The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Mrshadow008]

4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

For a long time, Norv's offense was famous for having the Center call the protections and line blocking, and no audibles. 

 

The premise was (and I heard this FROM Norv in an interview he did when he was Cowboys OC, before he even came here, he was on SportsCenter or something) each play was designed to work against just about every defense, and if the QB read the play correctly, there was really no need to audible.  I thought that sounded really pompous, then Troy came on and said it was a blessing because all he had to do was run the play and not worry about anything else.  And, hell, that guy's in the HOF (and at the time was probably already a multiple SB winner), so what do I know. 

 

Aikman called it a "QB Friendly System" because once you figured it out, you just had to "run it."  There wasn't a lot of thinking.  And by taking the line calls off the QB's pre-snap plate, it allowed him to focus entirely on the route concepts and secondary.  

 

Norv might be the best pure OC of the last 30 years.  If not the best, in the top 3 for sure.  You could argue he should go to the HOF as an OC.  

 

Now, I'm sure things have changed since I heard that interview in probably 1993 or 1994, but I think a lot of the same premises exist.  The offense is predicated on making the right reads within the play rather than checking out of a play into another "better" play.  I'm sure, though, with evolution, there is some "check with me" stuff, read option, etc.

 

But I think the building blocks are basically still the same, at least from what I understand.

 

Which is why it's tough to pick up, in a way.  If you're not checking into an "easier" play, you've got to read the play out.  Every play is designed to get somebody open, you've just got to find the somebody.  

 

When it works, it's basically unstoppable.  If you have a QB that can't find the "right" read, you either get a ton of check downs, or a lot of INTs.

 

EDIT: I just remembered, when Norv got here, he received some criticism for not having audibles in the offense.  Like "If you know they are blitzing, why can't the QB check out of the play?"

 

And in typical Norv fashion, he basically mumbled something incoherent and that was that.  

 

Then Brad Johnson showed up, the first real, true QB he had in Washington (minus maybe a few games of a very young Trent Green), and magically, the "No Audibles" criticism went away.  Why?  Because a good QB can read the play out and run the offense, and it's not an issue.  Bad QBs can't.

So, the end of the lesson (which is obvious) is that it's better to have a good QB.  

So during our Session with Zampese we went through three plays. And based off your description here of Norv I would say the apple doesnt fall far from the tree with Scott. The way each play and route was described almost exactly as its described here. Basically if the play has 5 routes in it (3 wr, te, rb) each one of those routes is designed to beat a specific type of defense. You could run the exact same play 5 times in a row and your number 1 read could be different all five times. Your progressions change on a case by case basis. based on things like how close the linebacker or safety are to line of scrimmage. Or whether the corners are playing press or 3,5 or 10 yards off the ball.

The crazy thing is this though. Zampese spent about 30 mins on each of these three concepts with us. He showed us a bunch of examples of these concepts in action and how the reads would change based off the defense. Then when he was done explained these were day one installs that they basically spend about a minute and a half on. But in short as you reference Norv saying the audibles are already built into the plays being called. 

[Conn]

Howell hypothetically winning the backup spot would in no way at all invalidate what Rivera told Wentz about being committed to him. That’s silly. He’s in the same QB room as those guys every day and on the field throwing next to them every day. If Howell actually does progress to be a better option at #2 than Heinicke, they aren’t going to hold him back and invalidate the idea that on this team the cream can rise to the top. He was still just a 5th round pick, being better than freaking Taylor Heinicke a little earlier than expected doesn’t threaten Wentz or make Rivera a liar at all. 

[Est.1974]

4 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

The only problem with that is Ron told Wentz on draft day he is selecting a QB as a project. TH is here until end of 22. He will be the #2. 

You may be right, I won’t lose sleep over it either way. Personally I just think it ‘should’ be Howell as that represents a more forward thinking approach. Ron does like to approach everything with ‘an abundance of caution’ though so it’s may well be a safer move to keep TH at #2. 

[Koolblue13]

5 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Howell has to be #2 first to lose in a playoff game.

 

Are we really that butt hurt about TH that we rather see a rookie QB be named #2 because that means TH won't be #2. Does the team come first or the fan's feelings are more important now?

 

I highly doubt Howell will know Turner's offense like TH does. The edge here goes to TH. 

The best thing for the team, is our QB having a high ceiling. A ceiling so high that Heinicke couldn't hit it with a football, or higher, because we know his ceiling and its low.

5 hours ago, Mrshadow008 said:

So during our Session with Zampese we went through three plays. And based off your description here of Norv I would say the apple doesnt fall far from the tree with Scott. The way each play and route was described almost exactly as its described here. Basically if the play has 5 routes in it (3 wr, te, rb) each one of those routes is designed to beat a specific type of defense. You could run the exact same play 5 times in a row and your number 1 read could be different all five times. Your progressions change on a case by case basis. based on things like how close the linebacker or safety are to line of scrimmage. Or whether the corners are playing press or 3,5 or 10 yards off the ball.

The crazy thing is this though. Zampese spent about 30 mins on each of these three concepts with us. He showed us a bunch of examples of these concepts in action and how the reads would change based off the defense. Then when he was done explained these were day one installs that they basically spend about a minute and a half on. But in short as you reference Norv saying the audibles are already built into the plays being called. 

Reminds me of the Madden football life episode. Said he saw Lombardi talk and he dissected a running play for 8 straight hours. One play. 

[IrepDC]

We're having a backup QB battle controversy? 

[KDawg]

Putting aside my fun schtick… the idea that the offense will be more effective with a strong armed QB like Wentz transfers to the backup spot as well. Howell has a pedigree, made chicken salad from chicken **** last season, is battle tested, seems well liked and has a rocket. He checks every box. There’s a reason he was my QB1 this previous draft.

 

He has to earn that spot over Heinicke, for sure. But I think it’s a matter of time rather than “if”

[Thinking Skins]

14 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think we’re going to see a lot of Howell in preseason.

 

I wonder if Ron has the guts to do to TH what Shanahan did to Grossman.  Grossman started essentially the entire 2011 season, he had worked with Kyle before in Houston.  Similar to TH and Turner. 
 

But he was beat out in camp by Cousins for the backup job and Mike didn’t hesitate to make Cousins the backup. And it’s the first time I ever remember a rookie backing up a rookie. 
 

We’re miles away from it, but I kindof wonder if Ron would be willing to bump Howell up under almost any circumstance. 
 

I hope he would.  I hope there is a legitimate competition and let the best man win.  But I think TH might be like Ron and Scott’s binky.  Because he knows the offense he might make them more comfortable. 

I brrought this scenario up on Twitter but the one difference between the two is that I think Heinicke played MUCH better than Grossman in his year as the starter. 2011 wasn't all Grossman, it was Grossman and Beck. And Beck played because Grossman wasn't playing well. Heinicke/Allen/Gman was 2021, but Allen and Gman played only because of injury/COVID. So I can see Grossman losing his job because of performance whereas Heinicke wouldn't be. 

 

Thing is, Yeah, Heinicke played 16 games last year and proved doubters wrong, the there is still a question of how durable he is. I think his play dropped off when he started trying to stay healthy instead of running around playing his hero ball. We'll see but I wouldn't expect it. Right now Wentz is the guy and I just hope he can lead us to 13 wins. 

[Skinsinparadise]

44 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Putting aside my fun schtick… the idea that the offense will be more effective with a strong armed QB like Wentz transfers to the backup spot as well. Howell has a pedigree, made chicken salad from chicken **** last season, is battle tested, seems well liked and has a rocket. He checks every box. There’s a reason he was my QB1 this previous draft.

 

He has to earn that spot over Heinicke, for sure. But I think it’s a matter of time rather than “if”

 

The 5th round was fun for me because they took both guys I wanted bad once we got there and that was Howell and Cole Turner.  Howell I was shocked was still there in the 5th, I pushed him to death in the 4th.  Cole I thought even though I liked him, and he made "my guys" list that we listed before the draft, could fall further down the draft but once the run on TEs happened it was clear they had to take him earlier.

 

I was more of a Corral guy than Howell as you know but in our final rankings I put Corral just a spot ahead of Howell so it was a toss up for me.  I spent a lot of time on these Qbs, as you did.  You liked Howell and @Koolblue13 more than I did but I wasn't too far behind.  The thing that hit me that I liked the best about Howell and said so at the time, among these QBs, Howell made the most wicked throws.  Deep out, go routes-9, and put really nice touch on those throws. 

 

He seems to have high intangibles-work ethic.  He had a high Wonderlic score -- Corral bombing his Wonderlic turned me off him a little.  Digesting his personality he comes off a bit weird but not in a bad way and not the most outgoing dude so from that standpoint he's not the most rally the troops type even though he loves to bill himself a leader.  That's OK neither is someone like Justin Herbert.

 

Listening and reading different things about the draft about Howell -- seems like the main narrative why he dropped is the 6 foot and lower QB has not aged well in the NFL among those that aren't uber mobile so some doubts about him because of his size.  Seeing over the O line, etc.  He did run a lot in college but didn't look that fast doing it and didn't run predraft to dispel any concerns about it.  But as I mentioned here the other day, he looks thin right now.  He looked a bit chunky in college.  I wonder if that adds to his speed? 

 

One of the reasons why I pushed Howell hard at some point during draft day was as I said the entertainment value of seing you debate the Heinicke Hive. 😀  But yeah as a pure talent Howell easily > Heinicke IMO.   

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

[Skinsinparadise]

The idea that Wentz doesn't have pinpoint accuracy seems to be a theme from minicamp and running through camp so far.  Seems like the rap is he throws a bit high.  the rap on him coming here is he prefers tall targets.  Similar in that way to Fitz.    The receiving crew isn't tall.  But I can see Cole Turner being a good target for him --- tall, great hands, great catch radius.  

 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

I'd imagine the high passes will settle down as the season goes on and he learns to trust the WRs more. Terry is always open and it sounds like Dot is too, so when Wentz gets more comfortable with trusting that, his accuracy should improve. 

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

The best thing for the team, is our QB having a high ceiling. A ceiling so high that Heinicke couldn't hit it with a football, or higher, because we know his ceiling and its low.

 

That is all fine and dandy in your mind but in the real world TH at #2 is the safe bet right now. 

 

1 hour ago, IrepDC said:

We're having a backup QB battle controversy? 

 

It is the offseason. Just be glad we are not debating who the water boy going to be.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'd imagine the high passes will settle down as the season goes on and he learns to trust the WRs more. Terry is always open and it sounds like Dot is too, so when Wentz gets more comfortable with trusting that, his accuracy should improve. 

 

If he is over throwing then It is not about trusting his WRs. It is about him pulling his throws back since he has a stronger arm. That is how he will improve his accuracy in that area. 

[Koolblue13]

26 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

That is all fine and dandy in your mind but in the real world TH at #2 is the safe bet right now. 

 

 

It is the offseason. Just be glad we are not debating who the water boy going to be.

 

 

 

If he is over throwing then It is not about trusting his WRs. It is about him pulling his throws back since he has a stronger arm. That is how he will improve his accuracy in that area. 

I thought you weren't allowed to turn this thread into the Heini defense thread anymore. 

 

Saying the rookie QB we just drafted beating out the career back up, wouldn't be beneficial to the team is buffalo squat.

 

Does he? Idk, but I hope so. Makes the team better.

[Skinsinparadise]

No doubt Howell playing well and beating Heinicke for the job would be good for this team.  Heinicke isn't the future. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

That doesn't bode well for the Steelers if so but I do like that Rudolph grew up a big fan of this team. 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Move No Steak Sammy on up that depth chart and let's see how he does with the 2s.

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

No doubt Howell playing well and beating Heinicke for the job would be good for this team.  Heinicke isn't the future. 

 

It will all depend on how fast and how well Howell picks up Turner's offense. But after this year, if Wentz is still here then Howell is your #2. Taylor #3 if they decide to keep him again.

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I thought you weren't allowed to turn this thread into the Heini defense thread anymore. 

 

Saying the rookie QB we just drafted beating out the career back up, wouldn't be beneficial to the team is buffalo squat.

 

Does he? Idk, but I hope so. Makes the team better.

 

Apparently it is defensive to you. I am looking from practical point of view.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Ain’t nothing about your point of view in this thread practical! Go on outside with that mess! 😆

15 minutes ago, zCommander said:

I am looking from practical point of view.

 

[Est.1974]

Looking at QB depth charts around the league, and the general lack of quality behind many starters, I could see a team throwing us a day 3 pick for TH after Howell as won the #2 spot from him. One to watch around the time final rosters are pulled together IMO.

 

TH is a solid backup, chances are we’ll have one of those in Howell now.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[mhd24]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

SIP, any tweets about Cole Kelley?

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

SIP, any tweets about Cole Kelley?

Nothing I caught today 

 

 

[mhd24]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Nothing I caught today 

 

 

Cool, thanks.  I figure Kelley is destined for the practice squad.

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Ain’t nothing about your point of view in this thread practical! Go on outside with that mess! 😆

 

 

Until Ron says it otherwise. Are we no longer allowed to have an opinion in this thread?

 

Your view is not the holy grill 😂