The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[mhd24]

21 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Thanks.   Nope.  If they did Richmond I might have.  But they are doing Ashburn this time and its not even open to everyone (which I think is a mistake) and doing a lottery system for fans to watch.

 

From my perspective it really is a great outlet to watch QBs because they are made to make the same throws again and again unlike during games.  So for example you can see their accuracy on all three levels and apples to apples with other QBs on the roster because they throw back to back.  You can see their velocity.  You can see their consistency. 

 

And at least from my perspective, some of what I saw carried into the season and gave me a window into the strengths and weaknesses of the QBs.  

 

Part of the reason why I do not dismiss what Bram, Keim, Logan Paulsen have seen in camp is IMHO you can see the QBs in sort of a naked way in camp.   And I don't think you need to be a QB guru to see that -- its pretty obvious when you watch it, it doesn't require heavy thinking. 

 

Bram for example got into a lot of detail as to what he saw in camp.  He thought Wentz in the quick game looked very sharp.  His arm strength looked very impressive.  He along with Paulsen thought he didn't throw the cleaniest ball meaning the WR had to adjust to the throws more than they'd like.  I doubt it was because Logan Paulsen who actually caught balls from NFL QBs lacks the perspective to understand QB accuracy.  I am sure he gets it way better than we do.   

 

Like i said when you watch in camp you can see the Qbs throw the same route at times 10-15 times in the span of 5 minutes -- you'd be amazed at the perspective that gives you of a player.  And yes if you watched enough camps and seen enough Qbs its not hard to do apples to apples comparisons to other QBs to help said perspective.

 

 

Yeah, I remember being taken aback by your observations on Case, Colt, and Haskins.  It was eye opening (compared to the edited down versions media reporters give for the most part).  

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

Yeah, I remember being taken aback by your observations on Case, Colt, and Haskins.  It was eye opening (compared to the edited down versions media reporters give for the most part).  

 

Thanks.  I can't stress enough its not hard to see when you see the same player throw route after route right in front of your face on all three levels.  Feet away from the action.  It's so unique.

 

Reporters have talked about ditto -- they love watching camp because they see so much they couldn't otherwise.

 

And I try to not let my predispositions overrule what I see.  For example, I was high on the Fitzpatrick signing.  But in camp I wasn't really blown away -- I thought he looked decent but I could see why he's had a roller coaster career because he was hot at times but then turned dead cold out of nowhere.  Heinicke oddly was a bit the same way, hot and cold accuracy -- you can see the lack of zip on his balls even compared to Fitzpatrick who isn't known to have a strong arm. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Rivera’s confidence comes from the team’s trials late in the 2021 season and the belief that his players can take “big steps” in his third year as their coach.

“The maturity level, more so than anything else, [shows] that these guys are ready to accept the responsibility of it all,” Rivera said during a phone interview from California this month. “… Last year, going into this whole thing, my big concern was maturity. And having gone through what we went through … I just kind of feel like this group of guys is ready to take a step.”

 

Rivera claims to not feel any extra pressure going into Year 3.

 

“Not after the first year,” he said. “And then not after what we went through last year. You think about what we went through for two seasons, and you say: ‘You know what? Whatever happens, happens.’ But as long as we work hard, play hard and give our best effort, we’ll see what happens. And we’ll let the chips fall where they may.”

Last year, the then-Washington Football Team lost starting quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick after just 16 snaps because of a hip injury and turned to Taylor Heinicke the rest of the way, save for the one game it started Garrett Gilbert because Heinicke contracted the coronavirus. Washington lost six of its first eight games, bounced back bounced back with four straight wins, then lost starting defensive ends Montez Sweat and Young to injuries. It also lost most of its defense to coronavirus issues; shared the pain of safety Deshazor Everett, who was the driver in a crash that killed his longtime girlfriend; and shared more pain when Sweat’s brother was killed. Washington struggled to cope with it all, as evidenced by the in-game fight between its two defensive tackles in a blowout at Dallas.

Rivera, though still irked by a belief that his players weren’t given enough credit for overcoming unusual circumstances, also believes those circumstances brought his team closer — and may have set a tone for this season.

 

“We had a bunch of guys go through some real-life s---, and that was hard,” he said. “It was rough on a lot of guys, and for us, we’re still trying to change and develop who we are and find our guys, and we’ll keep going through this process. …

“Because we’re a young team and we’ve had to play a lot of young guys and we’ve had to go through a lot … and we’re still standing — that gives me confidence.”

The confidence comes, in part, from the skill position players the Commanders have added. It also comes from the potential of their defense and from the veterans they brought in on the offensive line.

In the past, Rivera has cited his third year with the Carolina Panthers in 2013 as reason for optimism with the Commanders. After two losing seasons in Charlotte, Rivera’s Panthers finished 12-4 in 2013 to win their division and finished second in the league in points allowed and yards allowed. Drafting an all-pro quarterback, Cam Newton, ahead of Year 1 was the biggest puzzle piece, but rounding out the line for protection and surrounding him with playmakers were priorities.

Those priorities followed Rivera to Washington. This offseason, after trading for quarterback Carson Wentz — and taking on his $22 million fully guaranteed salary — the Commanders signed veterans Andrew Norwell and Trai Turner to replace Brandon Scherff and Ereck Flowers. They drafted wide receiver Jahan Dotson in the first round, added a powerful running back in Brian Robinson Jr. in the third and found Cole Turner, a 6-foot-5 tight end with a large catch radius, in the fifth. Then they welcomed back wide receiver Curtis Samuel from groin and hamstring injuries and re-signed star wideout Terry McLaurin, and they hope to have tight end Logan Thomas and Young back from knee injuries soon. (Thomas, Young and center Chase Roullier are likely to begin camp on the physically unable to perform list as they continue to recover, but Samuel is expected to be good to go.)

 

“If we can stay healthy with our offensive line, get Logan back soon and some of those young guys at tight end to develop, if Terry continues to be the player that he is and we get a healthy Curtis, Dyami [Brown] grows a little bit, Cam [Sims] contributes the way we believe he can and Jahan is the player we believe he can be, we feel like we’ve got a good skill set there,” Rivera said. “The running backs continue to grow and learn, and I like the tandem of guys we have there. Then if Carson can go out and just make good decisions and let his athleticism play for him, I think we can be somebody to contend with.”

Rivera added that scheme and ensuring the Commanders are getting the best out of their talent are among the most important factors.

“Are we putting these guys in the best position to have success? It always goes back to that, too, and that’s the thing that we have to be very cognizant about, because we have a good group and we’ve got some skilled players, but we just don’t know how good we can be yet,” he said.

 

Rivera said having at least 10 offensive linemen with considerable experience was important, too, because it helped the team last year, when injuries forced it to cycle through five centers. He also has said keeping core players such as McLaurin, defensive tackle Jonathan Allen and Thomas has long been a priority.

 

“We’ve found a good number of [core players],” Rivera said. “I don’t think we have all the pieces. … This training camp will be very important for us to see where some of our players are. Have they developed? Have they gotten to where they need to be? Going into this, there were a lot of question marks. We obviously had to change a lot of our thinking now that we have Carson. My thought process changed with it, about who we are and who we can be.”

And, of course, adding a quarterback whose skill set fits the scheme was a years-long priority. Wentz will be starting quarterback No. 7 for Washington since Rivera arrived in 2020. After being traded by the Philadelphia Eagles and Indianapolis Colts in successive offseasons, Wentz comes with plenty of unknowns, including whether he can help revive a franchise that has been in the doldrums for much of the past two decades.

Rivera, again, has confidence.

“I know a lot of people don’t give us a lot of credit for that or give us any hope for being any good this year, which is fine,” he said. “But we’re going to fight. We’re going to show up and give everything we are.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/07/23/ron-rivera-training-camp-2022/

[mistertim]

6 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

I just read an article about catchable balls and how before Elway it was just about throwing it quickly but he destroyed so many hands that it was about catchability too.

 

Interestingly enough one thing about QBs that throw hard is that most of their interceptions are of their WRs hands, as the DBs can't normally catch them either. 

 

I remember reading about Favre being the same way, especially when he first got into the league. Everything was a fastball with about 20 pounds of mustard on it, so he was actually hurting receivers hands and they were dropping some balls because he threw so hard.

[philibusters]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I remember reading about Favre being the same way, especially when he first got into the league. Everything was a fastball with about 20 pounds of mustard on it, so he was actually hurting receivers hands and they were dropping some balls because he threw so hard.

 

I think Jon Gruden who was an assistant coach with the Packers said Favre broke his finger (or maybe dislocated) playing catch.

Edited July 24, 2022 by philibusters

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I’m more interested in watching Sam Howell than any other player in camp. Wentz might rehabilitate himself, but I am still holding out hope that we could draft and develop our own franchise QB.

 

Get ‘em Sam!!!!!

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I’m more interested in watching Sam Howell than any other player in camp. Wentz might rehabilitate himself, but I am still holding out hope that we could draft and develop our own franchise QB.

 

Get ‘em Sam!!!!!

 

I'm curious how they'll deal with Howell. He's a late round guy so there's no real need to push him too hard to be a starter, but at the same time if they believe he has the potential to be the QB of the future, will they push him anyway to see how he handles it and how quickly he develops? I'd hope so.

[Cooleyfan1993]

29 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm curious how they'll deal with Howell. He's a late round guy so there's no real need to push him too hard to be a starter, but at the same time if they believe he has the potential to be the QB of the future, will they push him anyway to see how he handles it and how quickly he develops? I'd hope so.

JP Finlay has been saying Howell will likely get a ton of 2nd half playing time this preseason. That would be ideal I think. 

[Conn]

I don’t really see a reason why Heinicke would even need to see the field in preseason, Howell should get an absurd amount of playing time as long as he’s not getting needlessly clobbered out there. 

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, Conn said:

I don’t really see a reason why Heinicke would even need to see the field in preseason, Howell should get an absurd amount of playing time as long as he’s not getting needlessly clobbered out there. 

 

Yeah I think at this point TH is basically a known quantity and pretty much is what he is. Probably not much reason for him to get a bunch of playing time in preseason when there's a talented rookie they need to evaluate. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 7/23/2022 at 6:16 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 The context of your point though throws me off. You are challenging Paulsen's criticism of Wentz because you feel you know what the real criticism of Wentz should be.  So searching for the Dan angle is tough here.  Maybe like Irsay, Dan is out on Wentz from the jump and wants the fans to turn against Wentz early?   And playing along why would Keim concurr considering he doesn't work for the team?

 

So I gather its some matrix move on your end where you see it where others don't, that may come off weird to people like me, but you see it clearly.  If so Dan is an even more odd and twisted dude than I've criticized him for on the FO thread.  

 

 

SIP, this is massively close to giving Dan the benefit of the doubt.  
 

Just saying.

 

(This is a joke.)

[zCommander]

9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Rivera’s confidence comes from the team’s trials late in the 2021 season and the belief that his players can take “big steps” in his third year as their coach........

 

Nicki Jhabvala on the radio this morning talking about this article that she wrote and also said our record will be 7-10. This was our record last year. I refuse to believe or even want to think we will be no better than last year. I am not going to very happy if we are not 11-6 or better but we can't be less than 10-7. The upgrade at the QB position will look like a failure.  

[FootballZombie]

I think the only reason you would see much of any sizable playing time for TH in preseason outside of injury would be a situation where you need to evaluate something and Howell is unable to provide quality reps in a given area that needs evaluation.

 

Really specific things. Like reading a defense pre-snap to make an adjustment to run direction or pass pro. Or issues mesmerizing certain sections of the playbook. Inability in these areas would prevent you from getting quality tape on depth RBs, WRs and linemen. A lot of rookies struggle with this stuff and its hard to know how much time will be allotted to him in TC to learn this stuff when he is 3rd on the depth chart.

 

Coaches should have a good idea about if he can handle these things before preseason.

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

I think the only reason you would see much of any sizable playing time for TH in preseason outside of injury would be a situation where you need to evaluate something and Howell is unable to provide quality reps in a given area that needs evaluation.

 

Really specific things. Like reading a defense pre-snap to make an adjustment to run direction or pass pro. Or issues mesmerizing certain sections of the playbook. Inability in these areas would prevent you from getting quality tape on depth RBs, WRs and linemen. A lot of rookies struggle with this stuff and its hard to know how much time will be allotted to him in TC to learn this stuff when he is 3rd on the depth chart.

 

Coaches should have a good idea about if he can handle these things before preseason.

Yeah, maybe. 
 

I think at the end, Howell will get  3 halves of football and TH and Wentz will split the other 3 halves with Wentz getting more playing time.  
 

They're going to want to get Howell as much experience as they can.  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

22 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Nicki Jhabvala on the radio this morning talking about this article that she wrote and also said our record will be 7-10. This was our record last year. I refuse to believe or even want to think we will be no better than last year. I am not going to very happy if we are not 11-6 or better but we can't be less than 10-7. The upgrade at the QB position will look like a failure.  

 

Not just that. We'd go from a pretty tough schedule to an easy one, upgrade at QB and other spots, have the D noticeably improve in the 2nd half (besides the whole team getting covid) and can't improve the W/L record? That's rough.

 

I think the roster and organization need a lot of rethinking if we stay at 7-10. Cause something is holding the team back at that point. Or a lot of somethings.

[Voice_of_Reason]

23 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Nicki Jhabvala on the radio this morning talking about this article that she wrote and also said our record will be 7-10. This was our record last year. I refuse to believe or even want to think we will be no better than last year. I am not going to very happy if we are not 11-6 or better but we can't be less than 10-7. The upgrade at the QB position will look like a failure.  

She’s been a wet blanket on the record.

 

Who is she employed by, let me check, oh wait, that makes sense.  
 

I like Nikki for the most part.  But I think she’s not unbiased based on her employer.

 

 

[757SeanTaylor21]

I would like Ron to start to give confidence in the team and start just blanketing "we can be a team to contend with....we going to show up and give it everything we have...as long as we play hard we will see what happens". Man I want him to start saying as long as we play hard im confident we will win. We are a team to contend with....like just showing up and giving it your all isn't enough bro. I need yall to win. I need yall to stop having moral victories. 

[zCommander]

53 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

She’s been a wet blanket on the record.

 

Who is she employed by, let me check, oh wait, that makes sense.  
 

I like Nikki for the most part.  But I think she’s not unbiased based on her employer.

 

 

 

Then she shouldn't write sport articles if she is that stupid. I understand that is her opinion but damn even a blind squirrel can see the improvements.

[Skinsinparadise]

At least Madden likes our O line 😀

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Then she shouldn't write sport articles if she is that stupid. I understand that is her opinion but damn even a blind squirrel can see the improvements.

I'm not saying she's stupid, so please let's not infer that.  I said I like her. And if I didn't make it clear, I don't think she's stupid, I think she's good at her job.  

 

But there is no question that she's always been a wet blanket on the season, and one of the only one of the beat reporters that is as much of a wet blanket as she is.  JP thinks it's a 9 or 10 win team, I think Keim is in the same area, Standig had Michael Phillips on and they both thought the team was at least a 10 win team.

 

Even Sheehan has said he thinks it's a 9 or 10 win team, and that's REALLY out of character for him, because the Vegas line is something like 7.5, and the public is pounding the over.  The contrarian play, which is his thing from a betting perspective, is to take the under, and he hasn't done it to this point. 

 

Just about all of the people who cover the team, and each of them are doing some type of "look at the opponents" work as well (ie: JP's pod and Keim's pod have both had a reporter from each of the opponents on to discuss what's going on with them), are somewhere in the 9-10 range.  

 

Some are a little more bullish, Mitch Tischler (Bullish Mitch) thinks they have a higher ceiling than 10, JP thinks their ceiling is 10.  

 

But Nikki has been the lone outlier from all the people I've talked to who is below 9.  

 

I can only surmise that she's either directly or indirectly influenced by the organization she works for, which is the Washington Post, which is literally at war with with the organization.  

 

Because her reporting is very good, and she asks good questions.  It's when she has to give her personal opinion when she is all sour grapes.

 

And who knows, she might be proven right.  But I think the fact she works for the Post definitely colors her opinion of the team.  

38 minutes ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

I would like Ron to start to give confidence in the team and start just blanketing "we can be a team to contend with....we going to show up and give it everything we have...as long as we play hard we will see what happens". Man I want him to start saying as long as we play hard im confident we will win. We are a team to contend with....like just showing up and giving it your all isn't enough bro. I need yall to win. I need yall to stop having moral victories. 

I think he kindof said that.  But I also don't think he's going to put out bulletin board material.

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 7/20/2022 at 11:40 PM, zCommander said:

See video below. Terry has his eyes on the ball and even puts his hand up for the QB and then sees it being short and he jumps up to grab it. Not seeing the contortion you saying. 

I've been meaning to get back to this.  (Which I'm sure nobody wants me to, but I was busy, and I didn't get a chance to chime in. And I saw this, and it was red meat, and I just have to.)

 

TH caused that concussion.  100%  That was a horrendous ball which hung in the air, was late, and off-target.  That ball needed to be thrown earlier, and then it needed to be lasered into the spot between the up corner and the covering safety. And it needed to lead Terry UP the field towards the end-zone which would have taken him away from both defenders.  

 

By leaving it high and late, he caused Terry to have to adjust in an awkward way, jump for the ball, and the defenders to close on the ball.  And a further point, TH stepped into that throw and gave it absolutely everything he had.  And it was STILL late, high, off target, and put his receiver in the blue tent. 

 

If your intention of posting the video was to ABSOLVE TH of a horrendous throw that got his receiver hurt, then it actually had the opposite effect, since the throw was late, high, and lacked velocity.  By posting this video, you proved TH's throw WAS bad, which led to an injury.  And sure, it wasn't some contortion act, it was the mere act of jumping and then being flipped upside down by 2 Dallas defenders, who should never had had a play on the ball to begin with, if the throw had been accurate, on time, and had more velocity.  

 

NOTE: I'm absolutely NOT saying that EVERY QB doesn't have moments like this.  You can go through the film of every single QB in league history, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, John Elway, Dan Marino, every single one of them has, from time to time, been late on a throw and hung a guy out to dry.

 

The issue with TH is simply he doesn't have the physical tools to limit those occurrences.  Because he lacks arm strength, with the closing speed of DBs, even "open" throws become contested catches.  

 

That's not a nock on him, it's just what it is.  

[FootballZombie]

 

I am afraid of the approaching storm

 

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I've been meaning to get back to this.  (Which I'm sure nobody wants me to, but I was busy, and I didn't get a chance to chime in. And I saw this, and it was red meat, and I just have to.)

 

TH caused that concussion.  100%  That was a horrendous ball which hung in the air, was late, and off-target.  That ball needed to be thrown earlier, and then it needed to be lasered into the spot between the up corner and the covering safety. And it needed to lead Terry UP the field towards the end-zone which would have taken him away from both defenders.  

 

By leaving it high and late, he caused Terry to have to adjust in an awkward way, jump for the ball, and the defenders to close on the ball.  And a further point, TH stepped into that throw and gave it absolutely everything he had.  And it was STILL late, high, off target, and put his receiver in the blue tent. 

 

If your intention of posting the video was to ABSOLVE TH of a horrendous throw that got his receiver hurt, then it actually had the opposite effect, since the throw was late, high, and lacked velocity.  By posting this video, you proved TH's throw WAS bad, which led to an injury.  And sure, it wasn't some contortion act, it was the mere act of jumping and then being flipped upside down by 2 Dallas defenders, who should never had had a play on the ball to begin with, if the throw had been accurate, on time, and had more velocity.  

 

NOTE: I'm absolutely NOT saying that EVERY QB doesn't have moments like this.  You can go through the film of every single QB in league history, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, John Elway, Dan Marino, every single one of them has, from time to time, been late on a throw and hung a guy out to dry.

 

The issue with TH is simply he doesn't have the physical tools to limit those occurrences.  Because he lacks arm strength, with the closing speed of DBs, even "open" throws become contested catches.  

 

That's not a nock on him, it's just what it is.  

 

I don't do 100% since there is no such thing. But the video wasn't even about absolve as you put it. It was about on which play that gave Terry the only concussion of the season. Since the discussion was about concussions and how many. I think someone said they don't remember which play it was on and so I posted that video. 

 

[skinny21]

28 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I don't do 100% since there is no such thing. But the video wasn't even about absolve as you put it. It was about on which play that gave Terry the only concussion of the season. Since the discussion was about concussions and how many. I think someone said they don't remember which play it was on and so I posted that video. 

 

I remember it as VOR (maybe it was someone else though?) saying Terry had to contort himself to try to make the catch, and you posting the video to show otherwise.

 

man I can’t wait for the season to start

[Thinking Skins]

8 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

I think the only reason you would see much of any sizable playing time for TH in preseason outside of injury would be a situation where you need to evaluate something and Howell is unable to provide quality reps in a given area that needs evaluation.

 

Really specific things. Like reading a defense pre-snap to make an adjustment to run direction or pass pro. Or issues mesmerizing certain sections of the playbook. Inability in these areas would prevent you from getting quality tape on depth RBs, WRs and linemen. A lot of rookies struggle with this stuff and its hard to know how much time will be allotted to him in TC to learn this stuff when he is 3rd on the depth chart.

 

Coaches should have a good idea about if he can handle these things before preseason.

THe best thing for this fan base in the preseason will be Howell looking good. Regardless of how Wentz plays, him throwing deep balls to our backups and running up the scores agains backups will get people at least talking about us, adn thinking about our backups as having talent. And I'm talking outdise of a souting repoty or college ball. HOwell looking good means that our young TEs and young WRs look good too and that means that we're more confident that Wentz can throw to an arsenol of weapons.