Biden/Harris Legislative/Policy Discussions - Now with a Republican House starting 2023

[Larry]

I wholeheartedly agree that 

 

A). I got no clue how Afghanistan could have been handled better. 
 

B).  But this is an ugly mark on the honor of this nation. And Joe Biden is the guy in charge when it happened. It's legitimate to blame him, at least to that extent. 

[NoCalMike]

I won't even pretend to speak with authority on Afghanistan or foreign policy in general. but I get the feeling the main reason why the troops hadn't been pulled until now is because every President that was in office since that war started knew that what we are seeing right now was going to happen, and found it easier to kick the can down the road and let "the next guy" deal with it.  I mean seriously, we have been there 20 years now, spent trillions of dollars to train defense forces etc etc...yet we announce we are leaving and their entire gov't basically rolls over and allows it?  If THAT is what we get after 20 years, who in their right mind would be suggesting we stay  not only another 20 years, but even another 20 days?  I actually sort of give Biden a little credit here for having the stones to not only make the call but then come out and say he stands by the decision despite how messy the optics look.  I honestly didn't think Biden would be the type of President to do it. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

7 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

I actually sort of give Biden a little credit here for having the stones to not only make the call but then come out and say he stands by the decision despite how messy the optics look.  I honestly didn't think Biden would be the type of President to do it. 

My opinion (and it seems to match a lot of others that I’m seeing) isn’t negative in regards to the decision to pull out.  The negative opinion is towards the way it is being done.

[goskins10]

At first I was really thinking it was bad how he pulled out.  But then we don’t know what we don’t know.  As others said previous presidents may not have pulled out as this was the only outcome unless you want to occupy another country for the foreseeable future.   I am very sorry for the people suffering so that it leaves me in a quandary.  I think I have settled in on Biden doing what’s in the best interest of the US. 

 

in the end not sure there is a good answer.  Still would like see what can be done diplomatically to help those being persecuted.  

[TheDoyler23]

 

35 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

At first I was really thinking it was bad how he pulled out.  But then we don’t know what we don’t know.  As others said previous presidents may not have pulled out as this was the only outcome unless you want to occupy another country for the foreseeable future.   I am very sorry for the people suffering so that it leaves me in a quandary.  I think I have settled in on Biden doing what’s in the best interest of the US. 

 

in the end not sure there is a good answer.  Still would like see what can be done diplomatically to help those being persecuted.  

 

I see it more like, he's getting the blame because it's happening. He can't fix the cake that's already baking in the oven. His predecessor made the deal and the wheels went in motion months ago. His predecessor didn't actually have a plan besides legitimizing the Taliban. His predecessor should have been helping this day in NOVEMBER of 2020, His predecessor should have developed an exit strategy and immigration/vetting policy. As far as I can tell, there wasn't much of anything in place, but maybe i'm wrong?  

 

 

 

 

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, TheDoyler23 said:

 

 

I see it more like, he's getting the blame because it's happening. He can't fix the cake that's already baking in the oven. His predecessor made the deal and the wheels went in motion months ago. His predecessor didn't actually have a plan besides legitimizing the Taliban. His predecessor should have been helping this day in NOVEMBER of 2020, His predecessor should have developed an exit strategy and immigration/vetting policy. As far as I can tell, there wasn't much of anything in place, but maybe i'm wrong?  

 

 

 

 

I agree but in fairness shouldn’t Obama have done  more to get us out?  I liked a lot of what Obama did but I saw this as something he did not handle well   But maybe I don’t understand it well enough.   
 

I was hoping Biden would be more strategic in the withdrawal but again we don’t know what we don’t know.  I am willing to trust he did what he could and there was just no good solution.  
 

it’s just so tragic for those being persecuted by the Taliban.   

[TheDoyler23]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

I agree but in fairness shouldn’t Obama have done  more to get us out?  I liked a lot of what Obama did but I saw this as something he did not handle well   But maybe I don’t understand it well enough.   

 

Yea, probably. The Biden Admin made the agreement in 2012 to withdraw by the end of 2014, but obviously that didn't work out. 

[Jumbo]

i  request everyone move their 'afghan withdrawl' discussion to here (see newly edited title):

 

 

 

the withdrawl dialog starts around pg 99

 

thanks  

 

 

 

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[visionary]

 

 

Oh come on, America!

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

1 minute ago, visionary said:

 

 

Oh come on, America!

I have NEVER understood "independents"...

[tshile]

Just one to point out that you’re sort of in charge of your opinion. The Afghanistan situation can be a number of things. It can be this awful black eye caused by… whichever president (or collection of) you’d like… or the people there… or religious zealots, etc. 

 

it can also just be an unfortunately bad situation. 
 

there’s lots of ways of looking at it. Like, that it was a ****hole we tried to make a western democracy, but couldn’t. 
 

as much as I don’t like what’s going on, I don’t feel a need to make it this grossly awful thing some are. 
 

Also, I’d caution against forming too strong of an opinion right now. The story is not necessarily over. There’s a lot of moving parts aside from the Biden administrations plan, the way the Trump administration brokered the deal, etc. 

[Larry]

3 hours ago, tshile said:

 

Also, I’d caution against forming too strong of an opinion right now. The story is not necessarily over. 

 

But, we all know how it's going to end. 
 

There will come a day. Tomorrow. Next week. 4 weeks from now. When the last bus/boat/plane leaves. And when it does, there will be hundreds of desperate, panicked, people who will be pleading, literally for their lives, not to be abandoned. 
 

No matter how many people we get out, that scene will be the one that defines the event. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Larry

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

 

But, we all know how it's going to end. 
 

There will come a day. Tomorrow. Next week. 4 weeks from now. When the last bus/boat/plane leaves. And when it does, there will be hundreds of desperate, panicked, people who will be pleading, literally for their lives, not to be abandoned. 
 

No matter how many people we get out, that scene will be the one that defines the event. 

I was referring more to the resistance group that’s forming in the panjshir valley. Which gets very little discussion time in most areas. 
 

the thing that’s going to take years to play out. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by tshile

[No Excuses]

8 hours ago, BRAVEONAWARPATH said:

I have NEVER understood "independents"...

A good portion of them are low information voters for the most part. Imagine seeing the COVID disaster and the refusal of Republicans to vaccinate/spread conspiracies, and saying to yourself that these are the guys to elect as our representatives. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by No Excuses

[Larry]

 

I'll also say that here in ES, I've seen a lot of ES posters who are "independent", who have never ever watched Fox News or any other major right wing media source, but who just happen to spew every single right wing talking point.  

[EmirOfShmo]

House Democrats clear path toward passing $3.5 trillion budget bill and infrastructure plan after breaking stalemate

 

• The House voted to approve a $3.5 trillion budget resolution, advance a bipartisan infrastructure bill and move forward with sweeping voting rights legislation.
• After centrists threatened to derail Democrats’ economic agenda by pushing for swift approval of the Senate-passed infrastructure plan, party leaders pledged to vote on it by Sept. 27.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/house-passes-budget-resolution-advances-infrastructure-bill.html

[tshile]

This comment is more Biden administration focused so I’m putting it here :

 

The botched evacuation stuff is going to be peanuts to the general buffoonish way Biden is handling this. It’s almost trumpian in terms of how disconnected and clueless the optics are. 
 

you’ve got Biden saying al qaeda is gone, and a haqqani guy is inside Kabul giving speeches to crowds. 
 

I realize the average American doesn’t know who the haqqanis are or what the haqqani network is, but it’ll be pretty easy to eviscerate Biden in this. The guy that was Obama’s vp because he was supposed to fill a foreign policy hole on the ticket; a guy that ran a campaign on being competent in foreign policy. 

 

what a colossal ****up.  I think his re-election chances are toast. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by tshile

[China]

36 minutes ago, tshile said:

 I think his re-election chances are toast. 

 

I don't think he ever intended to run for a second term, and only ran this past election because he really felt Trump needed to go and he could get him out (after all, he didn't run after Obama left).  I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't run for re-election.

[goskins10]

7 hours ago, tshile said:

This comment is more Biden administration focused so I’m putting it here :

 

The botched evacuation stuff is going to be peanuts to the general buffoonish way Biden is handling this. It’s almost trumpian in terms of how disconnected and clueless the optics are. 
 

you’ve got Biden saying al qaeda is gone, and a haqqani guy is inside Kabul giving speeches to crowds. 
 

I realize the average American doesn’t know who the haqqanis are or what the haqqani network is, but it’ll be pretty easy to eviscerate Biden in this. The guy that was Obama’s vp because he was supposed to fill a foreign policy hole on the ticket; a guy that ran a campaign on being competent in foreign policy. 

 

what a colossal ****up.  I think his re-election chances are toast. 

 

In terms of his administration, if he gets infrastructure passed it will not matter how this is handled regardless of how people feel about how it was done. 

 

You are right that not many know who the haqqanis are but the ugly truth is many do not care. If they should or not is a different conversation. But in the end Biden or whoever runs in 2024 can run on handling of covid (not perfect but much better than dumb dumb), getting an infrastructure bill passed and saving American lives by getting us out of Afghanistan even if they don't like how it was done, that is a pretty good story to tell in 2024 to most Americans. 

[88Comrade2000]

The people who give **** about haqquani weren’t likely to vote for a Dem anyway.

 

Unless we are in military conflict in 24 or there are terrorist attacks coming from Afghanistan; domestic issues will be the dominant 24 issues.

[tshile]

6 hours ago, goskins10 said:

if he gets infrastructure passed it will not matter how this is handled regardless of how people feel about how it was done. 

I think it depends. 
 

when it looked like an evacuation screwup and a taliban control screwup I was with you. 
 

If instead were talking about al qaeda being back to operating inside Afghanistan openly and without impunity… I don’t know. All the sudden the criticism from the right that required mental gymnastics to even approach making sense, becomes spot on accurate criticism (even if they themselves have no actual working alternative solution and never did)

 

it probably doesn’t matter anyways as I always felt there was a solid chance he had no interest in running

 

(I also always thought it was possible that was his plan, but being president for 3 years had a good chance of changing his mind when the time comes to officially make a decision…)

[skinsmarydu]

8 minutes ago, tshile said:

I think it depends. 
 

when it looked like an evacuation screwup and a taliban control screwup I was with you. 

 

(I also always thought it was possible that was his plan, but being president for 3 years had a good chance of changing his mind when the time comes to officially make a decision…)

Agree.   I don't think he was ever gonna do 2 terms, but I've been known to be wrong.  

Kamala is probably gonna run, and y'all know the myriad of reasons to question the success of her candidacy.  (Not that I wouldn't be supportive, if that's what it takes, considering what the other side is doing.)

[tshile]

Yeah I’m not a fan of the “it’s <so and so>’s turn”

 

doesnt really work out well. Hopefully there’s a full, normal primary. If she wins that, then I have no complaints as it’s earned

 

if she gifted the nomination… I’m afraid that may not go well. 

[88Comrade2000]

As I’ve said; only way Kamala becomes president is if Joe dies.  Kamala will not win a democratic primary and the Dems aren’t going to do what they did in 00; where they arm twisted everyone but Bill Bradley not to run.

 

I see a Warren- Sanders type candidate as the next Dem nominee after Joe. Especially, if Joe’s human infrastructure deal goes down in flames.