The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

Another Athletic article

 

 

[illone]

Hey at least this thread will shift from "arguing about the potential of Wentz" to "arguing what Wentz actually did for us" in the coming weeks.

[Conn]

“If he wasn’t a 1st round pick would he even be in the league right now” shows just how far down the stupid narrative hole these idiots have fallen in trying to out-hot-take each other. The 24/7 sports media just echo chambers a take around so long and with such velocity that by the end of the offseason people are offhandedly saying stupid **** that wouldn’t have even made sense 4 months earlier. It’s embarrassing to witness.

[Conn]

“I’m always excited to coach. When you’re in it, you (think), ‘Hey, this is what we got’ and you’re going to make the most of it. That’s my job. You take everything one year at a time”.

 

— Turner, in response to a question referencing “more potential at QB than before”

 

I mean that’s about as large an indictment on Heinicke, from a guy who likes him no less, as you’re going to find. Brutal. 

[TheShredder]

There's some large issues on that OL.

Just assuming it will be as good as the last couple of years would be fanatical hope.

Both Centers are coming of major injuries and are still questionable to when they'll be able to play.

They replaced an All-PRO with Trai Turner who just played his worst season.

60% of the OL is different and less talented.

I don't understand how that makes anyone confident that they'll protect Wentz.

[Bifflog]

1 hour ago, TheShredder said:

There's some large issues on that OL.

Just assuming it will be as good as the last couple of years would be fanatical hope.

Both Centers are coming of major injuries and are still questionable to when they'll be able to play.

They replaced an All-PRO with Trai Turner who just played his worst season.

60% of the OL is different and less talented.

I don't understand how that makes anyone confident that they'll protect Wentz.

 

That unit's MO under Matsko has been that they pretty much played at a consistent level no matter the fluctuating lineup, yeah?

 

I really just never got the sense that Scherff was the straw that stirred the drink.

 

WASHINGTON COMMANDERS

Letting G Brandon Scherff walk, replacing with G Trai Turner

Washington’s decision to franchise tag Scherff a second time in 2021 to the tune of $18.036 million was an extremely puzzling move, but they were smart to finally cut their losses this offseason and let him walk to Jacksonville where he signed a three-year, $49.5 million deal that reset the guard market at $16.5 million per year as he enters his age-31 season. 

Scherff is a great player when he’s on the field, with his 81.1 grade over the last four seasons ranking 11th among all guards, but he hasn’t played in 80% of his offense's snaps for four consecutive seasons. Scherff has an extremely high floor as a run-blocker and pass-protector — over seven seasons, he’s failed to earn a 70.0 or better grade just one time in each facet. That makes him deserving of a top-of-market deal, but Washington didn’t have to be the one to give it to him. The Commanders have done a great job evaluating offensive line talent for years, and signing Turner for just $3 million coming off a bounce-back 2021 campaign in which he earned a 69.4 grade was a favorable tradeoff when accounting for value.

 

Above from PFF, if you're into their ratings... we have decent pass blocking grades across the board.

 

[FootballZombie]

I always get a better feeling about rankings when I can see the full picture. Took me a min, but I found an article that laid out the athletics rankings.

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/nfl-quarterback-tiers-examining-mike-sandos-rankings-for-2022

 

Mike Sando's list was constructed mostly from rankings from GMs, head coaches, evaluators, coordinators and execs, so it is a bit of a window into how NFL front offices generally view a guy.

 

1 Rodgers

2 Mahomes

3 Brady

4 Allen

5 Herbert

6 Burrow

7 Stafford

8 Wilson

9 Watson

10 Jackson

11 Prescott

12 Carr

13 Murray

14 Ryan

15 Cousins

16 Jimmy G

17 Tannehill

18 Mac Jones

19 Mayfield

T-20 Wentz

T-20 Hurts

22 Goff

23 Lawrence

24 Winston

25 Fields

26 Tua

and so on

 

Wentz was put into tier 3, which came w/ the description of:

"Tier 3 included quarterbacks who are legitimate starters but need a strong running game and/or defense to compete. A lower-volume drop-back passing offense suits the quarterbacks in this tier best."

 

A lot of this lines up with my personal feelings on the matter, in both rankings and probable playing style.

 

I must also say it warms my heart to see Dak knocked out of the top 10.

Edited July 26, 2022 by FootballZombie

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 hours ago, TheShredder said:

There's some large issues on that OL.

Just assuming it will be as good as the last couple of years would be fanatical hope.

Both Centers are coming of major injuries and are still questionable to when they'll be able to play.

They replaced an All-PRO with Trai Turner who just played his worst season.

60% of the OL is different and less talented.

I don't understand how that makes anyone confident that they'll protect Wentz.

So, I've also been on the "wait and see" train with the OL.  Specifically because of what you mentioned, 2 new guards, and instability at center because of injury.

 

That said, the optimistic point of view is:

 

- Matsko is one of the best OL coaches in the league, and probably the best position coach on the team.

- They kept losing guys last year, and they kept filling guys in and still being productive.

- Turner seems to work around his personnel well, if it looks like the OL is struggling, I actually have faith that he and Matsko will find ways to make sure they have the time to do what they want to do.  (ie: use motions, play action, move the pocket, etc.)

- Both Norwell and Turner were pro-bowl level players for Matsko, essentially in this system.  There shouldn't be any learning curve for them.

- Norwell is 30.  That's a far cry from over-the-hill for Guards.  Plenty play extremely well into their mid to late 30's. He was a first team all-pro.  He's also been languishing in Jax.  So maybe a reunion with Ron and Matsko will rejuvenate him.  

- Trai Turner is 29.  That's even younger.  He was a 5 time probowler under Matsko and this offense, and not that long ago.  

- Rouiller should be ready for the season.  If he's not, there are multiple other options that played and played pretty well last year.

 

I also think they have a lot of depth.  Lucas, Charles, Sweitzer (who might start), Larsen, Ismael, and the rookie Chris Paul, that's a lot of guys who either have played (exception of the rookie) and have not been terrible.  

 

So, all that said, we still don't KNOW what's going to happen.  But in the case of Norwell and Turner, I'm actually glad they brought in a couple of former high-performing Panthers to replace Flowers and Scherff.  There really should be no learning curve.

 

In Matsko I trust, basically.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

Wentz was put into tier 3, which came w/ the description of:

"Tier 3 included quarterbacks who are legitimate starters but need a strong running game and/or defense to compete. A lower-volume drop-back passing offense suits the quarterbacks in this tier best."

 

A lot of this lines up with my personal feelings on the matter, in both rankings and probable playing style.

 

I must also say it warms my heart to see Dak knocked out of the top 10.

I think you could take everybody from Ryan to Hurts and put them in any order you want, and it would be hard to argue.  

 

For example, I would take Cousins over Ryan, and I would put Jimmy G., Tannehill, Mac Jones, and Mayfield at the bottom of that group, and move both Wentz and Hurts up.  

If somebody wanted to argue Ryan over Cousins, or Tannehill over Wentz, ok, fine, I think both are completely fair points of view.  

 

I do find it odd Mayfield is "that high" when he just sat out there for months as an option, and then was traded for a ham sandwich.  If anybody really liked him, they could have traded for him and extended him.  But nobody did.  He's on a one year flier in Carolina, a team that probably wants him as a stop gap to Corral anyway.  He's had one good year in 4, and is coming off of off-season surgery. 

 

I don't have a problem with the tiers, though I think putting a playing style into the tier description is stupid.

 

As for "strong running game" as it applies to Wentz, he had the strongest running game last year, and I think it absolutely broke him. They limited his attempts to the point where he struggled to find rhythm.  If we run back that kind of offense, we will get worse results, because we do not have Jonathan Taylor. Wentz has been at his best when the offense runs through him, and has a complementary running game. 

 

My hope is Turner understands this, and they play to Wentz's strengths, instead of trying to limit his weaknesses.  Because by limiting his weaknesses, they are going to diminish the strengths.  And for all the hand-ringing about left-handed interceptions, and hero-ball, he had 7 interceptions last year, and has only had more than 10 one time in his career, when the Eagles were looking for people to play receiver in the parking lot before games.  

 

The more of the Colts I watch, and I'm slowly making my way through the season, the more I think Reich completely botched the whole thing. It was a bad job of coaching, top to bottom.  Bold Prediction: Reich is fired after the season.  Ballard too. They're going to miss the playoffs and Irsay is going to fire everybody.  

[FootballZombie]

18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think you could take everybody from Ryan to Hurts and put them in any order you want, and it would be hard to argue.  

 

You can always argue people in close slots. If your a space or two separate, that is surely not definitive, A consistent seven slot span is a bit too much tho. You can argue Brady V Rodgers. Nobody is arguing Brady V Jackson. Dude is consistently in the low 20s. I'm not giving him interchangeable status with dudes ranked 14.

 

21 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Bold Prediction: Reich is fired after the season.  Ballard too. They're going to miss the playoffs and Irsay is going to fire everybody.  

 

Pretty sure they both got extensions. In a normal club I'd say the very idea is crazy since they were just extended, but here I'd say this bold prediction is at the mercy of the drugs in Irsay's system.

 

Seriously doubt it happens, but hey, pills can do work on a guy.

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

You can always argue people in close slots. If your a space or two separate, that is surely not definitive, A consistent seven slot span is a bit too much tho. You can argue Brady V Rodgers. Nobody is arguing Brady V Jackson. Dude is consistently in the low 20s. I'm not giving him interchangeable status with dudes ranked 14.

Yeah, I don’t think there’s much separating any of those 7 guys.  Each has strengths, each has weaknesses.  I’d take Wentz over Jimmy G, Mac Jones, Mayfield and maybe Tannehill.  I’d take Cousins over Wentz.

 

For one year, I might take Ryan over Wentz, but for more than one year, I would not because if age.

 

If Wentz has a good season this year, akin to last year or better and the Commanders make the playoffs, he will be ranked somewhere around 12-14 in all these lists next year.  
 

Which is where I think he was at the beginning of the off-season before the Irsay Smear Campaign.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Pretty sure they both got extensions. In a normal club I'd say the very idea is crazy since they were just extended, but here I'd say this bold prediction is at the mercy of the drugs in Irsay's system.

 

Seriously doubt it happens, but hey, pills can do work on a guy

If they don’t make the playoffs this year, and Ryan retires or stinks, it will be something like 8 straight years with a new starting QB.

 

And their window is actually closing.  They’ll be in the market for a QB again.  
 

And, the dirty little secret, Reich might not be that good a coach.  That weak 17 collapse was totally Jay Gruden esqu from 2016. The whole team, not just Wentz, folded and was unprepared.  
 

If they get fired, I think it would be partially due to Irsay being rah, but partially due to not being able to solve the QB question over a pretty bling period of time at this point.  

[NickyJ]

I don't think Reich and Ballard could get fired after this season without a complete meltdown. To do it the season after they trashed Wentz for all their problems would be humiliating. In theory, anyway.

Edited July 26, 2022 by NickyJ

[Califan007 The Constipated]

12 hours ago, Conn said:

“I’m always excited to coach. When you’re in it, you (think), ‘Hey, this is what we got’ and you’re going to make the most of it. That’s my job. You take everything one year at a time”.

 

— Turner, in response to a question referencing “more potential at QB than before”

 

I mean that’s about as large an indictment on Heinicke, from a guy who likes him no less, as you’re going to find. Brutal. 

 

Or it's a reaction to having to scheme for 8 different QBs in 2 years. Let's not think Heinicke was the only QB on the roster that Turner's comment applies to.

[FLSkinz83]

6 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

I always get a better feeling about rankings when I can see the full picture. Took me a min, but I found an article that laid out the athletics rankings.

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/nfl-quarterback-tiers-examining-mike-sandos-rankings-for-2022

 

Mike Sando's list was constructed mostly from rankings from GMs, head coaches, evaluators, coordinators and execs, so it is a bit of a window into how NFL front offices generally view a guy.

 

1 Rodgers

2 Mahomes

3 Brady

4 Allen

5 Herbert

6 Burrow

7 Stafford

8 Wilson

9 Watson

10 Jackson

11 Prescott

12 Carr

13 Murray

14 Ryan

15 Cousins

16 Jimmy G

17 Tannehill

18 Mac Jones

19 Mayfield

T-20 Wentz

T-20 Hurts

22 Goff

23 Lawrence

24 Winston

25 Fields

26 Tua

and so on

 

Wentz was put into tier 3, which came w/ the description of:

"Tier 3 included quarterbacks who are legitimate starters but need a strong running game and/or defense to compete. A lower-volume drop-back passing offense suits the quarterbacks in this tier best."

 

A lot of this lines up with my personal feelings on the matter, in both rankings and probable playing style.

 

I must also say it warms my heart to see Dak knocked out of the top 10.

 

I'd put him 14th.    I like him more than Ryan, Kurt, Jimmy G, Tannehill, Jones and Mayfield.

[goskins10]

34 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

I don't think Reich and Ballard could get fired after this season without a complete meltdown. To do it the season after they trashed Wentz for all their problems would be humiliating. In theory, anyway.

 

 

They absolutely can get fired after this year. He gave them an extension so they are not lame ducks or at least appearing to be lame ducks. He has given them everything HE thinks they need to succeed. If they miss the POs or even if they scrap in and get bumped the 1st rd, he will clean house. 

 

What's going to be funny is when they lose to Jacksonville on the road - again!  That will be what 7 times in a row! 

 

Not addressed to you, just a launching point: 

 

Anyone without a rooting interest who watched the Jacksonville game saw that yes Carson **** the bed, but the entire team also **** the bed. The oline was a joke. Jk took away the run game (18 rushes vs 29 pass att) and with no time and no WRs Wentz made mistakes, stupid ones I will grant you. But he was one of the few on the field trying to win that game. 

 

Maybe Matt Ryan is the answer. He is likely to be more consistent in terms of yards but will he get them in the EZ? All those underneath's may add yards and be good some of the time but you have to score. Those will not get you TDs. And the Colts had defensive lapses too. They are a good defense most of the time but they are subject to loss of concentration at key points of games. That is coaching. 

 

I am in no way absolving Carson of thier meltdown. But I do think Scott Turner has an offense that fits Carson's game better. He also has much better tools around him. But just like the Colts coaching staff, no more excuses. Carson has to produce or it will not be a long relationship in Washington. 

[goskins10]

13 hours ago, Conn said:

“I’m always excited to coach. When you’re in it, you (think), ‘Hey, this is what we got’ and you’re going to make the most of it. That’s my job. You take everything one year at a time”.

 

— Turner, in response to a question referencing “more potential at QB than before”

 

I mean that’s about as large an indictment on Heinicke, from a guy who likes him no less, as you’re going to find. Brutal. 

 

 

I do not see that as an indictment on Taylor at all. Everyone knows he is a backup. So you went from a solid backup who knows your system, and add a stating QB and high potential prospect. That makes your room much better. No slight to Taylor. I see that more as feeling good about who you added not trashing who is/was there. 

 

 

[HigSkin]

 

[goskins10]

7 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

I always get a better feeling about rankings when I can see the full picture. Took me a min, but I found an article that laid out the athletics rankings.

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/nfl-quarterback-tiers-examining-mike-sandos-rankings-for-2022

 

Mike Sando's list was constructed mostly from rankings from GMs, head coaches, evaluators, coordinators and execs, so it is a bit of a window into how NFL front offices generally view a guy.

 

1 Rodgers

2 Mahomes

3 Brady

4 Allen

5 Herbert

6 Burrow

7 Stafford

8 Wilson

9 Watson

10 Jackson

11 Prescott

12 Carr

13 Murray

14 Ryan

15 Cousins

16 Jimmy G

17 Tannehill

18 Mac Jones

19 Mayfield

T-20 Wentz

T-20 Hurts

22 Goff

23 Lawrence

24 Winston

25 Fields

26 Tua

and so on

 

Wentz was put into tier 3, which came w/ the description of:

"Tier 3 included quarterbacks who are legitimate starters but need a strong running game and/or defense to compete. A lower-volume drop-back passing offense suits the quarterbacks in this tier best."

 

A lot of this lines up with my personal feelings on the matter, in both rankings and probable playing style.

 

I must also say it warms my heart to see Dak knocked out of the top 10.

 

 

This is the low end of the range I have him in, at least right now. While I think they exaggerate thier reasons and provide more hyperbole than substance. the placement on the list is not unfair. You could probably make an argument for him over the 4 immediately in front of him. Once you get to Cousins he is not there right now. The potential is there but right now it's just potential. Based on actual performance you can't really put him much higher than 15 or 16. So 20 is fair. 

 

Agree on Dak. He did not look good after he came back the second time last year. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

2 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

not relevant to the tweet at all, but for some reason this is the tweet that showed up when I saw your post. That’s odd….

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

 

 

The flip side is, at least Kyler's bad game was against a playoff-level team, as where Wentz' was against the worst team in the league lol...

[RawRebel]

7 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

I always get a better feeling about rankings when I can see the full picture. Took me a min, but I found an article that laid out the athletics rankings.

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/nfl-quarterback-tiers-examining-mike-sandos-rankings-for-2022

 

Mike Sando's list was constructed mostly from rankings from GMs, head coaches, evaluators, coordinators and execs, so it is a bit of a window into how NFL front offices generally view a guy.

 

1 Rodgers

2 Mahomes

3 Brady

4 Allen

5 Herbert

6 Burrow

7 Stafford

8 Wilson

9 Watson

10 Jackson

11 Prescott

12 Carr

13 Murray

14 Ryan

15 Cousins

16 Jimmy G

17 Tannehill

18 Mac Jones

19 Mayfield

T-20 Wentz

T-20 Hurts

22 Goff

23 Lawrence

24 Winston

25 Fields

26 Tua

and so on

 

Wentz was put into tier 3, which came w/ the description of:

"Tier 3 included quarterbacks who are legitimate starters but need a strong running game and/or defense to compete. A lower-volume drop-back passing offense suits the quarterbacks in this tier best."

 

A lot of this lines up with my personal feelings on the matter, in both rankings and probable playing style.

 

I must also say it warms my heart to see Dak knocked out of the top 10.

I would have Wentz at 16 or 15 plus why is Matt Ryan rated so high? He has been getting increasingly worst the last couple of years and was extremely bad last season?

[samy316]

11 minutes ago, RawRebel said:

I would have Wentz at 16 or 15 plus why is Matt Ryan rated so high? He has been getting increasingly worst the last couple of years and was extremely bad last season?

 

Wentz should be no higher than 18.  He gets no benefit of the doubt for why he's ranked the way he is.  He has the talent to be a top 13 QB, but his perception right now in the eyes of the media and fans is someone that's lucky to be a Top 20 QB.  This season will either confirm the media's opinion of him, or redeem him.  This is also his last shot as a starting QB in the league.  With his Q rating in the gutter, he better not flop here in DC.  If he flops here, then he's done as a starting QB.  He'll strictly be a backup QB going forward.

Edited July 26, 2022 by samy316

[HigSkin]

1 hour ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

The flip side is, at least Kyler's bad game was against a playoff-level team, as where Wentz' was against the worst team in the league lol...

 

On the flip, flip side the Colts haven't beaten the Jags at home since 2014.  🙂

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/indianapolis-colts/post/_/id/27100/indianapolis-colts-playoff-hopes-ride-on-snapping-road-losing-streak-to-jacksonville-jaguars

 

The Colts have not beaten the Jaguars in Jacksonville – or London – since 2014.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

8 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

On the flip, flip side the Colts haven't beaten the Jags at home since 2014.  🙂

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/indianapolis-colts/post/_/id/27100/indianapolis-colts-playoff-hopes-ride-on-snapping-road-losing-streak-to-jacksonville-jaguars

 

The Colts have not beaten the Jaguars in Jacksonville – or London – since 2014.

 

 

On the flip-flip-flip side (lol), we weren't talking about wins and losses...we were talking about comparing bad games by Wentz and Kyler.

 

For the record, the only Colts QB to have as bad a game against the Jags at home as Wentz was Jacoby Brissett...that's not good company to keep lol.