The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[wit33]

 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You are totally missing my point.  My point is when you make a trade with a team -- yes it is possible for teams to absorb a large chunk of their salary.  I flat out made my point about it that way multiple times.  Here you are just doubiling down on my point while explaining to me that its good when teams take on salary.  Yep, that's exactly my point.  And it does happen.

 

Why are you making this point? It seems moot. 

 

Every situation is different IMO. It seems you’re lumping these all together to make a point. 
 

The Panthers taking on $5mil vs hypothetically Washington paying Carr $35, $44, and $44 for next three season is obviously much different. The value of Carr is diminished due to his contract is all I’m saying.
 

A great part of the appeal of Stafford were his two remaining years on contract at great cost. The opposite is true for Carr. 
 

 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If we are, what's the point of re-explaining Carr's salary and explaining to me how the examples I gave are different than Carr considering his salary.   My examples are specifically about how teams can absorb other teams contracts. 

 

Again, why are you making this point? Not attempting to make this contentious, obviously we are missing one another on this specific topic. 
 

I don’t want Washington to pay Carr 35, 44, and 44 million the next three seasons. It appears you agree with this as well. 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Carr's speed isn't a superpower.  Even though he is one of the faster QBs in the league.  But WHEN he wants to scamper for a first down and escape pressure he can.  He's no statue back there by a long shot.

 

You’re comparing Stafford and Carr and play extenders, I’m saying Staffords ability to manipulate the pocket, extend plays, and create unique passing lanes is a super power of his and why he’s achieved the status he has. They’re  not in the same league in this regard. 
 

Carr is an athlete at the position that lacks feel, intuitiveness, and spatial awareness. This has been a problem area his entire career despite him being very athletic at the position, especially early on in his career. He’s failed up to this point in his career to leverage his athleticism at high level at the QB spot. 
 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Similar mobility to the current Wentz IMHO is beyond ridiculous.  Carr coming off of his injury years ago initially was reluctant to move much.  Before that and since he can move and has. 
 

 

Explore any metric or stat you’d like watch on game day, or speak with a knowledgeable Raider fan who watches every game (I value this)— Carr’s inability to manipulate the pocket, create, and run have been problem areas his entire career. 

It appears you’re comparing both on a 40 meter dash. Yes, Carr is faster, but at this point they’re comparable in how they use their legs in games. I can argue Wentz does it more effectively. 
 

Carr is a better QB overall at this stage it appears. 
 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As to Stafford, I've said I liked Stafford more.  But in my book, in that 2nd tier of QB's he's the closest to Stafford in that if you take him out of that environment and plug him with a team that he doesn't have to carry on his back like he has to do with the Raiders -- i think you'd see a major difference.  I don't feel that way at all with Jimmy G or Tannehill or Goff. 
 

 

I don’t disagree with you here. My belief is if you stick any competent QB in a dynamic situation they can experience great success. It become more challenging if you have to pay that guy big time money has always been point against yours for going 5-7 years. 

 

Jimmy G, Goff and Tannenhill have proven this. Not sure what you don’t agree with. If your only metric in winning the SB, you got me. I think that’s a weak point though. Can you win at a high level and get consistent at bats in the playoffs is the key. 
 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Stafford is more of an off platform guy than Carr. Both have strong arms.  Stafford's arm is stronger.  Carr is faster and can scamper for yards if he chooses easier than Stafford but Stafford isn't bad at it and is willing to do it more.  Both IMO have similar weaknesses -- don't give either a clean pocket, pressure, pressure and then take advantage of their inconsistent accuracy on the 2nd and third level.  IMO for the same reasons neither is elite. 
 

 

Stafford is better in management of situations in distress and has more in his QB tool box IMO. As I’ve mentioned, his ability to throw off platform and manipulate the pocket are the tow major edges I give him over Carr. 
 

Not mad if someone wants to argue Carr being on similar level. 

 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Tannehill, Goff, Jimmy G are just about pure game managers. With the game on the line both Stafford and Carr have shown to be super clutch.  I've posted numbers for both on that front before.  Both ironically are having rare down years on that front and losing some close games this year.  That's why I think you can buy Carr low this year.  Carr's ceiling is a peg better at least IMO than Jimmy G, Tannehill and Goff.   Tannehill has some sneaky mobility -- don't hate him -- but I've hated him in a key context for me over his career which is big moments in games, with Miami in particular he seemed to fold in big spots in big games.

 

I don’t value the subjective “clutch” stat. It’s fickle and with so many variable involved in an NFL game I give some value, but not as much as you do. 
 

Is clutch winning a game in the last seconds with a wide open throw for a TD when 3-7 to go to 4-7 in a season? On the surface it would be by most fans. 
 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

lol, Madden has Carr's speed rating at 82, that's pretty good.  He's not slow, he can move. 

 

It’s not about being slow or fast more to do with climbing the pocket, deciding when to run through the A or B gap or extend outside the hashes, spatial awareness, quickness… etc.. 
 

Sure, if we’re discussing the supreme dual threat guys, speed matters much more. Different discussion. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by wit33

[Renegade7]

@goskins10 I think we're closer on this issue then it may have appeared at first, with a major exception being our opinions on Wentz being truly done or not.  It's all good : )

 

Regards to specifics why they wont draft a first round QB, man, I'm going on what they've done with the opportunities presented to them each offseason, not to directly saying they won't draft a QB, but also more so language more towards trying to immediately be competitive as opposed to doing an actual traditional rebuild.

 

Quotes like this from his initial press conference add up to his actions since being here:

 

Quote

“I told them I don’t want to go through a five-year rebuilding process, because quite frankly I don’t have the patience,” Rivera said. ” … [Snyder] said ‘Coach, I want this to be the last job you have in the NFL. I want you to go from coaching the Redskins to collecting Social Security.’ I turn 58 next week, so I said that sounds pretty good to me.”

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/01/02/ron-rivera-redskins-press-conference-head-coach/

 

This isn't hindsight from my perspective because I felt completely alone beating the drum that we had higher priorities then a DE with #2 overall pick, and was overruled here and abroad because he was a "sure fire HOF'r" and folks like Tua and Herbert werent.

 

There's nothing about this that looks like a rebuild in comparison to others I've seen on other teams that got it right, I've never seen one that hadn't done this by now unless they already had a good enough veteran QB on the roster to buy time (which their actions every offseason trying to get a good enough veteran QB don't suggest that).

 

Yea, and to be fair and clear, this is my opinion and I am reacting to the perception you (up until this point) are treating Wentz being done as fact as well.  I really do believe, and my opinion, that if Ron was as done with Wentz as some other folks was, it wouldn't be a secret.

 

This quote is from right before the Chicago game, which we won, and tells me the same thing I'm think that Ron is going to put him because of his potential good being worth his potential bad and not costing games Taylor would win:

 

Quote

"There was a time he was very solid and then we had the unfortunate Philadelphia game and then he struggled a little bit in the Dallas game," he continued. "But the way he performed [Sunday], it just shows you what he's capable of. We chose him because we looked at what we felt were things that pointed towards him."

Rivera experienced a brief reprieve from rebuild-focused and Wentz-focused questions, but before he exited the media room, he was given an opportunity to clarify his stance on Wentz specifically. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsports.com/washington/commanders/delving-fully-ron-riveras-remarks-washingtons-rebuild-and-carson-wentz%3famp

[Skinsinparadise]

If I had to pick one thing that surprised me the most about Wentz in a bad way is that he'd be worse for Terry versus Heinicke.

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Why are you making this point? It seems moot. 

 

Every situation is different IMO. It seems you’re lumping these all together to make a point. 
 

The Panthers taking on $5mil vs hypothetically Washington paying Carr $35, $44, and $44 for next three season is obviously much different. The value of Carr is diminished due to his contract is all I’m saying.
 

A great part of the appeal of Stafford were his two remaining years on contract at great cost. The opposite is true for Carr. 
 

 

 

It's getting Twilght Zone level weird debating these points. 

 

You talk about taking on Derek Carr's salary.  My point is maybe you don't have to take on the salary citing these other QB trades.  Then you fire back about how those trades were good for the team because those teams didn't have to take on the full salary, etc.  Yeah all you are doing is repeating my point and acting like its you making the point and explaining my same point back to me as if I need the explanation from you.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

We talkin past each other, no reading comprehension issue here.  Never took you for a Taylor fan boy (and why i didnt say that), jus someone entirely done with Wentz.

 

And that's the problem, because neither of us want another overpriced Mediocre veteran but I'm jus as convinced they won't draft a QB as you are Wentz is done.

 

This is not a good situation, coaching staff is stubborn.  Saying there are issues with this team that have nothing to do with Wentz does not mean Wentz doesn't have issues that have nothing to do with the team, thought I acknowledged when saying they both turn the ball over and miss open receivers.

 

The part I don't think you or others is getting is i believe we are trapped with Wentz, not that I'm convinced Wentz is the answer.  The cost for Carr is going to be egregious in context to impact on cap and picks we need but keep trading for QBs, not to mention he's already in early 30s.  And the other veteran options disturb me as well. 

 

They won't draft one, I really wish they would in first round, I wish they would, but lower that pick is, the less likely (they'll make case they need a veteran to win now, not to lose time trying to develop someone).

 

So stop trying to convince me Wentz is done, I'm not convinced he is and it's in our best interest to make sure because this team is going to do something equally stupid if he actually is to replace him, and that would be like a double tap to a roster that for most part around QB and oline looks ready to do serious damage.

I don’t think Wentz is done.  My concern is whether we can protect him sufficiently.  Then there’s the idea of paying that much money for an immobile qb, and if we do pay him, can we significantly address the oline, and still pay Curl and Payne.  I don’t know.

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

So it’s been a few days now, the glow has faded some.  Is it too soon to say that the “team plays harder for him” and all the subsequent takes are not engraved in stone?

 

We had all these same debates last season.  Terry and the gang were full of great things to say about him.  Towards the end of the season though, the smiles were frowns and looks of frustration - either on the field or en route to the blue tent.  At the end of the season there was no talk of how he had earned the right to start/compete to start because of his intangibles or anything like that.  While the fans pointed to Covid, I didn’t hear that from anyone in the locker room, coaches or players.

 

I do think this years overall team is better and the competition is worse, so there’s a greater chance we don’t see the same fallout we saw last season.  But as cool as it is to grind out and win these games that bring a tear to Bill Callahan’s eye - it’s tough for me to see this as sustainable, even against lesser competition.

 

I’ve never really bought into it being about the team playing harder for him, but rather that he helps lift the energy level of the team.  With that said, if Wentz returned and played similarly to his first two games* - ie putting up big numbers/scores - I think that could have a similar affect on the team.  Confidence replacing energy (not to mention the D getting to play with leads, the run game opening up as the field is stretched).  Of course, I’m not sure we could get that level of play out of Wentz behind this oline… but maybe?

 

*not the first half of the Detroit game of course, lol

 

[CapsSkins]

47 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If I had to pick one thing that surprised me the most about Wentz in a bad way is that he'd be worse for Terry versus Heinicke.

 

 

 

I think this is a bit unfair to Wentz because he just got here and Terry wasn't a part of all the offseason activities given his contract situation. It's obvious Heinicke and McLaurin have an existing chemistry and therefore not surprising that swapping the QBs early in the season would cause an uptick in Terry's targets.

 

But it's not just comfort. Heinicke is clearly comfortable throwing 50/50 balls Terry's way to an extent that Wentz is not. And net net, that's a good thing. We've all heard about Terry taking pride in improving his contested catch ability and as our #1 he should be getting those opportunities. But it's also not a bad thing that Wentz was building chemistry with Dotson and getting Dyami involved.

 

Wentz's issues were: 1) mental decision-making, 2) zero pocket mobility, and 3) inconsistent touch on his throws.

 

2 seems like it is what it is. 3 probably won't get better but Heinicke has his own issues there. 1 I have no idea. Maybe it's a comfort thing, time in the system thing, IDK. But his mental issues were making his play rapidly approaching unwatchable.  

[Renegade7]

I don't want to come across as bias here, but do have an honest question:

 

What should Terry's target rate be now that Dotson is back healthy?  We still have Samuels, Thomas, and Gibson as well.

 

Did some Stat digging and noticed this for context even with the change in target percentage:

 

Ypt with Wentz = 10.1
Ypr with  Wentz = 16.85

Ypt with Taylor = 10.28
Ypr with Taylor = 15.16

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McLaTe00.htm

9 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I don’t think Wentz is done.  My concern is whether we can protect him sufficiently.  Then there’s the idea of paying that much money for an immobile qb, and if we do pay him, can we significantly address the oline, and still pay Curl and Payne.  I don’t know.

 

 

The "can we protect him" question is a fair one, but different one regarding cost. 

 

The oline is playing better from PFF scores and general observations, and we better keep running the ball to protect him like we trying to protect Taylor or we asking for it.

 

But the cost thing, getting rid of him won't change how much it cost for a QB that knows what they are doing, they are expensive, is what it is no matter who it is, cutting him will give that money to someone else, possibly more.

 

Edit: the cap saving from cutting Wentz doesn't excite me because we'd have to turn around and give it to someone else anyway to help address QB position.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Renegade7

[Skinsinparadise]

42 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

I think this is a bit unfair to Wentz because he just got here and Terry wasn't a part of all the offseason activities given his contract situation. It's obvious Heinicke and McLaurin have an existing chemistry and therefore not surprising that swapping the QBs early in the season would cause an uptick in Terry's targets.

 

 

From my perspective, which was what my post is about -- I personally am surprised that Heinicke has such a disparity as for Terry getting the ball that much more under him.  I didn't think I'd need an explanation from anyone at this point about hey Wentz couldn't build up the same chemistry.  So for me its a surprise.  If its not a surprise for other people, that's cool.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[CapsSkins]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

From my perspective, which was what my post is about -- I personally am surprised that Heinicke has such a disparity as for Terry getting the ball that much more under him.  I didn't think I'd need an explanation from anyone at this point about hey Wentz couldn't build up the same chemistry.  So for me its a surprise.  If its not a surprise for other people, that's cool.

 

Not to be pedantic but your post went beyond just expressing surprise at the target disparity and characterized Wentz as "worse for Terry", which is what I responded to as being a bit unfair given he only had 6 games at the beginning of the season with other extenuating circumstances (O-Line shuffling, no B Rob, no Logan Thomas, defense playing worse, etc.).

 

The reason it's worth clarifying is because it influences the evaluation for next year as a Plan B/C.

Edited November 17, 2022 by CapsSkins

[skinny21]

56 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

The "can we protect him" question is a fair one, but different one regarding cost. 

 

The oline is playing better from PFF scores and general observations, and we better keep running the ball to protect him like we trying to protect Taylor or we asking for it.

 

But the cost thing, getting rid of him won't change how much it cost for a QB that knows what they are doing, they are expensive, is what it is no matter who it is, cutting him will give that money to someone else, possibly more.

 

Edit: the cap saving from cutting Wentz doesn't excite me because we'd have to turn around and give it to someone else anyway to help address QB position.

Oline is better for sure.  How much better is the question.  I also wonder how much of an affect (if at all) does Heinicke have on the line.  For example, are dlines more likely to try to keep him in the pocket, ie maintain rush discipline?  Obviously he’s not nearly the threat to run that a guy like Hurts (or others) is, but we’ve seen a linebacker spy him at times, so his scrambling ability is at least in defensive coordinators minds to some extent.

To be clear, I’m not trying to draw the conclusion that Heinicke is having some big impact (or even any impact necessarily) on our oline play.  I just don’t know how it plays out with Wentz back there.

 

As to continuing the run heavy approach (maybe slightly modified) with Wentz under center, I have questions there as well.  How much has this time off helped him in understanding the offense?  How much of an affect, if any, has watching film of Taylor playing in this offense (scheme and this current style) had on Wentz?  Does Wentz’s arm talent make our PA passing less effective or more effective?  Does it stretch defenses more (helping our run game)?  Can he be consistent in picking up key first downs to sustain drives (behind this oline)?  Can he get the ball out quicker than he has in the past?  I just don’t know either way.

 

I think you make a good point about cost.  Easy for me to say we should just draft a guy (if we can), possibly bring Taylor back, and 1) have Howell/the rook compete for the starter role and 2) have a very cheap qb room.  Easy to envision this being a nice situation for a young qb - stout D, solid run game, plenty of weapons, and that those cost savings can be applied to retaining guys and upgrading in areas.  But as you allude to, is the staff going to be willing to go that route?  I think it’s a pretty good bet that they lean toward the veteran route (Wentz or someone else), and in that scenario, you’re right - we’re likely on the hook for a pretty big qb salary.  So maybe it’s a moot point.

Edited November 17, 2022 by skinny21

[zCommander]

I think it's more of trust factor than chemistry with Terry. If you look at last year Terry was pretty much all Taylor had. He also trusts Terry's ability to get the 50/50 ball and will throw a risky pass knowing he is his guy that can haul it in. This year it is the same - no Dotson until last week - but Terry is still his guy. Why Wentz didn't make Terry his guy is a little baffling.

 

As a QB you want to get the ball to your playmakers and you have to trust them that they will get the ball and throw on anticipation. Was Wentz being too careful in that he didn't trust himself that Terry will get the 50/50 or anticipated one if thrown to him? Taylor is a risk taker - hence the moxie - and Wentz likes to play it safe to the point of holding the ball too long for the WR to get open a bit which led to sacks instead on most plays. 

 

Will have to see what Taylor does with Dotson on Sunday in the Texans game since there is no chemistry with him. Trust has to prevail here as well. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Not to be pedantic but your post went beyond just expressing surprise at the target disparity and characterized Wentz as "worse for Terry"

 

I know what my intended thought was in my own post.  By worst, I simply meant that Terry gets the ball significantly more with Taylor versus Wentz -- and yeah in my book that's worse for Terry -- not neutral, not better but worse.  And yes my main point it does surprise me irrespective of the time missed between the two to build chemistry in the off season. 

 

Nothing that deep though.  It's not a Heinicke Hive driven thought -- no one would accuse me of being part of that group.  I was pro Wentz over Taylor before the season.  Now I am out on Wentz and OK still with Taylor as a backup.  Wentz to me context or not was disappointing IMO for a number of reasons that I expressed on this thread. 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[CapsSkins]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I know what my intended thought was in my own post.  By worst, I simply meant that Terry gets the ball signifigantly more with Taylor versus Wentz -- and yeah in my book that's worse for Terry -- not neutral, not better but worse. 

 

Nothing that deep though.  It's not a Heinicke Hive driven thought -- no one would accuse me of being part of that group.  I was pro Wentz over Taylor before the season.  Now I am out on Wentz and OK still with Taylor as a backup.  Wentz to me context or not was disappointing IMO for a number of reasons that I expressed on this thread. 

 

 

Right. I'm just saying that I think Wentz could improve from the abysmal showing he gave us at the start of the season based on a number of factors, including building chemistry and familiarity with the system along with other parts of the roster either returning or emerging, that complicates the evaluation heading into 2023.

 

I think everyone would like a clear upgrade so Heinicke can return to his #2 job. The options are limited and imperfect. Two years ago, I was to my recollection the first on the board that said I'd send a 1st round pick for Derek Carr and took a ton of arrows for it. I'd still do that deal, but it's not clear he'll be available (again, I don't really see why LV would discard a top-16 QB unless he demands a trade). Aside from Carr, there's the wildcard of Brady who might be enticed by a Bezos/Jay Z purchase of the team, but that's a lot of big if's and at 46 that carries its own risks. There's Garoppolo, who's a clear upgrade from Heinicke/Wentz but not a large upgrade and he probably won't be cheap or durable. Then we get into the wasteland of the Baker Mayfield's and Sam Darnold's and Teddy Bridgewater's where you might as well keep Wentz/Heinicke or the draft, which is its own crapshoot.

 

My point being, bringing back Wentz at a lower cap number might end up being the best option IF you think the start to the season was his floor and he is likely to improve based on the above: time in the system, familiarity with teammates, two-headed monster rushing attack, improved O-Line, ascendant defense.

 

Plus at a ~$10m cap number you can have a legit competition in camp with Heinicke, whom you can bring back at ~$5M. If your entire QB room costs ~$16M you can use the extra money to re-sign Payne and keep building depth. I don't think it's anybody's Plan A, but it might end up being Plan C rather than Plan F.  

[skinny21]

What a strange position for the team (mainly Rivera/Turner) to be in.  There are legitimate reasons to play all 3 of our qbs, yet there’s no real confidence in any of them.  There is a question (IMO) as to whether Wentz or Howell could be starters of the future for us, and yet they (in effect) have to play the one guy they know is not our future starter because of how the team has played (especially after beating Philly).  Sucks to be them, lol.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Right. I'm just saying that I think Wentz could improve from the abysmal showing he gave us at the start of the season based on a number of factors, including building chemistry and familiarity with the system along with other parts of the roster either returning or emerging, that complicates the evaluation heading into 2023.

 

I think everyone would like a clear upgrade so Heinicke can return to his #2 job. The options are limited and imperfect. Two years ago, I was to my recollection the first on the board that said I'd send a 1st round pick for Derek Carr and took a ton of arrows for it. I'd still do that deal, but it's not clear he'll be available (again, I don't really see why LV would discard a top-16 QB unless he demands a trade). Aside from Carr, there's the wildcard of Brady who might be enticed by a Bezos/Jay Z purchase of the team, but that's a lot of big if's and at 46 that carries its own risks. There's Garoppolo, who's a clear upgrade from Heinicke/Wentz but not a large upgrade and he probably won't be cheap or durable. Then we get into the wasteland of the Baker Mayfield's and Sam Darnold's and Teddy Bridgewater's where you might as well keep Wentz/Heinicke or the draft, which is its own crapshoot.

 

My point being, bringing back Wentz at a lower cap number might end up being the best option IF you think the start to the season was his floor and he is likely to improve based on the above: time in the system, familiarity with teammates, two-headed monster rushing attack, improved O-Line, ascendant defense.

 

Plus at a ~$10m cap number you can have a legit competition in camp with Heinicke, whom you can bring back at ~$5M. If your entire QB room costs ~$16M you can use the extra money to re-sign Payne and keep building depth. I don't think it's anybody's Plan A, but it might end up being Plan C rather than Plan F.  

 

I posted a ton on Carr, still do.  

 

As for why the Raiders might let him go, the thought is they don't want to cut loose McDaniels so fast, they need to scapegoat someone and or make a change and they likely have a top draft pick to go young and reset at QB.  And the kicker is they can get out of that contract this off season.  I'd say more than 50% shot Carr gets moved.  It's the perfect storm.  I was nowhere near as confident that they'd let him go last off season.  the other thing is Keim would say last off season he heard, Mark Davis wasn't a Carr guy, it was Gruden.  But McDaniels wanted Carr, too.  But I think for McDaniels own survival he might want to reboot with a young QB.

 

Only reason why I am harping on it now is I got the impression that this FO was VERY interested in Carr last off season.

 

As far as Wentz, the only way I am interested is if there is some explanation (injury or something) that explains his sluggishness in the pocket.  I am not interested in him even at reduced salary.  Wentz has a strong arm but never known for accuracy.  So if the new Wentz is he's a pure pocket passer -- then I don't think he has the pocket presence or accuracy to be a good pocket passer. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[MariusVT]

No more retread QBs.  Furthermore, if this team isn't sold and has a new owner ahead of the draft, I don't want us having any part taking a QB where the outgoing owner might overrule others and take "his guy".  Roll with Heiny and his limitations, the whole offense just plays harder for him than Wentz and it's been apparent since he took over.  Only reason you go back to Wentz is because if Danny Dbag forces Ron to.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

28 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

What a strange position for the team (mainly Rivera/Turner) to be in.  There are legitimate reasons to play all 3 of our qbs, yet there’s no real confidence in any of them.  There is a question (IMO) as to whether Wentz or Howell could be starters of the future for us, and yet they (in effect) have to play the one guy they know is not our future starter because of how the team has played (especially after beating Philly).  Sucks to be them, lol.

This is what I was getting at with some of my earlier posts.  I realize everyone is riding high on the Eagles win and I get it - it’s cool.  But looking forward, Ron is likely in a real pickle.  Damned if you do, damned if you don’t type situation.  He bought some time with Carson not being cleared to practice.  But there will come a time in the next 2-3 weeks where he has to make a huge decision.

Edited November 17, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[CapsSkins]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This is what I was getting at with some of my earlier posts.  I realize everyone is riding high on the Eagles win and I get it - it’s cool.  But looking forward, Ron is likely in a real pickle.  Damned if you do, damned if you don’t type situation.  He bought some time with Carson not being cleared to practice.  But there will come a time in the next 2-3 weeks where he has to make a Pugh decision.

 

Carson is now "cleared to throw" but Ron can milk "return to practice" and "get in football shape" for a few weeks to buy more time, and more importantly, let Heinicke clear the 30% snap threshold for the conditional pick and then figure out what to do after the bye.

[Chris 44]

11 minutes ago, MariusVT said:

No more retread QBs.  Furthermore, if this team isn't sold and has a new owner ahead of the draft, I don't want us having any part taking a QB where the outgoing owner might overrule others and take "his guy".  Roll with Heiny and his limitations, the whole offense just plays harder for him than Wentz and it's been apparent since he took over.  Only reason you go back to Wentz is because if Danny Dbag forces Ron to.

Im hoping "Danny Dbag" has already checked out on all things football related and is in no frame of mind to be contemplating football or personnel decisions.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Carson is now "cleared to throw" but Ron can milk "return to practice" and "get in football shape" for a few weeks to buy more time, and more importantly, let Heinicke clear the 30% snap threshold for the conditional pick and then figure out what to do after the bye.

I’m with you on that.  Ron gave the old wink wink to the med staff.  Bought him time to maneuver around his “rest of the season” statement.  That statement alone felt bold for Ron, probably still buzzing from the win.

[CapsSkins]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I posted a ton on Carr, still do.  

 

As for why the Raiders might let him go, the thought is they don't want to cut loose McDaniels so fast, they need to scapegoat someone and or make a change and they likely have a top draft pick to go young and reset at QB.  And the kicker is they can get out of that contract this off season.  I'd say more than 50% shot Carr gets moved.  It's the perfect storm.  I was nowhere near as confident that they'd let him go last off season.  the other thing is Keim would say last off season he heard, Mark Davis wasn't a Carr guy, it was Gruden.  But McDaniels wanted Carr, too.  But I think for McDaniels own survival he might want to reboot with a young QB.

 

Only reason why I am harping on it now is I got the impression that this FO was VERY interested in Carr last off season.

 

As far as Wentz, the only way I am interested is if there is some explanation (injury or something) that explains his sluggishness in the pocket.  I am not interested in him even at reduced salary.  Wentz has a strong arm but never known for accuracy.  So if the new Wentz is he's a pure pocket passer -- then I don't think he has the pocket presence or accuracy to be a good pocket passer. 

 

I hope you're right on Carr. I would LOVE to have him considering I feel we are a few O-Line upgrades (not hard to find) and a real QB away from serious contention. Like,  NFC Championship Game-level contention. In my mind, we are approaching "burn the draft picks for immediate help" level of roster building a la the Rams but only provided we figure out a real solution at QB.

 

Carr-Heinicke-Howell is a Super Bowl-caliber QB room on THIS team, provided added O-Line depth and some help with LB/DB.

 

The way this team is coming together, I feel we are so close to gunning for games in late January.    

[Est.1974]

29 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Only reason why I am harping on it now is I got the impression that this FO was VERY interested in Carr last off season.

I think you are correct. If Rivera and Co stick around in 2023 Carr would be a distinct possibility if available.

[CapsSkins]

4 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

I think you are correct. If Rivera and Co stick around in 2023 Carr would be a distinct possibility if available.

 

If Carr is available he is by far the best option for this team at this juncture. I'd be doing backflips if we got Carr. I'd have real optimism for this team even apart from the Snyder Sale.

[Wildbunny]

11 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Carr-Heinicke-Howell is a Super Bowl-caliber QB room on THIS team, provided added O-Line depth and some help with LB/DB.

For whatever reason, I believe we would still happen with Heinicke starting for us at QB at any point in the season.

 

He's not the best QBin the league, but he's the one that gets the most out of his teammates, Offense or Defense. And you can absolutely not downplay that.

We've spend 38 millions on QB that got us nowhere.

 

At some point, if you're smart, ride with him as a stopgap for a year or two, he's at least fun to watch and can get you into playoff contention as well...

[method man]

14 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

I hope you're right on Carr. I would LOVE to have him considering I feel we are a few O-Line upgrades (not hard to find) and a real QB away from serious contention. Like,  NFC Championship Game-level contention. In my mind, we are approaching "burn the draft picks for immediate help" level of roster building a la the Rams but only provided we figure out a real solution at QB.

 

Carr-Heinicke-Howell is a Super Bowl-caliber QB room on THIS team, provided added O-Line depth and some help with LB/DB.

 

The way this team is coming together, I feel we are so close to gunning for games in late January.    

 

I agree. The only other premium position that is needed is a second CB. Interior OL and LB depth can be found through the draft and free agency. Need to find a way to keep Payne. 

Just now, Wildbunny said:

For whatever reason, I believe we would still happen with Heinicke starting for us at QB at any point in the season.

 

He's not the best QBin the league, but he's the one that gets the most out of his teammates, Offense or Defense. And you can absolutely not downplay that.

We've spend 38 millions on QB that got us nowhere.

 

At some point, if you're smart, ride with him as a stopgap for a year or two, he's at least fun to watch and can get you into playoff contention as well...

 

I think Carr does too. You get the sense that his teammates really like him and play hard for him

[CapsSkins]

1 minute ago, Wildbunny said:

For whatever reason, I believe we would still happen with Heinicke starting for us at QB at any point in the season.

 

He's not the best QBin the league, but he's the one that gets the most out of his teammates, Offense or Defense. And you can absolutely not downplay that.

We've spend 38 millions on QB that got us nowhere.

 

At some point, if you're smart, ride with him as a stopgap for a year or two, he's at least fun to watch and can get you into playoff contention as well...

 

We'll have an opportunity to test that thesis over the next month or two. Perhaps even into January.

 

My feeling is that Heinicke's ceiling is low enough that you need to find an upgrade. The hospital balls, the floaters, the bone-headed decision every once in a while, all adds up to below what we need over a full season and hopefully postseason.

 

Other QBs have some of those issues, but not all. Someone like Brady doesn't have a cannon arm or mobility but he doesn't make the boneheaded decisions. Someone like Josh Allen who nevertheless makes the occasional bone-headed decision doesn't have the physical limitations.

 

Heinicke can come in and win any given game. That puts him above most all backup QBs. But I think the team is ready to find a better QB to lead them into February ball. The time for stopgaps is nearing completion and we're ready for more serious contention.