The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Chump Bailey]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

worried about Kyle how?  Forrest was picked after Kyle was gone.   Tim Gribble was the college director then and the year prior under Kyle so influential on the draft and he's still from what I gather overseeing that now.

 

He was? Okay. I thought Smith did a good job draft wise for us though overall and I really liked the Falcons draft this year.

[Chris 44]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Standig

 

 

In reference to Wentz we are in a weird spot. Im thinking that the upcoming three weeks, at Houston, first Giants game, leading into the bye will determine a lot how we move forward with him this year. Several things to consider.

1. Two games leading into the bye to see if Heinike can continue to QB this team to wins

2. It allows Wentz to get back into practicing and shake off the rust.

3. Sitting him gets us closer to the 70% 

4. In 3 weeks we should have a good idea if a wildcard is a possibility and who starts going forward.

 

Having said all that, either way we may not learn a lot about Wentz that we dont already know. Benching TH if he loses the next 2 basically puts us out of the hunt and I would rather see Howell at that point. Losing at Houston and TH plays bad enough that Wentz starts against the Giants might change things if Wentz plays well, probably still have a realistic chance for a wildcard run and it will be worth to continue on with Wentz.

More than anything I would love to have a definitive path to a QB going into the off season. Love to make the playoffs but I think QB will not allow us to progress much further and will still have no idea what we have in Howell going into next year.

 

Just some rambling thoughts.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

11 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Dude just got divorced and lost hundreds of millions of dollars in FTX. If we pay him, he'll play. Lol

 

Dude also has a 10 year, $375 million dollar deal with Fox to call games when he retires from football.  Not to mention there is a salary cap and I don't want another player coming here to take a pay day and be out after one year.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Less Carson Wentz and more this thread lol...

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[redskinss]

And the debate rages on.

There are any of a dozen things that could have happened in that game to make it a loss but they didn't.

This season is playing out eerily similar to last season.

Starter gets hurt, heinicke comes in, team starts terrible and goes on a nice run to pull to .500, that's where we are now.

 

We are right here 

 

If at this point Fitzpatrick was healthy everybody would have said, "are you crazy" we can't pull heinicke he has moxie, he just finds ways to win games, he beat Tom Brady in a huge upset.

 

Any of this sound familiar?

 

Well it feels like Deja vu to me and despite the fact that we have had a nice streak and I'm  very reluctant to mess with that momentum and I'm also on board with everybody that thinks wentz could actually be worse I still don't think it's crazy to weigh all options very carefully. 

Wentz had a pretty damn rough start last year then a great streak where he was one of the best QBs in the game and then the collapse that was a team collapse and certainly not all his fault.

 

If this team comes apart at the seams it's not gonna matter if it's heinicke or wentz they're both going to suck something awful but if we keep running the ball very effectively, keep going 4 for 4 on field goals with multiple kicks well over 50 yards and keep playing good to great defense while creating turnovers then it's a tough call for me to keep playing a guy who had no touchdowns, 2 turnovers and 200 yards passing just because he has moxie.

 

I think we probably should stick with heinicke but on a very short leash.

Any more toss up picks that result in losses and i say give wentz another shot before the season goes completely to ****  because moxie only gets you so far as we discovered last year.

Edited November 16, 2022 by redskinss

[zCommander]

7 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Less Carson Wentz and more this thread lol...

 

 

 

The full video 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

[FootballZombie]

12 minutes ago, redskinss said:

And the debate rages on.

 

Personally, after this game, I have downgraded TH from game manager status. Its not fair to call him that when the team works around him to such a degree.

 

Dude is in the Tim Tebow role now. Basically only pass when you are forced to and do everything in your power to prevent that from happening.

 

Scott Turner works hard to mitigate his impact on the game and it is 100% the right move given what he has to work with.

Given its a shorter window but we are taking the reigns away from TH even harder than we were last season.

[DJHJR86]

Goff's stats from 2016 to present:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GoffJa00.htm#2016-2022-sum:passing

 

Carr's stats from 2016 to present:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CarrDe02.htm#2016-2022-sum:passing

 

IMO both Goff and Carr would be an upgrade to what we have now, but you aren't winning a Super Bowl with either of them, so what's the point?

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, redskinss said:

And the debate rages on.

There are any of a dozen things that could have happened in that game to make it a loss but they didn't.

This season is playing out eerily similar to last season.

Starter gets hurt, heinicke comes in, team starts terrible and goes on a nice run to pull to .500, that's where we are now.

 

We are right here 

 

If at this point Fitzpatrick was healthy everybody would have said, "are you crazy" we can't pull heinicke he has moxie, he just finds ways to win games, he beat Tom Brady in a huge upset.

 

Any of this sound familiar?

 

Well it feels like Deja vu to me and despite the fact that we have had a nice streak and I'm  very reluctant to mess with that momentum and I'm also on board with everybody that thinks wentz could actually be worse I still don't think it's crazy to weigh all options very carefully. 

Wentz had a pretty damn rough start last year then a great streak where he was one of the best QBs in the game and then the collapse that was a team collapse and certainly not all his fault.

 

If this team comes apart at the seams it's not gonna matter if it's heinicke or wentz they're both going to suck something awful but if we keep running the ball very effectively, keep going 4 for 4 on field goals with multiple kicks well over 50 yards and keep playing good to great defense while creating turnovers then it's a tough call for me to keep playing a guy who had no touchdowns, 2 turnovers and 200 yards passing just because he has moxie.

 

I think we probably should stick with heinicke but on a very short leash.

Any more toss up picks that result in losses and i say give wentz another shot before the season goes completely to ****  because moxie only gets you so far as we discovered last year.

 

 

Could it fall apart?  Yes.  Two things though I think different from then and now"

 

A.  The defense started playing better during that period but overall wasn't having a good season.  This defense IMO is better and legit.

 

B.  The team got ravaged by COVID during most of that span and played teams who had no where near the same problems with losses becasue of COVID.

 

C. Losing Collins who was key at the Bufflao nickel spot was big 

 

D.  They lost Chase.  And didn't have Sweat either for most fo that period.  This time its the opposite (knock on wood) Chase is coming back

[HigSkin]

As Ron said in the presser, sticking with game to game montra.  IMO, TH does better with coming off the bench in the underdog roll and people doubting him then he does being named the starter the rest of the season.

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Could it fall apart?  Yes.  Two things though I think different from then and now"

 

A.  The defense started playing better during that period but overall wasn't having a good season.  This defense IMO is better and legit.

 

B.  The team got ravaged by COVID during most of that span and played teams who had no where near the same problems with losses becasue of COVID.

 

C. Losing Collins who was key at the Bufflao nickel spot was big 

 

D.  They lost Chase.  And didn't have Sweat either for most fo that period.  This time its the opposite (knock on wood) Chase is coming back

 

One more to add, murderers row of really good QB's and quality teams (SOS).

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by HigSkin

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Could it fall apart?  Yes.  Two things though I think different from then and now"

 

A.  The defense started playing better during that period but overall wasn't having a good season.  This defense IMO is better and legit.

 

B.  The team got ravaged by COVID during most of that span and played teams who had no where near the same problems with losses becasue of COVID.

 

C. Losing Collins who was key at the Bufflao nickel spot was big 

 

D.  They lost Chase.  And didn't have Sweat either for most fo that period.  This time its the opposite (knock on wood) Chase is coming back

 

[Renegade7]

4 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

As Ron said in the presser, sticking with game to game montra.  IMO, TH does better with coming off the bench in the underdog roll and people doubting him then he does being named the starter the rest of the season.

 

Straight facts.

 

Taylor even talked about this last year how the pressure of jus doing his job as a backup was very different then trying to keep his job as a starter, let alone prove he could finally be one.

 

It directly impacted his play, it was very noticeable at times, and coaching staff needs to be careful with asking to do too much in context that this is a contract year for him.

 

And front office has to keep their lips shut about any plans for QB position this offseason, it will only make it harder if we get linked to rumors of trading for Carr for example, no matter who we choose to run with remainder of the season.

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

IMO both Goff and Carr would be an upgrade to what we have now, but you aren't winning a Super Bowl with either of them, so what's the point?

 

The point is not everyone agrees with your premise.  Some do, some don't.  If I did agree with your premise albiet I don't, I'd be with you.

 

I am not a Goff guy but I don't think it helps your point that he actually made the SB but lost to Brady, that's pretty darn close to winning it all.  It's like a dude who can barely get water to drink and is now offered a vintage wine for a change but goes yuck where's the champagne?

 

I recall all the arguments against Stafford two years ago -- centered on mostly the dude just doesn't win.   I among others argued he's not an elite QB, not a carry a team on his back type of Qb but he's a good QB and if you put him on a really good team, he can win it all.  And he did.

 

Carr to me is the closest analogy of a QB I can think of to Stafford.  Some differences.  But IMO plenty of similarties which I talked about before.  I could end up wrong about Carr.  But I watched Carr enough including in person to be confident enough in my opinion that I am not easily talked out of it.

 

I am far from married to Carr.  And I don't love Carr's play but like it.  But its a hard like.  He's definitely on the table for me.  And judging by what Keim said last year, he'd likely be on the table for this FO.   Will see.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

27 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

Any of this sound familiar?

For sure.

 

I think the primary difference though is this defense is legit.  Their stops prevent the score from getting out of hand, which plays directly into Turner’s new philosophy of doing everything in his power to prevent Taylor from having to throw.

 

The fact of the matter is Heinicke’s stat lines are your prototypical losing QB stat lines.  @FootballZombie has mentioned Tebow a few times which is looking more and more like a valid comparison to what we’re doing right now.

 

Another variable working in this teams favor is not often during this streak has the offense been behind the chains, via offensive penalties.  The last thing this group can afford with Taylor at QB is to be put in 1st and 15’s and the like.  3 yard runs and checkdowns don’t cut it in those situations.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

18 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

IMO both Goff and Carr would be an upgrade to what we have now, but you aren't winning a Super Bowl with either of them, so what's the point?

 

I'm no longer saying this about any QB we may bring in lol...we said this exact same thing about both Fitzpatrick and Wentz. I think if we say it a third time Beetlejuice shows up on the sidelines...

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[HigSkin]

If anybody is interested Kurt Warner is coming on NFLN at 1pm segment to discuss who should be the starting QB in Washington.

[NoCalMike]

I have to believe that if Wentz (fully healthy) is benched for Heinicke, he is done in DC period.  Not sure how you say Heinicke is the better option for a run at a wild card spot, but hey Carson, we will see you back here in 2023.   You either think Wentz is the guy to get the job done or not, and if not, then the search goes on for a starting QB in the offseason.

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

I'm no longer saying this about any QB we may bring in lol...we said this exact same thing about both Fitzpatrick and Wentz. I think if we say it a third time Beetlejuice shows up on the sidelines..

I salute your Beetlejuice reference.  

 

[redskinss]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Could it fall apart?  Yes.  Two things though I think different from then and now"

 

A.  The defense started playing better during that period but overall wasn't having a good season.  This defense IMO is better and legit.

 

B.  The team got ravaged by COVID during most of that span and played teams who had no where near the same problems with losses becasue of COVID.

 

C. Losing Collins who was key at the Bufflao nickel spot was big 

 

D.  They lost Chase.  And didn't have Sweat either for most fo that period.  This time its the opposite (knock on wood) Chase is coming back

I agree, my point was that heinicke and his moxie didn't save us.

Anybody who has watched sports or more so played sports has seen where adrenaline and unbridled effort can win you a big game or even a decent streak but in the end talent is the most important thing and lack of it will always catch up to you.

Until we have a quarterback that can somewhat consistently get the ball downfield into our receivers hands in stride for walk in touchdowns or yards after the catch we'll never be able to consistently beat good teams.

Is wentz that guy?

So far it certainly looks like the answer is no but he has the physical tools to do it and it's a tough call when you're not really winning games because of your quarterback. 

If our starter was joe burrow or Justin Herbert we wouldn't be having a discussion about staying with the hot hand, unfortunately they're not, so this is more about not having better options than it is about heinicke and his winning ways.

[skinny21]

27 minutes ago, redskinss said:

And the debate rages on.

There are any of a dozen things that could have happened in that game to make it a loss but they didn't.

This season is playing out eerily similar to last season.

Starter gets hurt, heinicke comes in, team starts terrible and goes on a nice run to pull to .500, that's where we are now.

 

We are right here 

 

If at this point Fitzpatrick was healthy everybody would have said, "are you crazy" we can't pull heinicke he has moxie, he just finds ways to win games, he beat Tom Brady in a huge upset.

 

Any of this sound familiar?

 

Well it feels like Deja vu to me and despite the fact that we have had a nice streak and I'm  very reluctant to mess with that momentum and I'm also on board with everybody that thinks wentz could actually be worse I still don't think it's crazy to weigh all options very carefully. 

Wentz had a pretty damn rough start last year then a great streak where he was one of the best QBs in the game and then the collapse that was a team collapse and certainly not all his fault.

 

If this team comes apart at the seams it's not gonna matter if it's heinicke or wentz they're both going to suck something awful but if we keep running the ball very effectively, keep going 4 for 4 on field goals with multiple kicks well over 50 yards and keep playing good to great defense while creating turnovers then it's a tough call for me to keep playing a guy who had no touchdowns, 2 turnovers and 200 yards passing just because he has moxie.

 

I think we probably should stick with heinicke but on a very short leash.

Any more toss up picks that result in losses and i say give wentz another shot before the season goes completely to **** like last year because moxie only gets you so far as we discovered last year.

Typed this out before seeing SIP’s post, so lots of overlap.

 

I agree with some of your points, but… the Texans are not the Cowboys, our D isn’t decimated from injuries/Covid (and playing better than last year), and we have almost all of our weapons healthy.  I might even argue that this “statement win” against the Eagles, and the slate of upcoming opponents, is more similar to our situation post the Bucs game.  Obviously TH (and/or the team - via injury) could still fall apart in a similar manner, and I do expect a qb change in the near future.  

 

My guess is that the offense stalls out in one of the next 3 games (vs the Giants is probably the obvious bet) and we turn to Wentz.  If Wentz (and the team as this O and D are relying on each other pretty heavily I believe) play poorly - and it’s probably tough going against the Giants and then 49ers (particularly behind this oline) - we might then turn to Howell to end the season.  Howell, in that scenario, gets Cleveland (possible he comes in sooner), but then has to face Dallas.  

 

If Heinicke plays well enough to win these next 3 games (and we do in fact win 1 or more), I think it’s probably his job the rest of the way, though I really hope they’d turn to Howell if we’re out of the hunt, regardless of how our starter is playing.  Might caveat that to say - unless Wentz is in and is playing excellent ball… then I think they plan on him returning next year and give him as many reps as they can (rightly or wrongly), even if they’re knocked out of contention.

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, redskinss said:

I agree, my point was that heinicke and his moxie didn't save us.

Anybody who has watched sports or more so played sports has seen where adrenaline and unbridled effort can win you a big game or even a decent streak but in the end talent is the most important thing and lack of it will always catch up to you.

Until we have a quarterback that can somewhat consistently get the ball downfield into our receivers hands in stride for walk in touchdowns or yards after the catch we'll never be able to consistently beat good teams.

Is wentz that guy?

So far it certainly looks like the answer is no but he has the physical tools to do it and it's a tough call when you're not really winning games because of your quarterback. 

If our starter was joe burrow or Justin Herbert we wouldn't be having a discussion about staying with the hot hand, unfortunately they're not, so this is more about not having better options than it is about heinicke and his winning ways.

 

I am pushing the idea of Carr as an option, QBs in this draft, etc -- because I got no doubt Taylor isn't the answer.  He doesn't have the vision because of his height, arm strength or accuracy or decision making to be a top half of the league QB IMO.  So no argument from me as to Heinicke is limited and isn't the answer and it could blow up this season.

 

Taylor though I think isn't a bad driver of this engine if they play to the model of ball.  They seem to play with more energy with Taylor and if Taylor can reign in his mistakes, I think we end up OK.   While i think the Tebow examples used here is a bit extreme -- i do get the point which is don't have shoot outs where Taylor has to go tit for tat with the opposing QB.    But yeah I gather teams will crowd the box to an extreme like Dallas did to us last year and just dare Taylor to throw. I do think though if this defense keeps playing the way they are -- including creating turnovers which is something they struggled with early but are coming on of late -- they won't fall apart the way they did last season.  But will see.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

I said this in the gameday thread after the game, and after having some time to ruminate on it, and consider if it was just post-win excitement, I have decided my opinion is not going to change:

 

It would be madness to pull TH from the starting lineup and insert Wentz at this point.  

 

A few reasons:

1. Don't mess with success.

2. TH might just be the luckiest man alive who has been touched by the Football God's for reasons which I have no idea.  But if he's going to have Devine intervention like Tebow did during his magical run the year before the Broncos dumped him for Peyton Manning, then don't question it, just take it.

3. If the game plan is going to be to run the ball 40+ times a game, it really doesn't matter THAT much who the QB is.  And maybe TH's ability to check into and out of plays (though I question whether he is even allowed to dot hat in the Tuner based offense) might be helpful.

4. He does have more mobility, and that is helpful.

 

I will also say I think Wentz has gotten an absolutely raw deal.  There were times when he didn't play well on his own accord, but at the same time, the OL he played with was just plain awful, and it was different than the one TH is playing with now.  ** The current line is in no way shape or form the Hogs.  But they are better.

 

In 3 of the first 5 games he played, he played pretty well in 3 of them: Jax, Detroit, Tenn.  Not perfect, but pretty good.  Behind a sieve of an OL.  

 

A few reminders:  

- Schweitzer started the season not playing.  So there was no backup center.  (Which is criminal negligence by Ron and the FO).  

- Norwell and Turner started the season at guard almost because they had to.  There was nobody else.  Turner was still hurt and didn't play well, and Norwell didn't play well either.

- Then Rouiller got hurt in the Detroit game, and the offense ground to a complete stop because all 3 of the interior OL were on ice-skates.

- Martin made several starts at Center, where he dribbled the ball back to Wentz and also just got routinely beat like a drum until Larsen came back. He was the worst player on the field in every snap he played. 

- Charles was inserted for Turner, who was benched because he was sucking.  

- Cosmi went out with a broken hand, and Lucas filled in.  This actually wasn't a big loss.

 

In contract to now, where Larsen has stabilized the center position, Norwell has started to play better, and Turner seems to be playing ok and is back to being healthy.  

 

Did Wentz hold the ball at times a beat or two too long?  Yes.  

 

That said, the OL was a complete train wreck from the Detroit through Titans game.  Larsen returning helped, but Tuner/Charles on the right side were still a problem.  

 

So, I do feel bad for Wentz.  I would like to have seen him get the opportunity behind the current OL just to see if he is any good.  I still thin he is. 

 

But again, in no way do you pull TH at this point. You let him ride it out until either they make the playoffs or are eliminated, and then you go to Howell.

[skinny21]

6 minutes ago, redskinss said:

I agree, my point was that heinicke and his moxie didn't save us.

Anybody who has watched sports or more so played sports has seen where adrenaline and unbridled effort can win you a big game or even a decent streak but in the end talent is the most important thing and lack of it will always catch up to you.

Until we have a quarterback that can somewhat consistently get the ball downfield into our receivers hands in stride for walk in touchdowns or yards after the catch we'll never be able to consistently beat good teams.

Is wentz that guy?

So far it certainly looks like the answer is no but he has the physical tools to do it and it's a tough call when you're not really winning games because of your quarterback. 

If our starter was joe burrow or Justin Herbert we wouldn't be having a discussion about staying with the hot hand, unfortunately they're not, so this is more about not having better options than it is about heinicke and his winning ways.

Yeah, TH’s moxie isn’t going to be able to overcome poor defense, a stifled run game, or a lack of weapons.  Against Dallas, it was all 3 of those issues.  On the flip side, it has helped overcome (to some extent) poor pass pro.  I do think it’s totally fair to say it’s more about stout defensive play and Turner trying his best to take/keep the ball out of Heinicke’s hands.

I agree that there’s still a bit of a question as to whether Wentz can be ‘that guy’, but I think there’s also evidence to believe he can’t be with this oline and in this current style of offense.

But yes, in the end, Heinicke is lacking the talent we need at the position, Wentz is a question mark at best (that again, likely won’t be answered this year, behind this oline), so we need a better option back there for the future.  I will leave open the small possibility that Wentz comes in at some point soon and has success (despite poor pass pro), and we roll into next year with him and hopefully an improved oline.  Or that Howell steps in and has success.  Slim odds either way though IMO.

[wit33]

33 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

Goff's stats from 2016 to present:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GoffJa00.htm#2016-2022-sum:passing

 

Carr's stats from 2016 to present:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CarrDe02.htm#2016-2022-sum:passing

 

IMO both Goff and Carr would be an upgrade to what we have now, but you aren't winning a Super Bowl with either of them, so what's the point?

Why can’t you win a SB with them? Get a loaded team around a competent QB seems like a solid formula. I’m not a huge proponent of this formula due to the cost of these QBs at times, but opportunities do come to get these guys at a discounted rate. For example the Rams got Stafford at a great price for two seasons before extending him last season, that was part of the Stafford appeal for them.

 

I like model of a cheap veteran coupled with hunting for a young QB on a rookie deal, preferably a dual threat. 
 

Would love Goff at 3-6% of the cap. I could stomach Carr at 8-10%.
 

6 minutes ago, redskinss said:

I agree, my point was that heinicke and his moxie didn't save us.

 

Saving is reserved for Mahomes and Allen. The rest of the league needs talent around them to win. 
 

6 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Anybody who has watched sports or more so played sports has seen where adrenaline and unbridled effort can win you a big game or even a decent streak but in the end talent is the most important thing and lack of it will always catch up to you.

 

This is extreme nuances and a layered discussion. It’s not simple as talent wins, but talent is most important. With that said, we’ve seen many talented teams fail, you know. 

 

6 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Until we have a quarterback that can somewhat consistently get the ball downfield into our receivers hands in stride for walk in touchdowns or yards after the catch we'll never be able to consistently beat good teams.

 

The formula needed is to beat teams 10 through 32 consistently and compete with teams 1-8 or something like that. Get the program there, then all is good.