tshile Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, PeterMP said: He's worried about the national press that the people that vote for him are consuming. He doesn't care about the people in CA Does he care about democracy? does he care about a seemingly growing fascist movement? at some point in time as a leader you need to be willing to look at the bigger picture. we’re beyond accusations and reading between the lines. The worldview of the average/typical Republican is being shouted from the roof tops and they’ve dropped any attempt to disguise what it is. Refusing to come to terms with the current state of our democracy is either born of ignorance, not caring, or actually wanting it. And from where I sit it doesn’t really matter which option a person wants to pick. They all lead down the same path. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 (edited) I will say, I wouldn't give them the Trump tax cuts as the negotiating tool. I think giving them something on abortion or guns would be much more effective. Tie the bill to something like a national concealed weapons permit. The left would still freak, but it is something that you might end up having with the Supreme Court anyway, and it I think it would actually move things. 5 minutes ago, tshile said: Does he care about democracy? does he care about a seemingly growing fascist movement? at some point in time as a leader you need to be willing to look at the bigger picture. we’re beyond accusations and reading between the lines. The worldview of the average/typical Republican is being shouted from the roof tops and they’ve dropped any attempt to disguise what it is. Refusing to come to terms with the current state of our democracy is either born of ignorance, not caring, or actually wanting it. And from where I sit it doesn’t really matter which option a person wants to pick. They all lead down the same path. He appears to, and he's pushing on that front. And if you don't see a commission on 1/6, it seems like he might support eliminating the filibuster at least for that. But none of those are related to the infrastructure bill, which is what the conversation is about. Edited June 4, 2021 by PeterMP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, PeterMP said: I will say, I wouldn't give them the Trump tax cuts as the negotiating tool. I think giving them something on abortion or guns would be much more effective. Tie the bill to something like a national concealed weapons permit. The left would still freak, but it is something that you might end up having with the Supreme Court anyway, and it I think it would actually move things. Agreed. except, and I posted this before in a thread where we were talking about the changes in some states to allow concealed carry. I always thought that was a bargaining chip. But now, it’s not. They’re going to get it their own way now. They don’t need to negotiate with democrats to get it any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 12 minutes ago, PeterMP said: But none of those are related to the infrastructure bill, which is what the conversation is about. Gotcha. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: I know reconciliation was the only chance it had of passing. I don’t really get needing political cover. They know republican voters live in fantasy land. No GOP voter is going to say “well they tried to make it bipartisan but us Rs blocked them so I guess I can’t fault them too much for pushing thru their Marxist communist radical green new deal based jobs plan that will destroy the country. Shucks” This isn't a "radical green new deal" bill, it is being described as an infrastructure bill even by GOPers, and the people of WV understand that they need federal spending on that stuff as much as anyone. It's why half the **** in WV is named after Robert Byrd (who served for fifty-one years), he brought home the dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 1 hour ago, tshile said: By getting him to realize his re-election chances are probably toast and maybe he should get a grip on what’s happening and try to help fix it while he still has a chance? Well, that's probably not true, he isn't up for election again until 2024, and this type of thing hasn't had the desired effect in the past. Quote West Virginia Attorney General Patrick Morrisey has asked U.S. Sen. Joe Manchin to resign from Minority Leader Chuck Schumer’s leadership team. Manchin’s response was blunt. “I don’t give a ****, you understand?” Manchin told a Charleston Gazette-Mail reporter when asked about Morrisey’s call. “I just don’t give a ****. Don’t care if I get elected, don’t care if I get defeated, how about that? “If they think because I’m up for election, that I can be wrangled into voting for **** that I don’t like and can’t explain, they’re all crazy. “I’m not scared of an election, let’s put it that way. Elections do not bother me or scare me. I’m going to continue to do the same thing I’ve always done, extremely independent.” Edit: The way you get him in line is for the actual bill to be extremely beneficial for the people of WV, which it probably will be, and also give him the space to make noises about bipartisanship so he can play to his electorate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 Ugh diplomacy is so boring smacking him in the nose with a rolled up newspaper feels so much more fun 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 Joe Biden should invite Bobby Huggins to the White House for a brewsk (or 12). If he flips Huggs, Manchin will follow. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 (edited) That’s great and all but the clock is ticking on the midterms and Dems need to deliver meaningful change to get unbelievable enthusiasm and turnout in order to break tradition and not wash them all out of power for another 6-10 years best case scenario. So yeah Manchin can tap dance around for the next 16 months and we can all act like it’s just part of his shtick before he eventually votes for what we want but I’ll believe that when I see it. In the meantime we all sit back and watch an authoritarian takeover of the country with a big smile on our faces because we are waiting for political cover Edited June 4, 2021 by Momma There Goes That Man 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 Yeah… I’m struggling to accept the way Biden et al are doing things because it feels like they don’t recognize what is going on. the republicans are bowing to a fascist take over of their party. and everyone else seems to think it’s just this thing that will pass and we need to “not make it worse” I said it earlier but the over arching theme seems to be that over throwing our government isn’t a big deal. And I’m having trouble squaring that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh8686 Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 A slightly different take... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 In my opinion, Biden should be pushing them for the voting rights act. In fact, that is really all I care about at the moment. Infrastructure can wait a little bit, I want 100% focus on voting rights. And let those two know that if they don’t cave, it will be hung around their necks and they will get zero support in their next election. Voting rights is one thing I don’t give a **** if we have bipartisan support for. 12 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 3 hours ago, Fresh8686 said: A slightly different take... palmer report hit the bar early this Friday anyway, a thread this is what I don’t get. Push republicans for support. Either we will do this without you and remove the filibuster or we will do it with your say and 60 votes. But it’s happening. They cut their legs out before Biden was even sworn in by promising never to remove the filibuster. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 42 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: palmer report hit the bar early this Friday anyway, a thread this is what I don’t get. Push republicans for support. Either we will do this without you and remove the filibuster or we will do it with your say and 60 votes. But it’s happening. They cut their legs out before Biden was even sworn in by promising never to remove the filibuster. Well, you don't threaten to eliminate the filibuster over passing a law if you aren't willing to follow through on it. What they're telling you is maintaining the filibuster is more important to them. (Though I like the idea of pushing them on what they are doing to get support, what they think can be done to get support, or why they think these are important but Republicans won't support them.) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 (edited) The problem with Dems removing the filibuster is that the republicans want it gone too. they’d love to get to do whatever they want with a simple majority in both houses. Which, despite what is said here, they don’t think is impossible going forward. And what do they give up? An infrastructure bill? what do you think they’d do with the filibuster gone and 51 seats? Edited June 5, 2021 by tshile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 11 minutes ago, tshile said: The problem with Dems removing the filibuster is that the republicans want it gone too. they’d love to get to do whatever they want with a simple majority in both houses. Which, despite what is said here, they don’t think is impossible going forward. And what do they give up? An infrastructure bill? what do you think they’d do with the filibuster gone and 51 seats? You think they won’t do it anyways? Their Supreme Court history shows they will do and say whatever. But I agree that if the Dems are going to do it, it needs to be for something worthwhile. That is why I said voting rights, not infrastructure. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 10 minutes ago, tshile said: The problem with Dems removing the filibuster is that the republicans want it gone too. they’d love to get to do whatever they want with a simple majority in both houses. Which, despite what is said here, they don’t think is impossible going forward. And what do they give up? An infrastructure bill? what do you think they’d do with the filibuster gone and 51 seats? I want the filibuster gone because Congress is elected to get more things done than just pass reconciliation bills once a year and confirm nominees. Elections should have consequences. If country elects a Republican majority and they pass a bill that ****s up the country, so be it. Maybe that'll get enough people to get off their ass and vote Dems the following cycle. That's how democracy should work, not this bull**** where people fight culture wars all day long because very little of consequence actually gets done in the halls of Congress. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 4 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said: In my opinion, Biden should be pushing them for the voting rights act. In fact, that is really all I care about at the moment. Infrastructure can wait a little bit, I want 100% focus on voting rights. And let those two know that if they don’t cave, it will be hung around their necks and they will get zero support in their next election. Voting rights is one thing I don’t give a **** if we have bipartisan support for. It's also one thing that can't be passed through reconciliation. So unless you think you're going to get support from 50 Dems and 10 R's, then you're conducting a show vote that you know in advance will fail. (Note: Me, I'm not opposed to "a show vote that you know will fail". At least, not of it's a good show. Make the proposal really good looking.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 17 hours ago, tshile said: The problem with Dems removing the filibuster is that the republicans want it gone too. they’d love to get to do whatever they want with a simple majority in both houses. Which, despite what is said here, they don’t think is impossible going forward. And what do they give up? An infrastructure bill? what do you think they’d do with the filibuster gone and 51 seats? i will live with those consequences. Look at the ACA, far from perfect but it was politically disastrous to repeal it in 2017/2018 for them and they couldn’t get it done. Remove the filibuster. Pass voting rights reform and protections. Minimum wage increase. Public Medicare option. Infrastructure/jobs bill. Climate change initiatives. Tax increases on the wealthy. Universal pre-k. dare republicans to remove those popular life altering bills once they are in place 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 If the gop has full control in 25; filibuster is the first thing to go. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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