The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[illone]

I just learned that HBO filmed "Hard Knocks In-Season" with the Colts last year.

 

If you haven't seen it yet, it's worth a watch because you can see for yourself how overblown the Wentz narrative really is.

 

He should have never been traded from the Colts. 

 

I now consider Washington very fortunate to benefit from a horrible decision by another team.  

 

That final game of the year that really started the Irsay narrative, the Colts entire secondary was banged up.  Yes, Carson could have played better but so could have his oline, receivers, and everyone else on offense.  Include the Dline in that too.  I won't blame the secondary because they were not in the game.

 

To blame that collapse on Carson Wentz is laughable.  

 

[TheShredder]

6 hours ago, illone said:

He should have never been traded from the Colts. 

 

I now consider Washington very fortunate to benefit from a horrible decision by another team.

Well, he clearly was not consistently making good reads. His decision making was too slow and didn't show any willingness to settle for a checkdown. Those go hand in hand and result in taking unnecessary sacks and contributed to bad turnovers. He got into these bad habits in 2020 when the Eagles were talent depleted and Wentz lost his decisiveness, then the dysfunctional PHI coaching fiasco was full monty. Well documented here: Why Carson Wentz fell apart

As far as considering WSH very fortunate, that's still probably true. Of course it remains to be seen and it is a calculated risk by them. Evidenced by them not restructuring his contract.

Wentz clearly has to get better. I see lots of evidence that he's acknowledged that, taking humble steps towards that, and working hard to take advantage of the talent around him. I'd expect him to be much better than 2021, though the clock is ticking starting week 1.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

More violins for Ryan.  lol, and i am one of the few people here who apparently actually think highly of Ryan, still its way too much

 

 

After moving on from Carson Wentz without an immediate replacement to be their QB1, the Colts were able to trade for veteran Matt Ryan.

It seems as if Colts owner Jim Irsay couldn’t be happier with his new quarterback.

 

 

“Oh man, I tell you it’s been great,” Irsay said at the league’s spring meeting on Tuesday, via D. Orlando Ledbetter of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. “It’s been really exciting having him in and his leadership.”

Irsay added that Ryan has been like a coach on the field for the club. And Indianapolis isn’t anticipating that he’ll be retiring anytime soon.

“It’s awesome. We’re really excited about Matt and we feel he just turned 37,” Irsay said. “He’s excited about playing and excited about finishing his legacy over the next three, four, or five years or whatever it is.

“I know with the same ideas that we have, with a world championship. It’s been great having him.”

[kingdaddy]

5 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Well, he clearly was not consistently making good reads. His decision making was too slow and didn't show any willingness to settle for a checkdown. Those go hand in hand and result in taking unnecessary sacks and contributed to bad turnovers. He got into these bad habits in 2020 when the Eagles were talent depleted and Wentz lost his decisiveness, then the dysfunctional PHI coaching fiasco was full monty. Well documented here: Why Carson Wentz fell apart

As far as considering WSH very fortunate, that's still probably true. Of course it remains to be seen and it is a calculated risk by them. Evidenced by them not restructuring his contract.

Wentz clearly has to get better. I see lots of evidence that he's acknowledged that, taking humble steps towards that, and working hard to take advantage of the talent around him. I'd expect him to be much better than 2021, though the clock is ticking starting week 1.

 

well said.

[Llevron]

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

More violins for Ryan.  lol, and i am one of the few people here who apparently actually think highly of Ryan, still its way too much

 

Way too much. I'm rooting against the Colts this much almost as much as the Vikes. 

 

Yes, the petty flows through me. 

 

All that said, I cant tell if its my bias or if the Colts are making this very obvious that they reeeeeeally want everyone to believe the 1 and only problem was Carson Wentz. Which makes me feel like it really wasn't. And I am super biased. Its my defining character trait as a fan. 

[Koolblue13]

32 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

More violins for Ryan.  lol, and i am one of the few people here who apparently actually think highly of Ryan, still its way too much

 

 

After moving on from Carson Wentz without an immediate replacement to be their QB1, the Colts were able to trade for veteran Matt Ryan.

It seems as if Colts owner Jim Irsay couldn’t be happier with his new quarterback.

 

 

“Oh man, I tell you it’s been great,” Irsay said at the league’s spring meeting on Tuesday, via D. Orlando Ledbetter of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. “It’s been really exciting having him in and his leadership.”

Irsay added that Ryan has been like a coach on the field for the club. And Indianapolis isn’t anticipating that he’ll be retiring anytime soon.

“It’s awesome. We’re really excited about Matt and we feel he just turned 37,” Irsay said. “He’s excited about playing and excited about finishing his legacy over the next three, four, or five years or whatever it is.

“I know with the same ideas that we have, with a world championship. It’s been great having him.”

Irsay should be an expect QB fluffer, since he gets to do it every year.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I've never had anything against Matt Ryan.  I wouldn't have been surprised if he ended up here and wouldn't have loved or hated it.

 

But all the gushing and fluff pieces dedicated to him with the Colts has me rooting hard against any type of success for him/them.  I hope my gut is right in that he's going to be on the downside physically and that he will continue to trend down from here.  That's exactly what an owner like Irsay and ultimately at this point, a GM like Ballard deserves.  I'm surprised Ballard hasn't separated his shoulder yet from patting himself on the back.  They deserve to pay the price for the lack of class in handling Wentz, pre and post trade as well as making Matt Ryan out to be Tom Brady in his prime to replace him.

[Carsonfanforlife]

14 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I guess this is what set up that session with Carson.  Warner breaking Wentz down

 

 

The problem with these types of break downs are that the guy doing the break down hasn't been in that specific locker room or coached by that specific staff on that specific play. He has no idea what the read progression is on any of those plays. You can guess by what you've been taught or how you would think it should be but it's really just an educated guess. It's easy to find faults when you watch film and see open guys not getting the ball but you really need to know what the progression is supposed to be before you can say definitively whether it was a miss read or bad decision.

[goskins10]

8 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Well, he clearly was not consistently making good reads. His decision making was too slow and didn't show any willingness to settle for a checkdown. Those go hand in hand and result in taking unnecessary sacks and contributed to bad turnovers. He got into these bad habits in 2020 when the Eagles were talent depleted and Wentz lost his decisiveness, then the dysfunctional PHI coaching fiasco was full monty. Well documented here: Why Carson Wentz fell apart

As far as considering WSH very fortunate, that's still probably true. Of course it remains to be seen and it is a calculated risk by them. Evidenced by them not restructuring his contract.

Wentz clearly has to get better. I see lots of evidence that he's acknowledged that, taking humble steps towards that, and working hard to take advantage of the talent around him. I'd expect him to be much better than 2021, though the clock is ticking starting week 1.

 

 

 

Did you watch all/any of his games? It seems unlikely or you would know your statements are exaggerations and is a great example of the excessive trashing of Carson Wentz. Here is why it's an exaggeration: 

 

Carson had 27 TD and 7 (yes just 7! ints) and 5 fumbles lost - 12 total TOs the entire season! - He was sacked 32 times This is about middle of the pack for starters. Some notables: 

 

Matt Ryan - Who everyone believes in an upgrade - 20 TDS - 12 Ints  4 lost fumbles  sacked 40 times

Derek Carr - 23 - 14 and 38 sacks - 6 lost fumbles

Russell Wilson - 25 - 6 and 33 - Only slightly better comp% - 0 lost Fumbles - impressive

Justin Herbert - 38 - 15 and 31 TDs - 0 lost fumbles - 

Dak Prescott - 37 - 10 and 30 - 6 lost Fumbles

Jimmy G - 20 - 12 and 30 - 3 lost fumbles

 

BTW: HIenke - 20 - 15 and 38 sacks.  2 lost fumbles. 

 

So Carson had by far less TOs and middle of the pack for starters in terms of sacks. His TD to int rate (2.6) is one of the best in the NFL. So the bolded statements are just not true.

 

I have no delusions that Carson is the savior but this trashing him like he played bad football last year is not accurate. He did have a bad 2020 but last year was at least decent. Maybe they didn't like the fit but the incessant trashing his abilities is just over the top. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by goskins10

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

14 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Was watching the first part of the Warner breakdown.  This is probably what Ballard meant about take the layups.  And maybe why Warner had Wentz practice hitting receivers in stride in the flat in that youtube video.

 

As he showed Wentz had a guy wide open in the flat but he waited for a bigger play to evolve and instead took a sack.

 

All QBs have bad plays so no biggie but that play seems to typify the critcisim of him.  I think Ballard has been a douche as for how he's handled Wentz publicly but I don't think he's an idiot so I don't shrug off his criticisms.  But its cool that Wentz is open to working on this.

 

 

 

That's who Wentz is, in 2017 it was MVP production.  But it's a poor strategy if the team lacks talent to actually create big plays.

 

Hopefully our group of route runners can create those opportunities that Wentz prefers.

[88Comrade2000]

Going laugh when Ryan gets injured for the season in Week and Nick Foles does nothing.

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Well, he clearly was not consistently making good reads. His decision making was too slow and didn't show any willingness to settle for a checkdown. Those go hand in hand and result in taking unnecessary sacks and contributed to bad turnovers. He got into these bad habits in 2020 when the Eagles were talent depleted and Wentz lost his decisiveness, then the dysfunctional PHI coaching fiasco was full monty. Well documented here: Why Carson Wentz fell apart

You hit on something really important here.  Confidence is such an important part of the game.  And really, in life.  And it's not just confidence in yourself, but also confidence in your teammates.  

 

The 2020 season was a disaster for Wentz.  I think he got rocked when they drafted Hurts.  (Which the Eagles had every right to do.)  But it was a signal to him that all things were not right in Denmark.

 

Then literally the entire team got hurt. And he started to press, to try and do too much, and put the team on his back.  Quite frankly, if he hadn't done that, they wouldn't have a chance either.  So, I like the fact he tried.

 

But then he kindof got slammed for it, then benched.  And I'm sure THAT shook his confidence, not only in himself, but his situation.

 

And there probably was a "pressing" carryover to last year, where he wanted to show everybody he shouldn't have been benched, he shouldn't have been traded, etc.  So, human nature, he probably pressed a bit.

 

But his surrounding cast last year wasn't great, except for JT.  The problem with that, however, is it takes the ball out of his hands, so he presses even more when he does have the opportunities.

 

One thing I think Ron is REALLY good at is getting players to buy-in, and feel like they have the full support of the team behind them.  Even though it was clear as mud Young was having a tough start to the season, and wasn't doing what he was supposed to, Ron NEVER through him under the bus.  He talked vaguely about immaturity, etc.  Eventually, we all put it together.  But he went out of his way, at least externally, to try and build Young up and not crush him.

 

If there is a coach well suited to helping Wentz regain his confidence, it could be Ron.  And Scott Turner seems like an easy going kindof guy, he might be really helpful also.  

 

 

8 hours ago, TheShredder said:

As far as considering WSH very fortunate, that's still probably true. Of course it remains to be seen and it is a calculated risk by them. Evidenced by them not restructuring his contract.

There's no question it's a calculated risk. 

 

The thing is, he was clearly the best of the options available to them.  Rodgers and Carr stayed put, and whether Wilson wanted to come here or not, the Seahawks were going to trade him to the AFC.  So that was that.  

 

I guess Watson was available, but I don't think Ron or even Dan had any interest in bringing that circus to town, especially seeing what Cleveland had to do to get the circus.  

 

So, they were left with Wentz through a trade, a whole bunch of bad, not ready options in the draft, and Mitch Trubisky, Teddy Bridgewater, Marcus Mariotta, Andy Dalton.  I guess maybe Ryan Fitzpatrick, but he seems to want to just move back to Buffalo and be a cheerleader with his 47 children.  

 

So they got Wentz, and now they can evaluate him.  If it doesn't work out, they are 2 3rd round picks out, but they probably have a pretty high first and second round pick.  

 

8 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Wentz clearly has to get better. I see lots of evidence that he's acknowledged that, taking humble steps towards that, and working hard to take advantage of the talent around him. I'd expect him to be much better than 2021, though the clock is ticking starting week 1.

Yeah, I think he needs to get better.  But I think he might have been better before, and he kindof needs to get back to it.  He also probably is still learning to play a little bit with less physical skills.

 

Here's a Tennis analogy: Rodger Federer dominated men's tennis from 2004-2009.  He literally won everything.  Why?  He could win any way you wanted.  He had the power to blow you off the court, the touch to bamboozle you, the speed to get to anything.  I still say his best tennis has been THE best tennis.  But then he got older.   He lost some of the power, a little of the quickness, and he had a couple of down years (I mean, for him, he dropped from virtually unbeatable to beatable by only 3 other guys, so not THAT far).  

 

He re-invented his game.  Some of the power was gone, but there was more imagination. His serve was better.  He was more aggressive at different points.  He actually adjusted his schedule so he didn't play the full season.  He focused more on what he could do.  He had a second act to his career that even without the first act would put him as one of the top 10 tennis players of all time.  (with the first act, he's no worse than 3rd. )

 

Anyway, enough Tennis which nobody cares about. 

 

Wetnz went to go workout with Kurt Warner, he has acknowledged some of his issues, and is working on it.  That's probably the most encouraging thing of all of this.  

 

So we'll see.  He has some time to really get into the playbook.

 

One important point: I REALLY want to see the offense play meaningful minutes in the preseason.  I want to see Wentz get at least 60 pass attempts over three games.  I don't care so much about running at all in the preseason.  But it's the best time to get chemistry against other teams.  I get that will force the rest of the starting offense out there, and I get that could lead to an injury.  I don't care.  You can't break in a new QB without reps against opposition.  If they're not going to get it through combined practices, they need to get it in preseason.  

 

I thin that's a soapbox I'm going going to be on for a while, so get used to hearing it.  

[FootballZombie]

29 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I REALLY want to see the offense play meaningful minutes in the preseason.  I want to see Wentz get at least 60 pass attempts over three games.  I don't care so much about running at all in the preseason.  But it's the best time to get chemistry against other teams.  I get that will force the rest of the starting offense out there, and I get that could lead to an injury.  I don't care.  You can't break in a new QB without reps against opposition.  If they're not going to get it through combined practices, they need to get it in preseason.  

 

I thin that's a soapbox I'm going going to be on for a while, so get used to hearing it.  

 

All for making the most of preseason but If preseason game 3 goes like last year, we won't be playing our starters. That would give you two games, and the starters probably don't play more than a half of football in each if that. Your not getting much more than 60 plays in that timeframe, let alone passes.

 

Can certainly do more than Fitzy's 21 attempts, but your not likely getting anywhere near 60.

[Skinsinparadise]

Lol

 

[NickyJ]

22 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Lol

 

"Patrick Mahomes really elevated the Chiefs roster to win more games than we expected".

 

'The Chiefs roster that Alex Smith, the QB you've always mocked for being only a game manager who can't carry a team, took to the playoffs three times in a row before he left?'

 

"Yeah, that one."

Edited May 25, 2022 by NickyJ

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

One important point: I REALLY want to see the offense play meaningful minutes in the preseason.  I want to see Wentz get at least 60 pass attempts over three games.   

 

I think you will be disappointed. Those days seem to have gone. The starting O will likely play about 3 quarters total in preseason. 

 

I think I read they plan to have organized scrimmages against another team this year during camp - that is going to be important.

[Skinsinparadise]

37 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

"Patrick Mahomes really elevated the Chiefs roster to win more games than we expected".

 

'The Chiefs roster that Alex Smith, the QB you've always mocked for being only a game manager who can't carry a team, took to the playoffs three times in a row before he left?'

 

"Yeah, that one."

 

mocking Alex you referring to PFF?

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Lol

 

 

Ryan Tannehill being #3 on that list makes it feel a bit dubious.

 

Tannehill had a very good 2019 and 2020 but his play fell off quite a bit this past season and I don't think it's a coincidence that Henry also happened to be out for half of it.

 

He's a good QB but I don't see how you can take his supporting cast (aka Derrick Henry) into account and then give Tannehill as much credit as they did here.

Edited May 25, 2022 by mistertim

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Ryan Tannehill being #3 on that list makes it feel a bit dubious.

 

Tannehill had a very good 2019 and 2020 but his play fell off quite a bit this past season and I don't think it's a coincidence that Henry also happened to be out for half of it.

 

He's a good QB but I don't see how you can take his supporting cast (aka Derrick Henry) into account and then give Tannehill as much credit as they did here.

 

Agree.

 

Wentz being dead last is par for the course for PFF, not that they alone hate him, but they've piled on him pretty hard.   

[NickyJ]

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

mocking Alex you referring to PFF?

Yeah, PFF. Maybe I'm mis-remembering his PFF ratings from those days, but I think they made the "Captain Checkdown" statistic specifically referencing Smith. Which makes it all the more laughable to me that a stacked team led by Smith could make the playoffs repeatedly but still be described as Mahomes carrying the team to more wins than expected.

[FootballZombie]

Grades that try to remove the QB and determine their value are absolutely useless in comparing players against each other.

 

 

QBs are asked to different things, and some QBs by design are not going to be as influential to their team as others.

[Skinsinparadise]

37 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Yeah, PFF. Maybe I'm mis-remembering his PFF ratings from those days, but I think they made the "Captain Checkdown" statistic specifically referencing Smith. Which makes it all the more laughable to me that a stacked team led by Smith could make the playoffs repeatedly but still be described as Mahomes carrying the team to more wins than expected.

 

Yep its not PFF but close.  The "Alex" which Football Outsiders "honored" Alex for because he often led the NFL or was top 3 in throwing passes that were the most yards short of the sticks on third down.    So on their metrics Alex was the king of throwing lets say a 3 yard pass or whatever on 3rd 10.  And conversely they measured aggression off of that same stat.  Rodgers usually rates from what I recall reall high as sort of the anti-Alex as to being aggressive as to throwing to the sticks or above on third down. 

 

I looked up this year's Alex stats.  Wentz actually measures up well.  I guess Darnold won the Alex award to to speak for throwing the most short of the sticks on third down.

 

As for PFF on Alex, I don't recall.  I don't think they hated him, I thim they were just ok on him.  Wentz they clearly just flat out dislike. 

 

• ALEX represents Air Less EXpected on third downs, the average difference between the length of the quarterback's throw and the distance needed for a new set of downs. The number listed here only includes third downs and is not adjusted for passes thrown away or batted down.

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[NewCliche21]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

 

I think you will be disappointed. Those days seem to have gone. The starting O will likely play about 3 quarters total in preseason. 

 

I think I read they plan to have organized scrimmages against another team this year during camp - that is going to be important.

 

I read somewhere today that Rivera indicated that there won't be joint practices. Are you talking more about just driving up the road to Baltimore to scrimmage and that's it, or like the Texans cluster we had with the Texans.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.

 

Wentz being dead last is par for the course for PFF, not that they alone hate him, but they've piled on him pretty hard.   

This guy is the owner and CEO of PFF.

 

If that doesn’t give you pause on everything they do ratings wise, I don’t know what will.

 

[SoCalSkins]

28 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

I read somewhere today that Rivera indicated that there won't be joint practices. Are you talking more about just driving up the road to Baltimore to scrimmage and that's it, or like the Texans cluster we had with the Texans.

Correct there is no joint practice this year. Was supposed to be the Bills then we signed McKissic back and they got their panties in a bunch. 
 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by SoCalSkins