The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[mistertim]

40 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

But the scheme is still going to be the same. 

 

I'm sure the overall ideas of the scheme will be the same as far as route concepts, motion, etc. But I think the point is that we'll get to see what Turner can do when he can fully implement it and isn't limited by a QB who can't move (Smith), a QB who is too lazy to learn the offense (Haskins), or a QB who has major arm talent limitations (Heinicke).

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[HigSkin]

15 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm sure the overall ideas of the scheme will be the same as far as route concepts, motion, etc. But I think the point is that we'll get to see what Turner can do when he can fully implement it and isn't limited by a QB who can't move (Smith), a QB who is too lazy to learn the offense (Haskins), or a QB who has major arm talent limitations (Heinicke).

 

I find it interesting that Turner's contract and Wentz's contract (I know year to year) both expire the same year (2024).  I wonder if Turner was the guy standing on the table for Wentz because EB on The Junkies said his people heard Turner was super pumped to have Wentz coming in here.  That is was going to open up his playbook and allow him to push the ball downfield.

[Est.1974]

13 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

I find it interesting that Turner's contract and Wentz's contract (I know year to year) both expire the same year (2024).  I wonder if Turner was the guy standing on the table for Wentz because EB on The Junkies said his people heard Turner was super pumped to have Wentz coming in here.  That is was going to open up his playbook and allow him to push the ball downfield.

And Rivera’s too ?

[HigSkin]

10 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

And Rivera’s too ?

 

yup, but I heard RR really likes his coordinators to be involved in player selections.

[Darrell Green Fan]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Breer another dude who doesn't like this.  But yeah i do think maybe that's another good sign.  From what I recall all the previous deals at Qb for this team was mostly embraced by both the local and national media.   They were wrong about those.  Maybe they will be wrong again. 

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/03/14/mmqb-russell-wilson-trade-negotiations-tom-brady-unretires

 Did the Commanders give up too much for Wentz? Until I hear the offer another team made Indianapolis for him, yes, I believe they did. I think giving the Colts close to what the Colts gave up for Wentz a year ago (the material difference was a three that can become a two, rather than a two that can become a one) is too much, especially when it means

 

 

 

Since when did a 3rd that MAY convert to a second become nearly the same as a 2nd that DID become a first?  1st round picks are far more valuable than 2nds.  I actually thought the deal itself was fine given their other options.  

[Warhead36]

Well it was Turner who stood on the table for Antonio Gibson as well who's definitely been a great pick up in the 3rd round. He might have a decent eye for talent that he can scheme for.

[skinny21]

18 hours ago, VRIEL1 said:

Maybe it's just me but all year long I saw TH over throwing his receivers all the time. Looking at this video the plays are not even comparable yet I see TH over throwing the receivers. I'll admit we need a better QB I'm just saying IDK that arm strength is an issue. 

I think the arm strength thing is slightly overblown.  Don’t get me wrong, Heinicke has a weak arm in the context of NFL qbs, and it makes a difference.  I remember early on saying he shouldn’t throw comeback routes for example - the ball would hang up there and give the corner time to get back to it (even with McLaurin’s outstanding route running).  I also think that while he has enough of an arm (with follow through) to get the ball deep, the amount of effort he had to put into it affected his accuracy.  Not talking 20 yards, but the 30-40+ type.

I don’t think sailing the ball had much to do with arm strength though.  He just usually took some time to settle down.  I do think there were times he was on time with the ball and threw with anticipation which helped mitigate the arm strength issue.  I think of the 10 yard out routes to Humphries and Milne for example (which is probably more like a 20-25 yard throw depending on where he threw from).  Ditto the (closer to) 20 yard outs when they were on his side of the field.  To the opposite side though… those were high risk.  And even intermediate throws were a tick later than many other qbs could get it there, which gave defenders that extra step or split second to recover.

 

Generally speaking, what I’m getting at is I think low end starter/backup - as the staff supposedly thinks him - is fair for Heinicke.  Those saying he’s not an NFL qb and/or belongs back on his sisters couch are on the extreme side of things (as are those that think Heinicke can win a camp battle with Wentz, or believe Wentz isn’t much of an upgrade).

18 hours ago, Bifflog said:

 

Sailing a ball over the receiver on intermediate throws is not an indicator of adequate armstrength.  Just check out these two plays, in the first, Heinicke leads Terry way out to his left because he can't drive the ball up the hashes.  Terry could have arguably caught this ball, but either way he's tackled at the 10 as a result of having to give up the ground laterally.  Meanwhile, the exact same play Wentz doesn't need to try to lead his receiver away from the defender, he just throws it over top of him because he can.  Credit to Mark Bullock for these, I recommend his blog:

 

 

I think if anyone is looking for a reason to be excited, it's the above.  That's the special sauce, and it can hopefully more than make up for the areas where he's not as good, like passing up easy checkdowns, etc.

I don’t love those plays as example as it looks like a post vs go route.  With that said, Heinicke was pretty darn bad going deep and Wentz is quite proficient at it.  Ironically, the numerous examples of him going deep suggests to me Turner wasn’t necessarily operating with a super limited playbook - the “he could only use half his playbook” comes off as hyperbole to me -  but I do think he catered it to Heinicke.  I think it worked to some extent as TH seemed pretty decent at moving the chains, taking time off the clock and such.  I don’t think it was chicken salad out of chicken **** exactly, but he found a balance that was team oriented - helped the D, helped the ground game and played to Heinicke’s strengths.  If only TH had run a bit more…

 

Getting off topic a bit here (or going further down the rabbit hole anyway), but I had a slight problem with the “DCs figured Heinicke out” at the end of the season.  The idea was play press man, take away the short stuff, crowd the box to stop the run game and make him beat you deep.  Makes sense superficially, but to me, you just call pick/rub plays, double moves and playing man should open up the field for TH to run as receivers carry their defenders down/across the field.  Of course, it helps to have pass catchers that can beat their man.  If Terry is doubled, then other guys should be getting open.  Problem there is McKissick and Thomas are mismatches in man (as is Samuel), but he ended the year without those guys and their replacements weren’t guys that can take advantage.  I think we missed McKissick’s pass pro and versatility too.  Anyway, it’s all a moot point.  I’m turning the page to Wentz and I’m really looking forward to seeing him operate.

17 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Yep, that's the example I had thoughts of when I saw the trade. The other examples are on flat routes.

Wentz needs to be able to play loose, to the point of not feeling the urgency to make each play a winner. Going to need 10,000 reps on 'layups' and tame his instincts to overextend the play.

Some sort of middle ground progress in situational football ala Alex Smith with a stronger arm. Add 25% Alex Smith with his arm and he's Golden.

Yeah, if Wentz can add a bit more of the short game stuff (ie move the chains vs going for the bigger play quite as often), that could be huge for his game.  The jump from %17 to %22 (in using his outlets, if I have that right) last year is promising.  It fits the Air Coryell system better (IMO), it gives our D more time off the field, and it really comes in handy when we’re trying to keep the opposing qb off the field (think our TB game last year).  I’m excited to see the intermediate/deep pass game in action though.  I’m trying to say medium regarding Wentz, but he’s a big upgrade if we can get him comfortable.  I’m hoping we can keep him upright and add to our receiving weapons.

My one real concern with him (and it’s not specific just to him) is learning the playbook/scheme.  I can envision it taking longer for Wentz to flourish.  With that said, reports suggest he’s a hard worker and dedicated to his craft, so my hopes are pretty high there.

 

Edit: not directed at anyone specifically, but there’s this idea that the “hivers” keep bringing up TH and won’t let him go, and that they’ll criticize Wentz for any mistakes next year.  I’ll point out that the ‘other side’ constantly brings TH up with random jabs, and I fully expect the game thread to have frequent sarcastic “yeah, I’m sure Heinicke could have made that play” comments.  It’s two sides to the same coin.

Edited March 14, 2022 by skinny21

[Darth Tater]

41 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Since when did a 3rd that MAY convert to a second become nearly the same as a 2nd that DID become a first?  1st round picks are far more valuable than 2nds.  I actually thought the deal itself was fine given their other options.  

What is funny is that if the 3 converts to a two, it likely means that the 2 is on the back-end and that the trade was good for us. Yes, the FO may not have covered the downside risk as much as most would like but we've eliminated almost all the upside risk. If he is a fail, the worse we gave a couple of 3s and some sugar (swapping 2s), got a big cap hit in the current year (though, we could lower that by increasing the backside costs) and will be in the market again (but no matter who the team got, that would be true). If he succeeds, at a MINIMUM we have our best QB since Kirk (but with a defense and a run game this time) who is in our control and cheap.

[Bifflog]

13 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I don’t love those plays as example as it looks like a post vs go route.

 

He starts at the numbers and catches the ball about a yard or two from the hashes.  Maybe it's a skinny :).

 

Same article had a couple of go routes for comparison:

 

 

Looks like McClaurin beats his man more severely than the Colt's WR but it hosed up by the underthrow.  Press coverage vs. off coverage also, but feels like Wentz throws a TD in that spot.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Bifflog

[KDawg]

Over throwing a receiver does not = arm strength. It can often mean that the player is putting in a ton of effort in making that throw and it has an affect on accuracy.

 

One of the reasons you hear coaches/scouts say, "Man, he throws that effortlessly" or "the ball shoots out of his hand" is because those QBs are able to throw using their typical throwing motion and do it under control and accurately. 

 

Let's not try to reinvent the wheel or over analyze. Heinicke did some things that helped us a bit, but one of them wasn't and won't be arm strength. 

[TheShredder]

6 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Yeah, if Wentz can add a bit more of the short game stuff (ie move the chains vs going for the bigger play quite as often), that could be huge for his game.  The jump from %17 to %22 (in using his outlets, if I have that right) last year is promising.  It fits the Air Coryell system better (IMO), it gives our D more time off the field, and it really comes in handy when we’re trying to keep the opposing qb off the field (think our TB game last year).  I’m excited to see the intermediate/deep pass game in action though.  I’m trying to say medium regarding Wentz, but he’s a big upgrade if we can get him comfortable.  I’m hoping we can keep him upright and add to our receiving weapons.

My one real concern with him (and it’s not specific just to him) is learning the playbook/scheme.  I can envision it taking longer for Wentz to flourish.  With that said, reports suggest he’s a hard worker and dedicated to his craft, so my hopes are pretty high there.

 

Edit: not directed at anyone specifically, but there’s this idea that the “hivers” keep bringing up TH and won’t let him go, and that they’ll criticize Wentz for any mistakes next year.  I’ll point out that the ‘other side’ constantly brings TH up with random jabs, and I fully expect the game thread to have frequent sarcastic “yeah, I’m sure Heinicke could have made that play” comments.  It’s two sides to the same coin.

He will give 110%, just like he did last year. He tried to go back on the field with 2 ankle sprains! Dude's motivated, no question. His problems stem from NOT ever giving up, where situational football says it's better to eat the play. Little work to be done there because when the bullets start flying he'll resort to instinct.

TH just doesn't have the arm strength so, I'll take double the INTs for 10+ more TDs and scoring +30 pts a game.

They just need pass protection and that offense is going to score.

[NoCalMike]

7 hours ago, KDawg said:

Over throwing a receiver does not = arm strength. It can often mean that the player is putting in a ton of effort in making that throw and it has an affect on accuracy.

 

 

 

I get that, but there is also such thing as throwing your WR open because you have confidence in their ability to adjust & track the ball. Wentz's throw wasn't really an overthrow so much as placing the ball where the WR was running to because the WR wasn't wide open like McLaurin was in the that clip.  The McLaurin clip should be a TD or at least the WR running down the sideline with the ball with a throw from a starting NFL QB.  Contrast that with the Wentz throw and it is more of an anticipation throw where the WR is going to be tackled after the catch. 

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

I get that, but there is also such thing as throwing your WR open because you have confidence in their ability to adjust & track the ball. Wentz's throw wasn't really an overthrow so much as placing the ball where the WR was running to because the WR wasn't wide open like McLaurin was in the that clip.  The McLaurin clip should be a TD or at least the WR running down the sideline with the ball with a throw from a starting NFL QB.  Contrast that with the Wentz throw and it is more of an anticipation throw where the WR is going to be tackled after the catch. 

I’m not sure what you’re talking about. I was talking about Heinicke.

[NoCalMike]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I’m not sure what you’re talking about. I was talking about Heinicke.

 

Whoops!

[Darrell Green Fan]

17 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

What is funny is that if the 3 converts to a two, it likely means that the 2 is on the back-end and that the trade was good for us. Yes, the FO may not have covered the downside risk as much as most would like but we've eliminated almost all the upside risk. If he is a fail, the worse we gave a couple of 3s and some sugar (swapping 2s), got a big cap hit in the current year (though, we could lower that by increasing the backside costs) and will be in the market again (but no matter who the team got, that would be true). If he succeeds, at a MINIMUM we have our best QB since Kirk (but with a defense and a run game this time) who is in our control and cheap.

 

Not so sure about that. The trigger is playing 70% of the snaps, it's not based on performance.  He reached the trigger in Indy too and they shipped him out of town.  

[SpacePenguin]

6 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Not so sure about that. The trigger is playing 70% of the snaps, it's not based on performance.  He reached the trigger in Indy too and they shipped him out of town.  

 

Yeah, not sure why everyone says its 2 3rds. It's gonna be a 2 and a 3 (and a swap of 2s this year) barring an injury to Wentz.

[redskinss]

18 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

1st round picks are far more valuable than 2nds.

That depends I guess. 

Detroit got a first round pick from the rams for stafford that ain't a whole better than Jacksonville's second rounder.

[Skinsinparadise]

Sheehan I see is determined to make this off seaon miserable by continually trashing Wentz. 

 

I've heard him multiple times trash Trubisky.  But since he thinks both QBs suck (he said it a little nicer than that), he's leading the witnesses as in his callers more or less to state why a Trubisky get who stinks who could be had cheap is a better move than Wentz who stinks but was expensive. 

 

And goes Trubisky is good guy and implies Wentz isn't.  Will see.  But I think the Wentz is a bad guy narrative will be found to be false.

 

Personally, I won't die on the hill for Wentz but I think the risk was well worth it.  He's a high upside QB.  If they are wrong about this then swing again.  

Edited March 15, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Riggo#44]

This idea that Trubisky is any kind of a solution because he's cheap and suffered under Matt Nagy is the same line of thought that ended up with Sam Darnold starting for the Carolina Panthers.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

This idea that Trubisky is any kind of a solution because he's cheap and suffered under Matt Nagy is the same line of thought that ended up with Sam Darnold starting for the Carolina Panthers.

 

 

 

[mhd24]

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Sheehan I see is determined to make this off seaon miserable by continually trashing Wentz. 

 

I've heard him multiple times trash Trubisky.  But since he thinks both QBs suck (he said it a little nicer than that), he's leading the witnesses as in his callers more or less to state why a Trubisky get who stinks who could be had cheap is a better move than Wentz who stinks but was expensive. 

 

And goes Trubisky is good guy and implies Wentz isn't.  Will see.  But I think the Wentz is a bad guy narrative will be found to be false.

 

Personally, I won't die on the hill for Wentz but I think the risk was well worth it.  He's a high upside QB.  If they are wrong about this then swing again.  

 

 

Has he ever fessed up and admitting he was dead wrong about Darnold?

[Skinsinparadise]

Also by multiple accounts (ESPN and NY Post) the Giants weren't in the lead for Trubisky as some of the locals strangely contended.  Also multiple reports that Trubisky indeed was cool with coming here.  Some locals contended otherwise but they admit its pure speculation on their end.  I don't mind the speculation but there are some reports that suggest the opposite.  But I'll let it go since I am glad Trubisky isn't coming here. 😀

 

https://nypost.com/2022/03/14/evan-engram-to-get-fresh-start-after-signing-with-jaguars/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=twitter_app

The Giants did not have the money or the opportunity Trubisky wanted. If he signed with the Giants he would have been in a competition with Daniel Jones for the starting job. The Giants will look elsewhere for an upgrade. Colt McCoy re-signed with the Cardinals and even his modest two-year, $7.5 million deal might be too pricey for the Giants. Marcus Mariota and Tyrod Taylor are options. 

4 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

Has he ever fessed up and admitting he was dead wrong about Darnold?

 

If he did, i missed that show

 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[mhd24]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Also by multiple accounts (ESPN and NY Post) the Giants weren't in the lead for Trubisky as some of the locals strangely contended.  Also multiple reports that Trubisky indeed was cool with coming here.  Some locals contended otherwise but they admit its pure speculation on their end.  I don't mind the speculation but there are some reports that suggest the opposite.  But I'll let it go since I am glad Trubisky isn't coming here. 😀

 

https://nypost.com/2022/03/14/evan-engram-to-get-fresh-start-after-signing-with-jaguars/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=twitter_app

The Giants did not have the money or the opportunity Trubisky wanted. If he signed with the Giants he would have been in a competition with Daniel Jones for the starting job. The Giants will look elsewhere for an upgrade. Colt McCoy re-signed with the Cardinals and even his modest two-year, $7.5 million deal might be too pricey for the Giants. Marcus Mariota and Tyrod Taylor are options. 

 

If he did, i missed that show

 

 

 

Yeah, I like his show, but he rarely admits he's ever wrong.  Like, he hated the Haskins pick, then warmed up to him and thought he was a "gamer" at the end of the rookie year.  After Ron benched him, he was apoplectic and said they should have used to the whole year to evaluate him.  Heck, he's probably never admitted that he was wrong about Barkley as well.

[HigSkin]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Also by multiple accounts (ESPN and NY Post) the Giants weren't in the lead for Trubisky as some of the locals strangely contended.  Also multiple reports that Trubisky indeed was cool with coming here.  Some locals contended otherwise but they admit its pure speculation on their end.  I don't mind the speculation but there are some reports that suggest the opposite.  But I'll let it go since I am glad Trubisky isn't coming here. 😀

 

https://nypost.com/2022/03/14/evan-engram-to-get-fresh-start-after-signing-with-jaguars/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=twitter_app

The Giants did not have the money or the opportunity Trubisky wanted. If he signed with the Giants he would have been in a competition with Daniel Jones for the starting job. The Giants will look elsewhere for an upgrade. Colt McCoy re-signed with the Cardinals and even his modest two-year, $7.5 million deal might be too pricey for the Giants. Marcus Mariota and Tyrod Taylor are options. 

 

If he did, i missed that show

 

 

 

Adam Schefter on Get Up this morning said Trubisky thought he was going to be a serious option for Washington and there was interest but when we signed Wentz, had to go down his options.  Sounded to me like what we always suspected, he was part of a plan C.

 

Meanwhile, the guys on Get Up are killing Wentz stacked against the other NFCE QB's and ranking him down in the Daniel Jones range or just above.  I totally disagree.  I really hope Wentz lights it up to shut the naysayers up.  LOL