The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Est.1974]

I believe there is an injury guarantee against Wentz’s 2023 salary. So, if you are already thinking he’s not the answer, is there really a reason to put him on the field and risk injury? Aside from that fact, he’s not exactly an upgrade at this stage. Add on top of that the draft pick compensation situation.

 

Yeah, I’m leaving him on the sideline.

[Renegade7]

8 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I wonder if their plan is to keep Wentz out because he's "not 100% yet" so they can see how TH plays over the next game or two. Basically use the medical excuse to delay their final decision.

 

Is the smartest thing they could possibly do here, imo.  If Wentz isn't healthy enough go get a fair shot to get his job back, don't throw him to the Wolves knowing they hungry. 

 

Texans and Falcons are winnable games that if Taylor loses either would help solidify the case of needing Wentz back out there to play the Giants.

 

And thats inportant because the last 5 games of the season won't be easy at all, Watson will be back with the Browns by then.  Have to be sure because I agree with sticking with whoever they choose, not adding more pressure by waffling.

 

The San Fran game is basically a playoff game, that Dallas game could be a playin game.  ****'s about to get real real fast.

[NoCalMike]

If Wentz isn't healthy he shouldn't play.  Throughout this entire conversation I hope I was at least clear about Wentz needing to be 100% healthy to even start the should he/shouldn't he, talk.   It's an interesting 2 game stretch right now because realistically, I think either QB could manage to do enough to win both games.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

It's a hard no from me on Carr.  Mainly because that will be the 3rd straight year where go after another team's cast off.  2nd straight year where they trade for one.  And to me you only do that if you love the guy as a player.  

 

I am not a hey I don't want to try something again because I tried something last year too kind of guy -- especially at QB.  You keep swinging IMO.  I posted an article about it years back where Roseman stated his philosophy on QBs which is some teams stop because they did something else the year before or whatever -- his take is don't stop, keep swinging until you hit.  I agree.  

 

And all the fishes in the sea aren't all alike to me.  Context matters.  Whose the player?  At what salary?  what other options do you have?  What does the roster look like?  I hated the Alex Smith deal for example.  Why?  I didn't think he was good enough to make major hay with the roster we had at that time and at his age, you never know when things can go south. 

 

I liked the idea of trading for Stafford (looks like I was right on that), liked the idea of trading for R. Wilson (looks like I was wrong on that).  Every player is a different narrative.

 

Every Qb story for me and every situation at least has its own narrative, one to me has nothing to do with another. 

 

If this defense sucked like last year and i didn't like the weapons, then Carr would be "meh" in my book.  I don't want a QB to tread water. 

 

But I think THIS team is an O line and good QB away from doing damage including in the playoffs.  Some say you can't get the QB and O line in one off season.  I am 100% on a different page.  You should EASILY fill both spots.  It's not like we are drafting 7 guards next season.  You turn this O line around which I do think Masko can do.  Before this season, we all said Masko is a genius and had good O lines even with backups playing.  Now all of a sudden this is going to be really hard and a ton of effort and capital to reset it leaving hardly any other upgrades?  They can fix the O line and get the QB IMO.

 

I'd be all for the draft it we were picking top 10 but its not looking good on that front.  And among the QBs in this draft, I am not seeing an obvious 2nd tier guy that can come in and contribute.   And I think this is a playoff defense and a playoff team weapons wise.  I don't want to waste that.  I don't see this team anymore as some 3 year rebuild so lets slow play it all.  I think they can win ASAP.  And I feel almost as strongly that Carr can win here that I did about Stafford. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

Yeah I think I’d easily get back on the trail for Carr talk in the offseason. Various caveats on cost, actual contract details etc, but in principle I’d take him.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

[Redskins 2021]

 Carr could be ok depending on the cost. Qb changing teams did not do well this year. You could say Wentz may have been the best of the bunch.Wilson, Ryan, Mayfield have all been bad. Alot of teams will be looking for a Qb this year

Us

ATL

Car

Det

Hou

Ind

No

Lv

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

 Carr could be ok depending on the cost. Alot of teams will be looking Qb this year

ATL

Us

Car

Det

Hou

Ind

No

Lv

 

 

 

True.  It's part of the reason why my eggs aren't in just one basket.  Carr to me is an option but can't be stuck on just one.   What would be Carr's appeal to coming here?  He's always had crap defenses.    At least in recent years, a bottom tier running game.  It's all on him.  

 

I do think we can get the O line back on track.  And lol, its not like the Raiders have had killer O lines, PFF ranked their O line 29th before the start of the season.

 

If Dan is gone and that part is a key, I don't think this place is unattractive like it was last year. 

 

Part of my focus on Carr was I know via Keim's podcast that this FO was VERY interested in him last off season, so i do think there is a chance they circle back again.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

You will have to gut the defense to get Carr. It’s a black hole and will leave the fan base blaming everything else on the team for losses because Carr will have a cool TD to INT ratio and 4500 yards.. And he can’t create or extend. Don’t pay this type of QB.  Yuck!
 

Ryan Tannenhill (If he becomes available in free agency) should be the target if they go the veteran QB route. Same caliber of player. Sure one person can like one more than the other, but they are undoubtedly very comparable. Offer him 6-8% of the cap and keep it moving. 
 

Jimmy G, Tannenhill, Goff, or Darnold                    (@Skinsinparadise ;)) similar on field value to Carr at a far lower cost.

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, wit33 said:

You will have to gut the defense to get Carr. It’s a black hole and will leave the fan base blaming everything else on the team for losses because Carr will have a cool TD to INT ratio and 4500 yards.. And he can’t create or extend. Don’t pay this type of QB.  Yuck!
 

 

I don't agree with your take of Carr as a player.  

 

2 days ago or so you were on the same page of get Carr if you can get him at the right price.  Now on a different track?  

 

10 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Ryan Tannenhill (If he becomes available in free agency) should be the target if they go the veteran QB route. Same caliber of player. Sure one person can like one more than the other, but they are undoubtedly very comparable. Offer him 6-8% of the cap and keep it moving. 
 

 

That part of your post is a good summation of why me and you rarely get on the same page when we talk about the nonelite QBs.

 

Joe Theismann was on 980 today and had a good comment about QBs and he goes trust your eyes watch these guys and trust your eyes over whatever narrative people throw at you.

 

I watched a ton of Tannehill over the years, mostly when he was in Miami.  I watched my share of Carr.  There are reasons why I don't like Tannehill.  And there are reasons why I do like Carr.  I can't rally around lumping them together just because some characterize the two as being on the same tier.  Feels lazy to me and I just can't do it.

 

10 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Jimmy G

 

He's OK.  Sort of a higher end Heinicke.  He's a game manager and his teammates love him.  Downside is he's injury prone. Depends on his salary.

 

10 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Goff

 

don't hate him, don't love him.  So so IMO.  15th in QBR sounds about right.

 

10 minutes ago, wit33 said:

or Darnold                 

 

 

I recall you liked Darnold when he was available 2 years ago.  But you are still doubling down?

 

He sucks.  i wouldn't want Darnold as our #3 QB.  I''d take Heinicke over Darnold by a mile.

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[NewCliche21]

I think it would be dumb to decide tomorrow's outfit based on yesterday's weather.

If you're not constantly evaluating and re-evaluating variables, understanding that they by definition vary from time interval to time interval, then you're more interested in proving yourself right than doing what's best for the team.  This applies from owner down to intern waterboy. 

[El Mexican]

20 hours ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

That wasn’t directed at me, right? Because I don’t think I once claimed we should…..but I don’t see another post on that page that you could possibly be referring to, so maybe you misunderstood what I said? 

 

Sorry bro, too many posts in this forum.

 

My comment was directed to another person. Can't remember who, though.

[wit33]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't agree with your take of Carr as a player.  

 

2 days ago or so you were on the same page of get Carr if you can get him at the right price.  Now on a different track?

 

 

I value competence at the QB position. Carr provides competence, but at too great of a cost. In my post, I shared you don’t pay this style of QB 12-15% of your cap, it makes it difficult and your committed to him. The team acquiring him will have to take on some brutal cap hits for next 3 years. Sure, if Raider want to pay half his salary and we get around 20mil per season, I’m down (not gonna happen). 
 

I rather seek competence at a cheaper cost while still maintaining flexibility to draft a QB. Carr provides, so does Jimmy G, Tammy, and Goff. These are pocket QBs, as is Carr. You don’t pay for pocket QBs unless they’re savants of some sort. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

  

 

 

That part of your post is a good summation of why me and you rarely get on the same page when we talk about the nonelite QBs.

 

We have always differed on what we are inclined to pay this level of QB. I also factor in playmaking and overall mobility highly… more than most, so I’m already in a negative bias towards Carr admittedly. 
 

Pocket QBs should be thankful an organization wants to start them and work with them financially. 
 

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Joe Theismann was on 980 today and had a good comment about QBs and he goes trust your eyes watch these guys and trust your eyes over whatever narrative people throw at you.

 

Yes, this how I’ve operated from 10 plus years on this board. Can careless about old norms or narratives. The NFL narrative has been to overpay for mediocrity and at times competence at the QB spot. 
 

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I watched a ton of Tannehill over the years, mostly when he was in Miami.  I watched my share of Carr.  There are reasons why I don't like Tannehill.  And there are reasons why I do like Carr.  I can't rally around lumping them together just because some characterize the two as being on the same tier.  Feels lazy to me and I just can't do it.

I’ve watched some of both, I give the edge to Carr as well, but nothing that warrants him to be paid like an elite QB. You lose a competitive advantage of you have competent QB going up against elite QB and they both make a similar amount. In what world does this make sense. 

 

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

He's OK.  Sort of a higher end Heinicke.  He's a game manager and his teammates love him.  Downside is he's injury prone. Depends on his salary.

 

I’m a pro Jimmy G guy, but must be at 5% of the cap or so. Get him and draft a young stud. 

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I recall you liked Darnold when he was available 2 years ago.  But you are still doubling down?

 

He sucks.  i wouldn't want Darnold as our #3 QB.  I''d take Heinicke over Darnold by a mile.

 

I included Darnold as a joke. I was open to Darnolds services due to my number 1 metric for a QB is ability to manipulate the pocket and extend plays and he’s pretty effective in this area. I had no other opinion on him other than that. He’s been terrible as you predicted. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by wit33

[Renegade7]

Everytime I see posts about cutting Wentz, whether the next step is bringing back Taylor as a backup or not, it really is unnerving not seeing any follow up to the plan in the same.

 

1. Cut Wentz

2. Bring Taylor back as a backup

3. ....

4. PROFIT

 

Finally seeing more convos on who's the starter in 2023 if it isn't either of them is encouraging, because the options are just as concerning.

[srtman04]

25 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

This is the type of stuff that can't be taught....

[wit33]

1 minute ago, srtman04 said:

 

This is the type of stuff that can't be taught....

And goes over the head of many. 

[dunfer]

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Everytime I see posts about cutting Wentz, whether the next step is bringing back Taylor as a backup or not, it really is unnerving not seeing any follow up to the plan in the same.

 

1. Cut Wentz

2. Bring Taylor back as a backup

3. ....

4. PROFIT

 

Finally seeing more convos on who's the starter in 2023 if it isn't either of them is encouraging, because the options are just as concerning.

Im hoping Sam makes strides in the offense this offesason. Heiny with a rocket arm

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, dunfer said:

Im hoping Sam makes strides in the offense this offesason. Heiny with a rocket arm

 

Enough to be a quality starter is not a good plan to bank on, but I do as well, one QB ain't enough, folks get hurt.

[dunfer]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Enough to be a quality starter is not a good plan to bank on, but I do as well, one QB ain't enough, folks get hurt.

then we get heiny... and the profit.

 

Im just tired of paying big for retreads that never work out

Edited November 16, 2022 by dunfer

[Renegade7]

18 minutes ago, dunfer said:

then we get heiny... and the profit.

 

It's not profit if the coaching staff has tried to replace him two years in a row.  

 

Want to talk reading between the lines, at best I'm hearing hot hand talk, not can he be the long term answer talk.

 

Because hes not.

 

18 minutes ago, dunfer said:

Im just tired of paying big for retreads that never work out

 

Same same.  I badly want a rookie to develop to buy us time with all the young talent that will one by one want new contracts.

 

I'm not seeing how a 1st round prospect bound to make rookie mistakes would be worse then Taylor, I don't. 

 

Edit: folks made excuses for Young being generational and Tua and Herbert not, we don't need a HOF QB, we need a QB period right now.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Renegade7

[FootballZombie]

35 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Everytime I see posts about cutting Wentz, whether the next step is bringing back Taylor as a backup or not, it really is unnerving not seeing any follow up to the plan in the same.

 

1. Cut Wentz

2. Bring Taylor back as a backup

3. ....

4. PROFIT

 

Finally seeing more convos on who's the starter in 2023 if it isn't either of them is encouraging, because the options are just as concerning.

 

 

You got a dude from Harvard touching on the idea that Scott Turner's system is hard to pick up. A dude w/ a possible photographic memory has issues with it. We won't have a high end draft pick and TH is not an option to start next year.

 

Unless you can get your hands on a plus QB like Carr, your not doing better than re-signing Carson to a lower number and running him back.

 

Its not even a matter of getting someone better than Wentz. Maybe you can bring in Jimmy G or Goff but their gains would be offset by the struggle to learn the system. They are probably not enough of an upgrade to be very impactful.

[NickyJ]

The Vikings sound like they're going to stop the post-win chains ceremony because of Heinicke. If the Vikings want to make it equal, they need Kirk to start wearing shoes with the team colors of whoever they beat.

 

 

[skinny21]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

ESPN and CBS both show Wentz with a higher rating then Taylor and a near 40 ypg difference in passing. 

 

The most noticible drop off is in passing yards per game, and this is with Taylor seemingly depending on at least on bomb per game jus to break 200.

 

Plenty of points to why Taylor should start instead, so no need to cherry pick stats to make more.

Yes, but they threw more with Wentz (roughly 40 attempts/game vs 30).  Almost inexplicably, considering the sense that Heinicke is running a dink and dunk offense, Taylor has a higher yards/attempt, air yards/attempt and yards/completion.  I’ll add that I’m surprised to find out that their td% is so close - 4.3 for Wentz, 4.1 for Heinicke.

You’re right about the rating, but probably also fair to point out that TH’s QBR is much higher.

 

Just to be clear, that’s not me trying to argue Heinicke is the better qb than Wentz.

 

On a separate note, I’m not sure what Ron gains by naming his qb for the rest of the season.  If it’s Heinicke - he already plays every game like it’s his last.  If it’s Wentz, you’re putting him behind a shaky oline, and if that causes major problems (which is pretty easy to envision), then you’re probably going to have to bench him and are left dealing with the fallout of that.

[Kelvin Bryant]

24 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

The Vikings sound like they're going to stop the post-win chains ceremony because of Heinicke. If the Vikings want to make it equal, they need Kirk to start wearing shoes with the team colors of whoever they beat.

 

 

 

Now Taylor has wrested the chains thing away from the Vikings. He continues to destroy all in his path.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Kelvin Bryant