Leonard Washington Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 17 minutes ago, Morneblade said: He can get better at that, but he's always going to have a below average NFL arm. Brady and Cousins arms have improved since they first came into the league. Mechanics, footwork, strength and obviously anticipation can improve with coaching and training. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 Just now, PartyPosse said: I'd honestly be ok with that. Rather give him big money after two straight years of good play then pay him after one. Agreed, this is where I'm at as well. Dont play games with him, let him earn what he can next year with his play and give it to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morneblade Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 9 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: If he's producing and winning, will his height or arm matter to his agent or a QB hungry team in a bidding war? This does need to be clarified. Win with him and franchise QB is huge difference money wise. Because, like you, "he can't make certain throws", his arm isn't strong enough". All the same things that kept him out of the league. They will be sued against him. So I actually doubt there ends up being a bidding war. And as I mentioned in another post here, I think as long as Scott Turner is hear, we get a discount. Because Scott is the only reason he ever got a shot to begin with. And I don't think Taylor will ever forget it. As for what we think he is, I don't think it's a "Franchise QB". With his physical limitations, he would have to be Drew Brees accurate to be in that category, and be quicker with reads and release. And he has not yet shown that. So, more "guy we can win games with". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, Leonard Washington said: Brady and Cousins arms have improved since they first came into the league. Mechanics, footwork, strength and obviously anticipation can improve with coaching and training. Brady and Cousins both had NFL arms from the jump. Did they improve a little? Yeah. But from where Heineke is to them is not something he will be able to overcome. That doesn’t mean he can’t be a player in the league. But it means he has a ceiling lower than you would ideally like. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morneblade Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, Leonard Washington said: Brady and Cousins arms have improved since they first came into the league. Mechanics, footwork, strength and obviously anticipation can improve with coaching and training. But both had better arms the TH coming out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, Leonard Washington said: Brady and Cousins arms have improved since they first came into the league. Mechanics, footwork, strength and obviously anticipation can improve with coaching and training. I think guys can improve their arm strength to a certain extent by refining mechanics and such. But guys with big time arm talent usually just have it or they don't. It has a lot to do with torque and that takes into account the entire posterior chain, tendons, ligaments, muscles, etc. It's a genetic thing. Sort of like vertical leap. You can train and get your jumping technique down, but your upper limit is basically what your genetics allow for. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins island connection Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 One thing I think we can say about TH is if there's a big game and the WFT loses, I doubt TH will be out there swapping jerseys, posing for photos with the opposing teams, and smiling from ear to ear, like alot of players do today. He takes the game personal, he wants to win, and he just wants to be acknowledged as a good starting QB, which alot of the media seems to be somewhat on board with but his own damn fans not so much... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 25 minutes ago, Morneblade said: Because, like you, "he can't make certain throws", his arm isn't strong enough". All the same things that kept him out of the league. They will be sued against him. So I actually doubt there ends up being a bidding war. This is why its important to watch the numbers he's putting up. If he improves on it next year, folks are going to try and pluck him from us. 25 minutes ago, Morneblade said: And as I mentioned in another post here, I think as long as Scott Turner is hear, we get a discount. Because Scott is the only reason he ever got a shot to begin with. And I don't think Taylor will ever forget it. I dont believe in hometown discounts anymore for us, im not holding my breathe in that one. 25 minutes ago, Morneblade said: As for what we think he is, I don't think it's a "Franchise QB". With his physical limitations, he would have to be Drew Brees accurate to be in that category, and be quicker with reads and release. And he has not yet shown that. So, more "guy we can win games with". Brees is a perfect example of someone people counted as limited and jus kept getting better after he left San Diego. I'm maintaining he arwnt 100% sure on what we have in Taylor yet, but I expect him to improve, not regress if he goes into next season as the starter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) I bet Taylor himself would find these conversations to be a trip, as far as talking about his next contract, how many years and $ it will be, and whether he’s tied to Scott Turner for life or not. This is a whole lot, real fast. We don’t even need to go back that far to find examples of a physically limited QB who had a hell of a season. Look no further than once Redskin, Chase Keenum. He put up 22/7, 3500 yards and took the vikings to the NFCC. He got a 2 year/36 million dollar deal from the Broncos. Deal came in 10 million per less than the guy who took his job. That being said, guys like Keenum and TH are more valuable to the team they’ve proven themselves with vs. the other 31 teams. Standing to make more money where they had success vs. the unknown. But I still think we have a lot more football to play with nobody threatening his job. We have him on a cheap deal for this season and next. Still plenty of time left on this ride. Edited October 4, 2021 by BatteredFanSyndrome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8noI3zoDs4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODU AGGIE Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 I think we really have to define what kind of year we are talking about TH having. Frankly, I think he can have a good year, but the way the Cowboys are playing, at this point I would have to assume they win the division. Our defense is not playing well enough right now to make me believe we can win the East, even if TH balls out the rest of the year. For this discussion, let's assume he plays well enough to get the Team into the playoffs as a wildcard team and then wins one playoff game. If that happens, I think he will want to renegotiate his current contract which is good through next year, and under those conditions, I think the Team will agree to do that. If that is what happens, I don't see Heinicke's agent agreeing to $10M a year. I would envision a contract at $20M to $25M, but certainly no less than $16M-$18M. If we make the playoffs this year, he will definitely be worth it. If we win eight or nine games and don't make the playoffs, I would not bet on him being able to renegotiate before next year, but I could be wrong. If I am wrong, I think $10M would be the ceiling, and it could be less than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 24 minutes ago, ODU AGGIE said: I think we really have to define what kind of year we are talking about TH having. Frankly, I think he can have a good year, but the way the Cowboys are playing, at this point I would have to assume they win the division. Our defense is not playing well enough right now to make me believe we can win the East, even if TH balls out the rest of the year. For this discussion, let's assume he plays well enough to get the Team into the playoffs as a wildcard team and then wins one playoff game. If that happens, I think he will want to renegotiate his current contract which is good through next year, and under those conditions, I think the Team will agree to do that. If that is what happens, I don't see Heinicke's agent agreeing to $10M a year. I would envision a contract at $20M to $25M, but certainly no less than $16M-$18M. If we make the playoffs this year, he will definitely be worth it. If we win eight or nine games and don't make the playoffs, I would not bet on him being able to renegotiate before next year, but I could be wrong. If I am wrong, I think $10M would be the ceiling, and it could be less than that. Unless Heinicke suddenly turns into Mahomes and starts absolutely shredding good defenses on a regular basis, I can't possibly see him demanding $25 million per year after 1 season. If they really like what they saw at he end of the season, I could see them offering something closer to $10-15 per year after this season. If Heinicke doesn't like that I suppose he could bet on himself not only continuing to play well but also staying healthy for another season and roll the dice. He'd also have to bet that other teams would be willing to offer him a massive payday. Which might not necessarily be the case. I know it's not the end-all-be-all, but the fact that he lacks many of the physical talent traits that teams tend to look for will work against him there. If they offered that 10-15 after this season it would probably be smart for him to lock in a deal now. That's a ****load more than he was making and he wouldn't have to worry about getting hurt and then never getting a decent contract. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 (edited) I'm obviously rooting for the guy because he gives us excitement and is clearly good at the end of tight games. But let's be honest, his ball hangs in the air way too long and he should have had two or three pics on Sunday. So clearly the only solution is to bring back Kirk and then pull him in favor of Heineken with 5 minutes to go in the game. Edited October 5, 2021 by Darrell Green Fan 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morneblade Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 37 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: This is why its important to watch the numbers he's putting up. If he improves on it next year, folks are going to try and pluck him from us. I dont believe in hometown discounts anymore for us, im not holding my breathe in that one. Brees is a perfect example of someone people counted as limited and jus kept getting better after he left San Diego. I'm maintaining he arwnt 100% sure on what we have in Taylor yet, but I expect him to improve, not regress if he goes into next season as the starter. Maybe. But as others have pointed out, he doesn't have a good NFL arm. And honestly, I tend to think teams tend to get too excited about arms strength, and not excited enough about intangibles. I also don't think that the teams looking to upgrade wouldn't be looking to do it via The Draft. TH is kinda a ugly duckling, he's not really going to "wow" people with his throws. I can understand not holding my breathe for a discount, but I think Taylor would. He's mentioned that Scott Turner is the only person that believed in him, and gave him multiple shots. I do think we get one, if it comes to that. Similar physically, but not in pedigree. I still think TH is going to fly more under the radar, no matter what he does. And Brees got let go by the Chargers. They drafted Rivers and released him after the season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapsSkins Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Renegade7 said: He'd turn it down and bet on himself for his contract year next year, thats chump change considering the numbers he's on pace for this year. Seriously? Might be chump change for a 1st round pick w/ great measurables who puts up the same numbers but Heinicke is not assured of the same demand from the marketplace. For a guy who was on the couch last year, getting a $10M/yr offer for 3 years with significant guarantees is life-changing money and while he could conceivably bet on himself, he'd have to have reeeeeaaaaal balls to turn that **** down. Like, more balls in the boardroom than on the field. 😉 I just don't think he could afford to turn down $10M/yr in the offseason assuming he doesn't turn into Brady (which he won't). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 4 minutes ago, CapsSkins said: I just don't think he could afford to turn down $10M/yr in the offseason assuming he doesn't turn into Brady (which he won't). 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 6 minutes ago, CapsSkins said: Seriously? Might be chump change for a 1st round pick w/ great measurables who puts up the same numbers but Heinicke is not assured of the same demand from the marketplace. For a guy who was on the couch last year, getting a $10M/yr offer for 3 years with significant guarantees is life-changing money and while he could conceivably bet on himself, he'd have to have reeeeeaaaaal balls to turn that **** down. Like, more balls in the boardroom than on the field. 😉 I just don't think he could afford to turn down $10M/yr in the offseason assuming he doesn't turn into Brady (which he won't). Oh hes definitely the type to bet on himself, and thats what we love about him. : ) Watch the stats going into a UFA season next year, thats going to be his bargaining chip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Great story -- at least makes watching the offense fun. And he's making the offensive line look damn good, which is not always the case with QBs who can run. His pocket presence is outstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Renegade7 said: Brees is a perfect example of someone people counted as limited and jus kept getting better after he left San Diego. I'm maintaining he arwnt 100% sure on what we have in Taylor yet, but I expect him to improve, not regress if he goes into next season as the starter. Agreed. If the job is still his at the end of the year then he will calm his feet and that will translate to better accuracy and velocity. There's still probably a ceiling that is lower than top tier QBs, but he can maximize what he does have with game reps and confidence. (He does jump around a lot in the pocket and he pats the ball. Get rid of both of those habits. They're wasted motions and cost precious tenths of seconds.) He's still relatively young as a starter and the game will slow down for him eventually. (Scary that it hasn't yet and he's still producing.) He'll start seeing what the defense is doing faster and that will help him to throw players open and manipulate coverage. That said, I would really love to see him maximize all the other little mental things that make an NFL QB that much better. Mastering protections, presnap adjustments, using different cadence to keep dline on their heels, moving defenders with his facemask (they can't see eyes from that far), etc. He's supersmart and if I were his friend I'd encourage him to maximize every mental part of his game. That is what makes #17 so much fun to root for! He's never satisfied. Edited October 5, 2021 by ThomasRoane 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODU AGGIE Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 (edited) 47 minutes ago, mistertim said: Unless Heinicke suddenly turns into Mahomes and starts absolutely shredding good defenses on a regular basis, I can't possibly see him demanding $25 million per year after 1 season. If they really like what they saw at he end of the season, I could see them offering something closer to $10-15 per year after this season. If Heinicke doesn't like that I suppose he could bet on himself not only continuing to play well but also staying healthy for another season and roll the dice. He'd also have to bet that other teams would be willing to offer him a massive payday. Which might not necessarily be the case. I know it's not the end-all-be-all, but the fact that he lacks many of the physical talent traits that teams tend to look for will work against him there. If they offered that 10-15 after this season it would probably be smart for him to lock in a deal now. That's a ****load more than he was making and he wouldn't have to worry about getting hurt and then never getting a decent contract. TM, my stated assumption was a playoff game win. Heinicke's agent, Chris Cabott, is one of the best. He got Mahomes his $450M 10 year contract extension. If TH takes the Team to a playoff win, I firmly believe Cabott will not settle for a $10M or $15M contract for Heinicke. You might be right, but I can easily see him negotiating something over $20M. Let's both just hope that is something the FO has to deal with next year. Edited October 5, 2021 by ODU AGGIE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan93 Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 The best analysis I can make of Heinicke is Kurt Warner. When Vermeil made him the backup to Trent Green, remember him crying, when Trent got hurt. If I’m not mistaken Warner was bagging groceries prior to making the team. 10+ years later, he became a hall of famer. I AM NOT saying Taylor is gonna be anywhere near that! After all the qbs we have gone through over 25 years I understand why people wanna lock him up or think he will be the savior but cmon we should not be talking about an extension. Anyway one of the reasons Warner succeeded was he had a lightning quick release. He threw in anticipation. Of course it helps he had 3 hall of fame receivers and running back. Throwing in anticipation is something Heinicke can work on to help with accuracy and not having the strongest arm. For all the naysayers can we just root on the guy. Let’s see if he can improve on his overall mechanics. He’s already learned not to take big hits while scrambling. Hell RG3 didn’t even learn how to properly slide and he was a better athlete than Taylor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 4 minutes ago, skinsfan93 said: The best analysis I can make of Heinicke is Kurt Warner. When Vermeil made him the backup to Trent Green, remember him crying, when Trent got hurt. If I’m not mistaken Warner was bagging groceries prior to making the team. 10+ years later, he became a hall of famer. I AM NOT saying Taylor is gonna be anywhere near that! After all the qbs we have gone through over 25 years I understand why people wanna lock him up or think he will be the savior but cmon we should not be talking about an extension. Anyway one of the reasons Warner succeeded was he had a lightning quick release. He threw in anticipation. Of course it helps he had 3 hall of fame receivers and running back. Throwing in anticipation is something Heinicke can work on to help with accuracy and not having the strongest arm. For all the naysayers can we just root on the guy. Let’s see if he can improve on his overall mechanics. He’s already learned not to take big hits while scrambling. Hell RG3 didn’t even learn how to properly slide and he was a better athlete than Taylor. Can people please stop assuming that anyone who has questions or concerns about Heinicke is not rooting for him? As far as Warner...meh. I personally don't believe he should be in the HoF. He was a good QB but he wasn't elite. He only had 2 elite years in his career, and they were with what was probably the single most offensively stacked team in NFL history along with a (then) cutting edge offensive system. After that he only had 1 year where he was anything above decent. I think his HoF nod is more about his story (which is pretty amazing) than it is his play over his whole career. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilberMarshall Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 I like what I see of Taylor. He is showing growth and improvement game in and game out. Need him to keep improving as a game manager with some daring ability. I know it comes at a cost... also need him to decide early to go for the checkdowns before he gets his backs killed. They are usually open early enough and he can use them to pad stats like Capn Kurt. Above all, it will extend drives. Get those DBs to bite down so the deeper routes can open up. I like that he is coachable. See the improvements. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morneblade Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Just gonna pop some measurable out here. Taylor Heinicke is a pretty darned good athlete. Also also was a pretty good punter. Pre-draft measurables Height Weight 40-yard dash 10-yard split 20-yard split 20-yard shuttle Three-cone drill Vertical jump Broad jump 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m) 214 lb (97 kg) 4.62 s 1.59 s 2.55 s 4.21 s 6.96 s 35 in (0.89 m) 10 ft 3 in (3.12 m) All values from Pro Day[22] 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanskins Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 On 10/3/2021 at 5:44 PM, Spaceman Spiff said: I'm just happy that we've got someone who can make bull**** plays. For years and years every time Fox goes to a game break and Terry's like "Over here in New Orleans we've got THIS PLAY...." and it's some ****ing miracle ass **** that makes NO sense, some quarterback throwing from his ass to a wide receiver who's inexplicably open and rumbles for 40 yards and a TD... And I'm always like "Damn, why can't we have THAT?" We're always the team on the other end of it, standing around with our dicks in our hands while the other teams QB threw it from his ass and we whiffed on like 305196 tackles while their guy goes in for the score. No, he's not perfect, yes he's made some dangerous throws but we've won two games this year because of him. I'll tell you guys something else, a lot of you act like you were born on 3rd base when it comes to being football fans. Just because some of you can remember the 80s you act like **** ain't good enough, completely ignoring precisely how ****ty this franchise has been since the mid 90s. I'm not saying Heinicke is the savior and he's not perfect but he's fun and for 3 out of 4 games this year we've had a chance to win with him at the helm. From what I can tell most of us who remember the 70s n 80s love this guy…let’s face it even in the 70s n 80s we didn’t have “elite” qbs… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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