llevron]

@FootballZombie ima get back to you after the game I know it sucks to put that much in a post and people not respond. Life just got crazy for a sec my bad 

[Stihl89]

I just don’t see anything that says he’s going to be a top 10 QB. He’s looking more and more like Derrick Carr tier with every game. At best. The amount of sacks is just going to always hold him back. It’s just who he is. 
 

You can’t sign him to a large contract. It’s going to hamstring you so much. 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

26 minutes ago, Stihl89 said:

You can’t sign him to a large contract. It’s going to hamstring you so much. 

It’s cool we have time to make up our minds about him. Let’s do that instead maybe. 

[Daniel.redskins]

29 minutes ago, Stihl89 said:

I just don’t see anything that says he’s going to be a top 10 QB. He’s looking more and more like Derrick Carr tier with every game. At best. The amount of sacks is just going to always hold him back. It’s just who he is. 
 

You can’t sign him to a large contract. It’s going to hamstring you so much. 

Howell is top 10 in passing yards and TDs in his first season.  So I'm confused?