The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I remember it as VOR (maybe it was someone else though?) saying Terry had to contort himself to try to make the catch, and you posting the video to show otherwise.

 

man I can’t wait for the season to start

That's exactly what happened.  I said Terry wasn't going to be clamoring for TH since his off-target, late dying duck deep passes put him in the blue tent three times, and Terry had to do all kinds of acrobatics to catch the balls.  

 

@zCommander retorted with this video with the line "I didn't see any acrobatics" or something similar.  And the concussion was caused by "gravity."

 

Which is why I decided to do a little film education study, to show that pass totally left McLaurin out to dry.

 

My point still holds, I don't think McLaurin or any of the WRs are going to be clamoring for TH because he just can't do what needs to be done.  

 

I think this was all in response to Thom Lovero (aka Squeaky) saying he thought the locker room "loved" TH and were going to clamor for him to play by mid-season.  

 

There's your history lesson.  

 

I'm going to leave the TH stuff here.  I'm sure Z is going to come back with some other excuse, I'm not going to respond to it to hopefully shut the conversation off for a few days.  

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

That's exactly what happened.  I said Terry wasn't going to be clamoring for TH since his off-target, late dying duck deep passes put him in the blue tent three times, and Terry had to do all kinds of acrobatics to catch the balls.  

 

@zCommander retorted with this video with the line "I didn't see any acrobatics" or something similar.  And the concussion was caused by "gravity."

 

Which is why I decided to do a little film education study, to show that pass totally left McLaurin out to dry.

 

My point still holds, I don't think McLaurin or any of the WRs are going to be clamoring for TH because he just can't do what needs to be done.  

 

I think this was all in response to Thom Lovero (aka Squeaky) saying he thought the locker room "loved" TH and were going to clamor for him to play by mid-season.  

 

There's your history lesson.  

 

I'm going to leave the TH stuff here.  I'm sure Z is going to come back with some other excuse, I'm not going to respond to it to hopefully shut the conversation off for a few days.  

 

I didn't remember which play either (someone was wondering which play as well) and looked it up and it was the commentator on that video who said the gravity caused the concussion and typed that out. I really didn't care who threw the football but it was to just say he had 1 concussions. Point was that even though he might have gone to the tent 3 times. 3 trips to tent doesn't equal 3 concussions. 

 

I was doing a community service by posting that video.

Now history lesson complete

 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by zCommander

[mistertim]

Blaming gravity for that concussion is sort of like blaming Newton's laws of motion for a bullet hitting someone, instead of the guy who pulled the trigger.

[Conn]

25 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Blaming gravity for that concussion is sort of like blaming Newton's laws of motion for a bullet hitting someone, instead of the guy who pulled the trigger.

“And he’d still be alive too, if force didn’t equal mass times acceleration 😔 “

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, Conn said:

“And he’d still be alive too, if force didn’t equal mass times acceleration 😔 “

I hate you for bringing back HS Physics flashbacks with one of the worst teachers I've ever had in my entire life.

 

Screw you.

 

 

[mistertim]

I think the Commanders need to seriously consider parting ways with gravity. It hasn't lived up to its draft position and is going to be asking for a huge contract soon, given how much evolution and thermodynamics recently signed for.

Edited July 25, 2022 by mistertim

[zCommander]

41 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Blaming gravity for that concussion is sort of like blaming Newton's laws of motion for a bullet hitting someone, instead of the guy who pulled the trigger.

 

As the first law of motion dictates by Newton: Object in motion tends to stay in motion. Now of course the motion can be changed if one is able to divert the force to something else and at that point it becomes Newtons 3rd law of motion. 

 

 

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

As the first law of motion dictates by Newton: Object in motion tends to stay in motion. Now of course the motion can be changed if one is able to divert the force to something else and at that point it becomes Newtons 3rd law of motion. 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

I didn't remember which play either (someone was wondering which play as well) and looked it up and it was the commentator on that video who said the gravity caused the concussion and typed that out. I really didn't care who threw the football but it was to just say he had 1 concussions. Point was that even though he might have gone to the tent 3 times. 3 trips to tent doesn't equal 3 concussions. 

 

I was doing a community service by posting that video.

Now history lesson complete

 

 

Ok, I said I wouldn't respond, but this is exactly what a number of us were advising you of.  Nobody was wondering which play caused what.  I said Terry went to the blue tent 3 times.  You posted "FACT CHECK" he only got one concussion.  Which is fine, I never said he had 3 concussions, just that he was evaluated for all three.  You also said it was due to Gravity.  It's in your post.  I went back and looked. 

 

Nobody was asking about the play.  You did that on your own.  You felt like you had a way to defend TH, with whatever the announcer said, and you even told me that McLaurin wasn't making some contortionist type move like I had suggested.  Fine.  

 

Then you posted the video.  

 

Which showed that regardless of what the announcer said, gravity did not cause the concussion. Well, I guess it did have a hand in it, as after the pass was late and the defender literally ran under Terry, he fell on his head.  Absent gravity, he wouldn't have fallen down.

 

However, absent the throw being late and high, he wouldn't have had to jump, and he wouldn't have had a defender underneath him.

 

Look, you did this to yourself.  Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, was wondering about the validity of the 1 concussion vs. 3 visits to the tent, and nobody, and I mean nobody, cared which play it was.  I went back through and looked.  It was a conversation between you, me and @Califan007 The Constipated.  

 

I wouldn't try and pass it off as "others were curious."  Or "just confirming he had one concussion."  Or "this is the only play which resulted in a concussion."

 

You were trying to say his concussion wasn't TH's fault, that was the intent of posting the video and saying "it was caused by Gravity."  

 

If you want to post it, I have no problem with that.  It actually allowed us to see a play and diagnose it specifically, which I actually appreciated.  So, good on you for that. 

 

However, don't try and play it off as your intent wasn't to try and counter my point that TH put McLaurin in the blue tent 3 times, because that's exactly what you were trying to do.  That's a fair point if you want to try and discuss it. (you're wrong, but that never stopped anybody from arguing a side...) But don't back off of the intent in the end and claim it was just to clarify facts and the QB who threw it wasn't important. 

 

You really are such a good contributor on every other subject.  We all have our weaknesses.  Mine was Jay.  I got scolded for that.  And I gave it a rest.  (Even though history proved me right.   ) Now I can say "told you so."  Though I really try to hold that in check and not gloat. At least a little bit.  Eh, on second thought, maybe not so much.   

 

Maybe when somebody makes a TH jab, just let it go for a while?  If it turns out we are all wrong, you can say "I told you so" and we'll have to eat it.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

14 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 It was a conversation between you and me, and then @Califan007 The Constipated had to butt in.

 

 

 

Hey!! 🤬

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

[zCommander]

49 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Ok, I said I wouldn't respond, but this is exactly what a number of us were advising you of.  Nobody was wondering which play caused what.  I said Terry went to the blue tent 3 times.  You posted "FACT CHECK" he only got one concussion.  Which is fine, I never said he had 3 concussions, just that he was evaluated for all three.  You also said it was due to Gravity.  It's in your post.  I went back and looked. 

 

Nobody was asking about the play.  You did that on your own.  You felt like you had a way to defend TH, with whatever the announcer said, and you even told me that McLaurin wasn't making some contortionist type move like I had suggested.  Fine.  

 

Then you posted the video.  

 

Which showed that regardless of what the announcer said, gravity did not cause the concussion. Well, I guess it did have a hand in it, as after the pass was late and the defender literally ran under Terry, he fell on his head.  Absent gravity, he wouldn't have fallen down.

 

However, absent the throw being late and high, he wouldn't have had to jump, and he wouldn't have had a defender underneath him.

 

Look, you did this to yourself.  Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, was wondering about the validity of the 1 concussion vs. 3 visits to the tent, and nobody, and I mean nobody, cared which play it was.  I went back through and looked.  It was a conversation between you, me and @Califan007 The Constipated.  

 

I wouldn't try and pass it off as "others were curious."  Or "just confirming he had one concussion."  Or "this is the only play which resulted in a concussion."

 

You were trying to say his concussion wasn't TH's fault, that was the intent of posting the video and saying "it was caused by Gravity."  

 

If you want to post it, I have no problem with that.  It actually allowed us to see a play and diagnose it specifically, which I actually appreciated.  So, good on you for that. 

 

However, don't try and play it off as your intent wasn't to try and counter my point that TH put McLaurin in the blue tent 3 times, because that's exactly what you were trying to do.  That's a fair point if you want to try and discuss it. (you're wrong, but that never stopped anybody from arguing a side...) But don't back off of the intent in the end and claim it was just to clarify facts and the QB who threw it wasn't important. 

 

You really are such a good contributor on every other subject.  We all have our weaknesses.  Mine was Jay.  I got scolded for that.  And I gave it a rest.  (Even though history proved me right.   ) Now I can say "told you so."  Though I really try to hold that in check and not gloat. At least a little bit.  Eh, on second thought, maybe not so much.   

 

Maybe when somebody makes a TH jab, just let it go for a while?  If it turns out we are all wrong, you can say "I told you so" and we'll have to eat it.  

 

I had to go back too because I remember BatteredFanSyndrom saying he doesn't remember which play it was and I said see the video posted above. So I stand corrected since it happened on the same page and only a few posts after my video post. 

 

The video was to your response saying "the contortion Terry had to do". In which I said I don't see what you are seeing and then you proceeded to talk about TH and the like. You also proceeded to say that I put up the video to absolve TH. Clearly I can't talk about the ending of a play that I see differently because it was thrown by TH. My clear intent was just to say 1 concussions and not 3. Trips to blue tent is a something they do to make sure the player is okay. Safety first. I understand that on 3 plays Terry went to the tent but only on 1 play where he landed on his head instead caused the concussion. It was that simple for me. No one asked me to look anything up. I was curious too. 

 

The commentator said it was caused by gravity and I just regurgitated what he said. 

 

Unfortunate by product of me posting that video was that you thought I was trying to absolve TH. That was further from my mind then it was yours. Let's just move on. 

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

As the first law of motion dictates by Newton: Object in motion tends to stay in motion. Now of course the motion can be changed if one is able to divert the force to something else and at that point it becomes Newtons 3rd law of motion. 

 

 

If that pass was dictated by Newton, TMac wouldn't have gotten batman'd by the turf.

[NickyJ]

Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest SOB in the NFL, second only to Taylor Heinicke and his lame ducks.

Edited July 25, 2022 by NickyJ

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

4 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

 

Yup. We know how he operates, trying to reinvent someone and get a cat to act like a dog or a dog to act like a llama (weird analogies but you get it) is just too difficult.

 

Best to load up on weapons to let Wentz's style have a better chance of those hero complex moments working.

[TheShredder]

When @Voice_of_Reasonand @zCommanderused to be roommates.

[zCommander]

28 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Best to load up on weapons to let Wentz's style have a better chance of those hero complex moments working.

 

As long as he doesn't do this...

 

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

@zCommander YIKES…if he does that, I just might need 5 shots 😂

[TheShredder]

2 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

@zCommander YIKES…if he does that, I just might need 5 shots 😂

First words to Wentz from Turner 'Here we only throw passes with our dominate hand.'

Wentz =GULP=

Turner 'Should you chose otherwise, the only passing you'll be doing is the H2O.'

[Thinking Skins]

6 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

I don't know who it was, maybe Don Warren. It definitely wasn't Sheehan but somebody was talking about how much pressure Wentz was facing almost immediately after the snap with the Colts. We can talk about how Turner designed his system to have the QBs throw the ball quickly so it makes our lines look better but Last year and 2020 Wentz had no time. I remember game 1 2020 thinking about how bad we do against him then we went and sacked him 8 times. It went on to be his worse year and only bad year as a QB. 

 

Part of me is thinking about this whole league hates Snyder thing and wondering if that has something to do with this. Like other owners and the media don't want to help Snyder sell tickets so they are running with these stories because it hurts him more. 

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

I don't know who it was, maybe Don Warren. It definitely wasn't Sheehan but somebody was talking about how much pressure Wentz was facing almost immediately after the snap with the Colts. We can talk about how Turner designed his system to have the QBs throw the ball quickly so it makes our lines look better but Last year and 2020 Wentz had no time. I remember game 1 2020 thinking about how bad we do against him then we went and sacked him 8 times. It went on to be his worse year and only bad year as a QB. 

 

Part of me is thinking about this whole league hates Snyder thing and wondering if that has something to do with this. Like other owners and the media don't want to help Snyder sell tickets so they are running with these stories because it hurts him more. 

 

Our overall offense was 6 spots better than Cotls last year. But, however the Colts were ranked 30th in pass protection. The point you made is valid indeed. So this year they should be able to allow Wentz to do more after the snap. Our offense has been #6 for the last two years. 

 

I highly doubt rest of the league has some sort of a vendetta against Dan. Maybe some might not like him because the mud and shame he brings to the table. The owners actually want the Commanders to do well so they can share the revenue generated by ticket sales. 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by zCommander

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

As long as he doesn't do this...

 

 

 

Believe it or not, Wentz probably did nothing wrong there. That said, Wentz should be raked over the coals for his interception in Overtime of that game. That later Int is a clear example of "not taking the layups and forcing something". But the first interception in the video you linked, is not Wentz's fault.

 

A lot to unpack here. It took awhile to figure out the playcall, but I think I've done it. It's a colossally stupid playcall. It's the last drive of the game, 90 seconds left, only 2 timeouts, and backed up to your own 8 yard line.

 

So what do the Colts do? They try and get cute. It's a long developing play. Fake screen to the TE on the strong side to lure the LB's over there, then flip your hips all the way around to hit the RB on the weakside for a hopefully big YAC play. Why do I say this?

- The LG and RT leak out to block for a screen to the strongside.

- The TE is clearly not the target of an actual screen play as he legitimately engages and clamps down the strongside Edge, but he "fakes the screen" by disengaging and turning around.

- If this was a TE screen to the strongside, then the RB should have helped the pulling RG stop the unblocked weakside Edge defender. He doesn't.

- It's not a strongside screen for the RB either as  he goes weakside. That also doesn't make sense as it's a fake handoff from shotgun with only 90 seconds left and the alignment of the RB would take him to the weakside to sell the handoff regardless. So it's a not a RB screen to the strongside, it's a fake TE screen with a quick pitch to the RB to the weakside.

 

Who Does OK:

- The LG is also going out to screen block, but first he has to quick double with the reaching LT so the LT can connect on the DT. That works fine.

- The TE engages well with the strongside Edge defender. Edge backs off to fill a passing lane when his rush stalls, so the TE flips around for the "fake screen". That works fine.

 

Failed:

- The Center, Kelly, gets help with a quick double but the second it disappears (so the RT could start blocking for a screen) he fails immediately and gets in the QB's face.

- The RG is pulling to cut block the initially unblocked weakside Edge defender. He doesn't get much of the defender and he gets in the QB's face too.

- The RB who fakes the handoff tries to sidestep the defender to be the passing target on the weakside of the formation. But he doesn't sidestep enough and gets taken to the ground.

- The playcalling, I seriously do not get the justification for such a long developing play with those moving parts when you know the defense should be thinking pass only.

- The play design. Don't fake the handoff, don't pretend you're running the ball. Even if the RB didn't fall and caught it, there's a LB mirroring him the whole time because of the fake hand off. Play's dead unless the LB whiffs the tackle.

 

What could Wentz do?

- Well, he wasn't supposed to throw the pass into the dirt at the TE's feet, cause it was a fake. His back is turned to the RB so he had no way of knowing the RB fell.

- Not sure what his key is to start the fake to the TE, but he appears to start it as soon as the OL disengage and go downfield to block for the fake screen. He appears to be reading when that happens, so he's not looking at the other OL fail their blocks or the RB falling to the ground.

- Instead of continuing the fake to the TE, maybe he could have peaked to see if early pressure was there and then spun backwards to the weakside? But he can't miss the key for starting the fake, as he has to fake it then hit the RB before the LG and RT get over 5 yards down field or it's a penalty.

- He can't take a sack, because that ends the game. Safety gives the Titans 2 points plus possession, and the Titans could just kneel it out.

Possible ways it could have still worked:

- If the RB had not fallen, maybe the quick pitch could have still worked despite the RG and C failing.

- If the RG and C had not failed but the RB still fell down, that would have given Wentz enough time to throw it away. I want to see All-22, because the WR's look like they're running Go routes at 75% speed just to "clear the area" for the RB. I doubt any of the WR's were trying to get open.

- If that awkward lob went incomplete, it's 2nd and 10, they live to try again.

 

Actual outcome of that play?

Surprisingly, not much. Colts then drove down the field, scored a touchdown, tied it up for Overtime. Colts get the ball for the 1st drive of OT. Then refs swallowed their whistle on a pass interference call that would have given them FG range, they instead punt. Titans offense did nothing and punts. Wentz then threw an egregious interception on the 3rd drive of OT.

 

I remember seeing that play you linked a lot as a Wentz "lol" during the season, but they really should have focused instead on the Overtime interception for the Wentz "lol".

[Skinsinparadise]

NFL executives ranked the QBs for the Athletic, Wentz #20

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Believe it or not, Wentz probably did nothing wrong there. That said, Wentz should be raked over the coals for his interception in Overtime of that game. That later Int is a clear example of "not taking the layups and forcing something". But the first interception in the video you linked, is not Wentz's fault.

I was coming here to post almost an identical thing.  

 

Thank you good sir for saving me the time and trouble. 

 

EDIT: I'm not sure the fake to the TE was actually anything other than an "oh crap I need to do something to try and get one of the two guys to slow down, so if I pump towards the TE, maybe he will jump and I can evade."

 

The issue is 2 defenders were either at Wentz's feet or in his face within 3 seconds, and there was no checkdown to take.  What he tried to do was buy time to throw the ball away, but he had to move to his left, and he coudln't throw the ball with his right hand. 

 

I actually don't think he was trying to complete anything, I think he was trying to get the ball out, incomplete, and avoid a game-ending safety.

 

I agree, the play call was not great.  However, a lot of things had to completely fail for it to be the debacle it was.  Primarily, as you noted, the OL completely bit it, basically, and the RB didn't get out to be an outlet.  The TE was tied up as well.  Of the 5 possible targets, the 2 closest to the LOS were eliminated, and there was immediate pressure. 

 

The only thing Wentz could have done is bailed earlier and tried to run to his left and get out of the end-zone, maybe he gets sacked, maybe he gets a yard or two.  

 

That situation actually would have been a really good place for a draw or a screen.  The game was tied, you don't have to be super aggressive, and you are in the shadow of your own end zone.  The Titans have to be thinking pass. Which makes draws and screens effective.  You don't need to get 20 yards on your first play.  Get 5-8 yards, and then you've got a bit more breathing room.  

 

I also like the idea in those situations of getting the QB on the move.  Roll the pocket a bit in either direction so the defense doesn't know exactly where the QB is going to be standing. 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Voice_of_Reason