Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[JoggingGod]

8 minutes ago, heyholetsgogrant said:

I bet a bidding war opens up, and for a guy who was studying for college finals and hadn't started a game in years could be making starter money...unbelievable. Just shows you how ridiculous the QB position has gotten.  

Lmao he's not getting starter money. He's getting signed as backup competition either here or somewhere else.

[kingdaddy]

43 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

I cannot believe that anyone would want Cam Newton here!  Ron has already rejected him!  The guy played like complete **** at NE with BB who can gets all he can out of people. Why in the world would you want a highly flawed, on the other side of his career QB that could not keep his starting job last year on a team with really no other option?? ANd he was never a good passer to begin with and that's what we need. Mobility is a plus but you have to be able to make throws, something Cam has never been great at. I have not looked after this year - but something like a 62% completion rate lifetime?  

 

C'mon people, you will never get the Cam of 6 yrs ago. He is done, finished! Washed up and should not be brought in here even for a look unless it's to get water for people. And no he is NOT better than anything we have already. Not at this point in his career. Not saying we have the answer in house - I do not think we do. But he is not getting any closer. 

 

Everyone, all together now:

 

I don't know of anyone who WANTS Cam in Washington but I believe he will be a strong consideration for RR and here's why: Stability, cost and familiarity with the offense. Personally, if I were RR I would talk to Cam and tell him that we have a role for him but it is not an every down role. He would be a backup QB with a role in the wildcat and in redzone  packages. Cam's legs would be my vision, not his arm. The starting QB job would go to Allen or Heinicke or possibly even a rookie at some point in the season. Cam would be INSURANCE in case next year plays out like this year did with injuries and unknowns. Cam would also be told that he would have an opportunity to play more if he proves that he is better in this offense than his competition. He will truly need to bet on himself and accept that the staff has a big role for him, just not what he's used to. He would be given an incentive laiden contract along the lines of a backup but with clauses in it that reward him for produciton on the field. This would be a true change for Cam but also an opportunity to win a Super Bowl and to potentially be the starter.

Simply put, I would sign Cam as insurance and as a wildcat QB, but only if he bought in and I knew he would be a good teammate. Hopefully you all can understand that I believe RR really likes Cam and trusts him. RR also needs to stabilize the QB position and Cam won't cost anything other than money. I could see Cam fitting into this culture and doing well in a defined, limited role. He can still run and is big....the redzone and short yardage is still a productive place for Cam Newton.

[zCommander]

54 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Heinicke's ex-college coach on 980, he said that Scott Turner told Heinicke at the end of the game that he wants him back.  But Heinicke's old coach also said his agent wants to keep an open mind because he can hit the open market since he's an UFA.   Heinicke though loves Ron.   The Old Dominion coach said just in general players love playing for Ron.

 

I thought I read somewhere that he was a RFA. No?

[HigSkin]

1 minute ago, zskins said:

 

I thought I read somewhere that he was a RFA. No?

No, I think you probably saw that about Kyle Allen.  He's a RFA

[goskins10]

3 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

I don't know of anyone who WANTS Cam in Washington but I believe he will be a strong consideration for RR and here's why: Stability, cost and familiarity with the offense. Personally, if I were RR I would talk to Cam and tell him that we have a role for him but it is not an every down role. He would be a backup QB with a role in the wildcat and in redzone  packages. Cam's legs would be my vision, not his arm. The starting QB job would go to Allen or Heinicke or possibly even a rookie at some point in the season. Cam would be INSURANCE in case next year plays out like this year did with injuries and unknowns. Cam would also be told that he would have an opportunity to play more if he proves that he is better in this offense than his competition. He will truly need to bet on himself and accept that the staff has a big role for him, just not what he's used to. He would be given an incentive laiden contract along the lines of a backup but with clauses in it that reward him for produciton on the field. This would be a true change for Cam but also an opportunity to win a Super Bowl and to potentially be the starter.

Simply put, I would sign Cam as insurance and as a wildcat QB, but only if he bought in and I knew he would be a good teammate. Hopefully you all can understand that I believe RR really likes Cam and trusts him. RR also needs to stabilize the QB position and Cam won't cost anything other than money. I could see Cam fitting into this culture and doing well in a defined, limited role. He can still run and is big....the redzone and short yardage is still a productive place for Cam Newton.

 

 

This is not personal (felt compelled to add this as many seem a bit on edge and are taking things more personal than normal - if not great) but I could not disagree more with pretty much everything in your post. He would NOT provide any stability at QB. He is just this side of useless as a QB. Did you watch any of NEs games? Or the end of his time in Car? Yea, he started off nice with NE for a few games. But once people figured him out they shut him down and he turned into a TO machine. I would hope no one would hold up how he did against the Jets. We can get that from a rookie who at least has a chance of developing. He can't throw and he is slowing down as a runner significantly. And every QB coming in here would feel like they were looking over their shoulder. He is not at all familiar with the offence. He may know some parts of it but this is Scott's offence not his dads. Not sure ther is anything that suggests he could produce in this offence, especially with limited tools - ie he can't throw accurately and feet are slowing down. 

 

Most importantly he takes up a roster spot from someone who at least has the potential of being developed. And no, I do not believe Ron R trusts Cam at QB He had a chance to bring him in last year for cheap knowing we needed a QB. Ok, you could maybe argue he was looking for a starting role, something Ron could not promise him. But from what I read he was not interested at all, for any price. I lived in NC and i can tell you Ron and Cam butted heads a lot, not jsut when he was younger but later too. And not just normal back and forth. Ron got plenty pissed at his childish antics (not sure he likes him but I do not know either personally so in fairness I would not know for sure either way). 

 

I do NOT see Cam fitting into or helping this culture. To me he would be a significant step backwards and I would be very disappointed in Ron if he brought Cam in. Honestly I would roll with the 3 we have (assuming Alex is gone - 4 if he stays) or replace S Montez) while still looking for a franchise QB. I do not think our long term solution is on the team but we have enough to continue growing while we look. Brining in Cam would feel like a desperation move when it's not needed. 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

Let's assume Smith is released and we take the dead cap hit of $10m. If you bring back Kyle Allen and Taylor Heinecke, they're unlikely to combine for more than $2-3m in annual contracts. Draft someone at #19 (hopefully Lance falls) ... and you're talking about a very, very, cheap QB room both this year and into the future. With the already enviable cap position, you don't spend draft capital OR $$ capital on the position, allowing you go spend up elsewhere in FA.

 

My votes for LB and WR. I'd prefer to add Curtis Samuel and draft another WR in R2 who falls. Add some depth along the OL in middle parts of the draft, but I think the OL is in decent shape.

 

I would consider drafting an edge as well, to ensure you aren't losing too much depth at the position since Kerrigan and Anderson will be gone.

[markmills67]

29 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Let's assume Smith is released and we take the dead cap hit of $10m. If you bring back Kyle Allen and Taylor Heinecke, they're unlikely to combine for more than $2-3m in annual contracts. Draft someone at #19 (hopefully Lance falls) ... and you're talking about a very, very, cheap QB room both this year and into the future. With the already enviable cap position, you don't spend draft capital OR $$ capital on the position, allowing you go spend up elsewhere in FA.

 

My votes for LB and WR. I'd prefer to add Curtis Samuel and draft another WR in R2 who falls. Add some depth along the OL in middle parts of the draft, but I think the OL is in decent shape.

 

I would consider drafting an edge as well, to ensure you aren't losing too much depth at the position since Kerrigan and Anderson will be gone.

It's a 10m Dead Cap hit for Smith, but we clear around 13m cap space by releasing him also, I would add Collins to the release list, Big Dead cap hit but around 5m cap savings, with just these to moves we get to around 63m cap space, if I've read it right. 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

9 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

It's a 10m Dead Cap hit for Smith, but we clear around 13m cap space by releasing him also, I would add Collins to the release list, Big Dead cap hit but around 5m cap savings, with just these to moves we get to around 63m cap space, if I've read it right. 

 

Here's what I can gather from OTC. They're projecting a $176m salary cap. WFT rolls over $22m from 2020 to give us a "cap" of $198m. Cutting Smith frees up about $14m and gives us $57.3m in cap space with those assumptions.

 

There is some relative unknown about where the cap will come down, but 176m is the most conservative I have seen. Even if it ends up being $186m or something a bit higher, it would give us even more room to work with.

 

It'll be enough space to bring back Darby, Scherff and Moreau (if we want to bring him back cheap) ... and still be able to get 2 premier FAs (and some nice additional pieces).

 

It will all start with QB. If we roll into the draft with Heinecke + Allen ... then I gotta think #19 (or even a trade up) is in the cards to get a QB to groom. Meaning we need to be spending that FA $$ on LB and WR.

[wit33]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

This is not personal (felt compelled to add this as many seem a bit on edge and are taking things more personal than normal - if not great) but I could not disagree more with pretty much everything in your post. He would NOT provide any stability at QB. He is just this side of useless as a QB. Did you watch any of NEs games? Or the end of his time in Car? Yea, he started off nice with NE for a few games. But once people figured him out they shut him down and he turned into a TO machine. I would hope no one would hold up how he did against the Jets. We can get that from a rookie who at least has a chance of developing. He can't throw and he is slowing down as a runner significantly. And every QB coming in here would feel like they were looking over their shoulder. He is not at all familiar with the offence. He may know some parts of it but this is Scott's offence not his dads. Not sure ther is anything that suggests he could produce in this offence, especially with limited tools - ie he can't throw accurately and feet are slowing down. 

 

Most importantly he takes up a roster spot from someone who at least has the potential of being developed. And no, I do not believe Ron R trusts Cam at QB He had a chance to bring him in last year for cheap knowing we needed a QB. Ok, you could maybe argue he was looking for a starting role, something Ron could not promise him. But from what I read he was not interested at all, for any price. I lived in NC and i can tell you Ron and Cam butted heads a lot, not jsut when he was younger but later too. And not just normal back and forth. Ron got plenty pissed at his childish antics (not sure he likes him but I do not know either personally so in fairness I would not know for sure either way). 

 

I do NOT see Cam fitting into or helping this culture. To me he would be a significant step backwards and I would be very disappointed in Ron if he brought Cam in. Honestly I would roll with the 3 we have (assuming Alex is gone - 4 if he stays) or replace S Montez) while still looking for a franchise QB. I do not think our long term solution is on the team but we have enough to continue growing while we look. Brining in Cam would feel like a desperation move when it's not needed. 

Brady looked bad a lot last year as well and that was with a healthy Edelman. New England arguably has the worst collection of skill position talent in the NFL. Brady and the bunch survived last year by having a league worst schedule and a defense that dominated weak competition. I don’t say this to compare Newton and Brady, Brady is the GOAT, Newton is nowhere close, but both played below average (Newton more so than Brady) for a great deal of the season with similar talent. 
 

I don’t love Newton, just would understand and get behind it if that was the move Ron chose to make. If he’s out on Cam, then I could care less. Also, I believe Newton would be a great culture fit, so that obviously is a huge plus you don’t agree with. Lastly, I believe he displayed this season he’s still elite as a runner. 
 

The hope would be Turner creates a scheme to get the best out of Newton in the short pass game and they become a dominant rushing team. With that said, I’m definitely hedging by saying I’m not beating the drum that this needs to take place.

Edited January 11, 2021 by wit33

[JamesMadisonSkins]

33 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

It will all start with QB. If we roll into the draft with Heinecke + Allen ... then I gotta think #19 (or even a trade up) is in the cards to get a QB to groom. Meaning we need to be spending that FA $$ on LB and WR.

 

To quote myself, if we bring back Scherff and Darby and use FA to get a legit WR (Samuel, Robinson, Davis, etc.) as well as a legit LB to plug into the defense, then I really think the draft can be BPA. I'd be interested in TE1/2, WR, QB and OT early and S, LB, CB in the mid-rounds.

 

Of course, if Dak Prescott hits FA and we are able to sign him to a monster deal that changes quite a bit. In that case, we can probably still bring back Darby and Scherff, but the draft will become more important to nail down some of the other spots like WR, TE, OT, LB and Safety. But by taking QB out of the mix going into the draft you really allow yourself to go BPA at positions with substantial depth. I would think #19 would go to a WR that falls.

Edited January 11, 2021 by JamesMadisonSkins

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, HigSkin said:

No, I think you probably saw that about Kyle Allen.  He's a RFA

Kyle Allen is an ERFA 

Heiniche is a RFA. 

[goskins10]

26 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Brady looked bad a lot last year as well and that was with a healthy Edelman. New England arguably has the worst collection of skill position talent in the NFL. Brady and the bunch survived last year by having a league worst schedule and a defense that dominated weak competition. I don’t say this to compare Newton and Brady, Brady is the GOAT, Newton is nowhere close, but both played below average (Newton more so than Brady) for a great deal of the season with similar talent. 
 

I don’t love Newton, just would understand and get behind it if that was the move Ron chose to make. If he’s out on Cam, then I could care less. Also, I believe Newton would be a great culture fit, so that obviously is a huge plus you don’t agree with. Lastly, I believe he displayed this season he’s still elite as a runner. 
 

The hope would be Turner creates a scheme to get the best out of Newton in the short pass game and they become a dominant rushing team. With that said, I’m definitely hedging by saying I’m not beating the drum that this needs to take place.

 

What makes you think he is a cultural fit? Honest question. I believe he is not since I was in N Car just about the entire time he was there and there was always some kind of childishness he was getting into. Nothing illegal jsut stupid things he said and did that make you scratch your head. I never saw teammates stand up that much for him - and in fairness they didn't complain about him either. I just have seen nothing to suggest he would be that great a cultural fit. 

 

And no, sorry he is not "elite" runner. He is still a decent runner, maybe even really good for a QB. But elite? C'mon there is nothing to support that? But even if he is, if that's the best attribute for your QB? We need a QB not a runner unless you plan to put him at RB? Is he signed up for that? He could be a decent 4th down back but we have that and he would be way more expensive. 

 

I would feel differently if at one point in his career he had been a really good throwing QB - even if it jsut complimented his running. But without his wheels he is barely average. And with those skills diminishing - and they will go even faster the older he gets - he is just not who we need here. 

 

Not going on after this. I get it some people are OK with it and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am not interested in him at all. Neither position is changing and we have no real say anyway. So will not derial anymore than I have already on one guy - who honestly it's very unlikely he ends up here. Like I said, Ron had his shot and turned it down. 

 

In fairness, I m not interested in any other veteran unless it's purely as a backup except Deshaun Watson. He is the prime of his career and is playing at a very high level. 

 

 

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

3 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Kyle Allen is an ERFA 

Heiniche is a RFA. 

 

Per OvertheCap if you RFA Heinecke at a non-round tender it's something like $2.2m ... and Kyle Allen as a ERFA tender would be $750k.

 

So I think if you want to bring both of them back you're looking at $3m APY between the two ... still a bargain relative to the position, and helps considering you'll have about $10m in dead cap allocated to Smith. So really, if you draft a R1 QB and pay them $4m out of the #19 slot you're talking about $17m in cap allocation for 3 QBs and a retired/cut Smith.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

Something of importance to mention. If you just take what is on the books right now ... if you cut Smith your 2021 Cap space goes up to an estimated $57 million. But 2022 ($133m) and 2023 ($177m) also look very, very good. Obviously this year we are well positioned in the Top 5 for cap space, but we can put a lot of money into future years as well.

 

Hypothetical off-season:

RG Scherff: 4 years, $60m

CB Darby: 3 years, $36m

WR Samuel: 4 years, $52m

LB David: 3 years, $43m

QB Heinecke: 1 year, $2.2m

QB Allen: 1 year, $800k

 

After these moves, you'd have $11m in cap space remaining for 2021 ... $81m for 2022 and $118m for 2023

That's a lot of $$ in future years to keep guys around like Allen and Payne ... I have no clue if we'd go spend big on a guy like David at this point, but I wanted to add two premier outside FAs to the mix to see where it left us. I didn't back-load the deals too much either, so the 2021 cap hits were fairly close to each player's APY, so there'd be more than enough room to keep this year's cap hit lower ...

[Thinking Skins]

16 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

Per OvertheCap if you RFA Heinecke at a non-round tender it's something like $2.2m ... and Kyle Allen as a ERFA tender would be $750k.

 

So I think if you want to bring both of them back you're looking at $3m APY between the two ... still a bargain relative to the position, and helps considering you'll have about $10m in dead cap allocated to Smith. So really, if you draft a R1 QB and pay them $4m out of the #19 slot you're talking about $17m in cap allocation for 3 QBs and a retired/cut Smith.

Thats a deal. 

 

But If I'm looking forward (no real reason for Allen or Heinicke to be thinking this way) I'd try to secure them for 3 year deals so that we can have some value at the position. Even still, if we can secure them at those prices, we'll have the position relatively set for the coming year and they wouldn't demand 15 mil unless they balled out in 2021 in which case we just pay them. 

 

What Heinicke showed me Saturday is that even when the defense (or other offense weapons) aren't showing up, he can keep us competitive. Allen hasn't shown me that. That's why I'd favor Heinicke right now but we'll see. 

[HigSkin]

39 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Kyle Allen is an ERFA 

Heiniche is a RFA. 

 

I totally confused.  Spotrac has him as an UFA and he said this morning on his interview with The Junkies he and his agent would decide what they're doing when free agency opens up?

 

[Thinking Skins]

@HigSkin, thats interesting. I think that he said he's a RFA on the Sports Junkies today but honestly I'm not even certain about that any more. I'll just say I hope we sign him. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[CapsSkins]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Read between the lines here, folks: we're not trading for Stafford or Ryan. An open competition means no flashy acquisition. Heinicke will likely come back and get a meaningful share of 1st team reps in OTAs and Training Camp. That's all the Heinicke Hive is asking for: a real shot. The rest is up to Taylor!

[HigSkin]

17 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

@HigSkin, thats interesting. I think that he said he's a RFA on the Sports Junkies today but honestly I'm not even certain about that any more. I'll just say I hope we sign him. 

I don't know what to believe.  The guy is such an unknown, I guess those sites don't know either.  LOL

[Skinsinparadise]

I listened to the full interivew.  I think Ron did a nice job of dodging the QB questions that were thrown his way.

 

A.  The Heinicke part was pushed at him.  Rivera was complementary but wasn't effusive about Taylor but definitely came off like he wants him back. 

B.  He was complementary yet vague on Alex and the future with him

C.  They pushed whether he prefers a mobile or pocket passer and he said their offense can work well with both, citing Philip Rivers thrived in a similar offense and he isn't mobile.  But at the same time said he didn't want to play Alex on Sunday in part because of his lack of mobility.

 

I usually try to find some nugget to run with but if you listen to the whole interview Rivera really was vague about the QB spot where I didn't leave with a strong feel. 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[CapsSkins]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I listened to the full interivew.  I think Ron did a nice job of dodging the QB questions that were thrown his way.

 

A.  The Heinicke part was pushed.  Rivera was complementary but wasn't effusive about Tyler

B.  He was complementary yet vague on Alex and the future with him

C.  They pushed whether he prefers a mobile or pocket passer and he said their offense can work well with both, citing Philip Rivers thrived in a similar offense and he isn't mobile.  But at the same time said he didn't want to play Alex on Sunday in part because of his lack of mobility.

 

I usually try to find some nugget to run with but if you listen to the whole interview Rivera really was vague about the QB spot where I didn't leave with a strong feel. 

 

 

I think they roll with Heinicke, Allen and either a draft pick like Lance or a vet like Tyrod or Rivers. Open competition in camp, best man wins the starting job.

 

I think it's clear Rivera feels burned by having anointed Haskins and is determined not to do that again. That means no one is coming here who would be assured the starting job. 

 

I imagine Turner will bang on the table for Heinicke and make sure he's back. The staff clearly likes Allen. Draft will determine the 3rd spot. Montez back on PS.  

 

Oh and Alex is done. Can barely function and his cap hit is better used elsewhere anyway. Rivera is being diplomatic but it makes zero sense to pay $25M against the salary cap for One Legged Alex on the roster next year. But that situation will be handled in its own time with grace.

Edited January 11, 2021 by CapsSkins

[Skinsinparadise]

Let me amend that the only thing he was clear as a bell on was it was a mistake to even dabble the way he did with Haskins.   He shouldn't have just handed him the starting job.  He said he blew that one and will learn from it.   

 

 

6 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

I think they roll with Heinicke, Allen and either a draft pick like Lance or a vet like Tyrod or Rivers. Open competition in camp, best man wins the starting job.

 

I think it's clear Rivera feels burned by having anointed Haskins and is determined not to do that again. That means no one is coming here who would be assured the starting job. 

 

I imagine Turner will bang on the table for Heinicke and make sure he's back. The staff clearly likes Allen. Draft will determine the 3rd spot. Montez back on PS.  

 

I can see that.  You here are advancing really every theory being debated here.  Trading up in the draft.  Taking one of the bigger FA's on the market at QB, taking a more modest FA on the market at QB.    Only thing you don't mention is trading for a QB.

 

My guess is eveything is on the table and they aren't ruling anything out just based on theory.   I am guessing it all depends on what's on the menu. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Skinsinparadise