Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Burgundy Yoda]

I think people need to re-watch Cousins again if they are thinking Fitzpatrick can be better than him. Its just a flat out unrealistic take. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[Warhead36]

5 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

I think people need to re-watch Cousins again if they are thinking Fitzpatrick can be better than him. Its just a flat out unrealistic take. 

Agreed. Cousins on this team LAST YEAR would have gotten us to 10 wins. Cousins on this year's team and we're probably no worse than 3rd best team in the NFC(and if the Packers trade Rodgers, it'd be 2nd).

[mistertim]

13 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

So the fact that Tampa threw caution to the wind and got TB AT 43 years old has no relevance? 

 

It has a little, but not much. Tampa didn't have to give up any draft picks for Brady. They just had to give him a big 1 year contract. If he truly was done and they could tell, they drop him after 1 year and move on. For Rodgers we're talking about giving up at minimum 2 1st round picks plus a huge multi-year contract. 

 

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Agreed. Cousins on this team LAST YEAR would have gotten us to 10 wins. Cousins on this year's team and we're probably no worse than 3rd best team in the NFC(and if the Packers trade Rodgers, it'd be 2nd).

 

Cousins was on a 2018 Vikings team that was much more talented than ours was last season (they had a top 10 defense plus an offense with tons of weapons) and he went 8-7.

Edited May 13, 2021 by mistertim

[Burgundy Yoda]

8 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Cousins was on a 2018 Vikings team that was much more talented than ours was last season (they had a top 10 defense plus an offense with tons of weapons) and he went 8-7.

Fitzpatrick has never made the playoffs, that take on the previous page saying Fitzpatrick can be Cousins or better is so bad.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[IrepDC]

If we are trading for Watson, the Texans are more likely to do it after June 1. Here are the cap numbers if they make the trade before then vs after. The far right gives an idea of how much he'd count against the cap for us each year. They pass on more of the cap hit by waiting.

 

 

[mistertim]

9 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Fitzpatrick has never made the playoffs, that take on the previous page saying Fitzpatrick can be Cousins or better is so bad.

 

I dunno. With the way Fitz has played recently I see them both around the top 15 or so, with Kirk probably rated a little higher. (IIRC PFF had Kirk ranked #14 after last season)

 

But it's also hard to make a direct comparison because they're such different QBs with different strengths and weaknesses, and different playing styles.

[ExoDus84]

We're not trading for Watson, nor should anybody. Do we really want a sexual predator as our lead presence in the locker room?

 

I don't care how talented he is; let the Texans deal with it.

[Burgundy Yoda]

20 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I dunno. With the way Fitz has played recently I see them both around the top 15 or so, with Kirk probably rated a little higher. (IIRC PFF had Kirk ranked #14 after last season)

 

But it's also hard to make a direct comparison because they're such different QBs with different strengths and weaknesses, and different playing styles.

Cousins (to me) is one of the most accurate QBs in the NFL. Throws a beautiful ball with a tight spiral, good velocity and trajectory on his passes, he just can't improvise for ****. The guy puts up numbers and can move the ball down the field, the problem is when he plays difficult defenses with a confusing scheme he struggles because he can't get out of the pocket and make plays when things start breaking down. I also noticed his drop-back is just insanely slow, it looks like every time he drops back he's about to trip over his own feet. 

 

But really he's more accurate than Fitz, less turnover prone, has a stronger arm, has been more productive than Fitzpatrick in every season he's started. 

 

I'll give Fitz a firm edge on improv but that's it, there isn't anything that I think Fitz does better than him besides that. Maybe footwork?

Edited May 13, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[skinny21]

15 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I dunno. With the way Fitz has played recently I see them both around the top 15 or so, with Kirk probably rated a little higher. (IIRC PFF had Kirk ranked #14 after last season)

 

But it's also hard to make a direct comparison because they're such different QBs with different strengths and weaknesses, and different playing styles.

I see Fitz as a top 20 qb, maybe top 15 just looking at his last few years.  Cousins a top 15, borderline top 10.  Of course, Cousins had Jackson/Garçon (and Chris Thompson), and then Thielan/Diggs (and Cook).  Not sure Fitzpatrick has had a comparable group around him.

2 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Cousins (to me) is one of the most accurate QBs in the NFL. Throws a beautiful ball with a tight spiral, good velocity and trajectory on his passes, he just can't improvise for ****. The guy puts up numbers and can move the ball down the field, the problem is when he plays difficult defenses with a confusing scheme he struggles because he can't get out of the pocket and make plays when things start breaking down. I also noticed his drop-back is just insanely slow, it looks like every time he drops back he's about to trip over his own feet. 

 

But really he's more accurate than Fitz, less turnover prone, has a stronger arm, has been more productive than Fitzpatrick in every season he's started. 

 

I'll give Fitz a firm edge on improv but that's it, there isn't anything that I think Fitz does better than him besides that. 

I pretty much agree with all of this.  I will say that Fitzpatrick will also take more chances, which is a pro/con deal.  One potentially huge difference in Fitzpatrick’s favor is leadership.  He gets guys to buy in, provides faith and confidence.  You could argue this in turn makes the team around him better, while Cousins strikes me as a guy that can match the level of play around him, but won’t necessarily make his teammates better.  I’m looking forward to Fitz probably having the best team he’s ever had around him.  Turner is still a question mark, but the talent, coaching, and culture are there.  This is a great situation for him.  We’ll see if it bears fruit.

Sidenote - I think this team would be a good fit for Cousins.  We have some good leaders, an offensive style seems like it would mesh pretty well with him, and a defense that just needs some consistency on the other side of the ball.  Conversely, I have some concerns that Fitzpatrick might not hit his outlets as often, but he does fit the vertical aspect of the Coryell system (and will be helped by Terry/Curtis/Dyami/Dax).

[Burgundy Yoda]

15 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I pretty much agree with all of this.  I will say that Fitzpatrick will also take more chances, which is a pro/con deal.  One potentially huge difference in Fitzpatrick’s favor is leadership.  He gets guys to buy in, provides faith and confidence.  You could argue this in turn makes the team around him better, while Cousins strikes me as a guy that can match the level of play around him, but won’t necessarily make his teammates better.  I’m looking forward to Fitz probably having the best team he’s ever had around him.  Turner is still a question mark, but the talent, coaching, and culture are there.  This is a great situation for him.  We’ll see if it bears fruit.

Sidenote - I think this team would be a good fit for Cousins.  We have some good leaders, an offensive style seems like it would mesh pretty well with him, and a defense that just needs some consistency on the other side of the ball.  Conversely, I have some concerns that Fitzpatrick might not hit his outlets as often, but he does fit the vertical aspect of the Coryell system (and will be helped by Terry/Curtis/Dyami/Dax).

Doh, I definitely forgot to add leadership in Fitzpatrick's favor. You can also put me in on the "Fitzpatrick is much more likely to be a SB winning QB" category as well. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[mistertim]

38 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Cousins (to me) is one of the most accurate QBs in the NFL. Throws a beautiful ball with a tight spiral, good velocity and trajectory on his passes, he just can't improvise for ****. The guy puts up numbers and can move the ball down the field, the problem is when he plays difficult defenses with a confusing scheme he struggles because he can't get out of the pocket and make plays when things start breaking down. I also noticed his drop-back is just insanely slow, it looks like every time he drops back he's about to trip over his own feet. 

 

But really he's more accurate than Fitz, less turnover prone, has a stronger arm, has been more productive than Fitzpatrick in every season he's started. 

 

I'll give Fitz a firm edge on improv but that's it, there isn't anything that I think Fitz does better than him besides that. Maybe footwork?

 

Yeah I don't really disagree with any of this. Though in watching Fitz I'd say that he's also very accurate, especially over the last couple of seasons. Yeah it might not always reflect in his raw completion percentage (though he was at 68.5 last season), but I think that's also influenced by the fact that he's way more likely than Kirk to throw 50/50 balls...Kirk generally seemed very loath to do that.

 

As you alluded to, Kirk can absolutely kill it when he's playing within a structured system and is in a rhythm. But once that gets thrown off things can go downhill fast because he's not a good improviser and gets flustered when things break down. That and tending to not play well in big games have been knocks on him for a while.

 

Again, I don't really think it's easy to do an apples to apples comparison to such different QBs. 

[ILikeBilly]

3 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Agreed. Cousins on this team LAST YEAR would have gotten us to 10 wins. Cousins on this year's team and we're probably no worse than 3rd best team in the NFC EAST.

Fixed it for you 😉

 

In our playoff games vs Tampa last year, if Fitz is the Tampa QB, we lose.  If Kirk is the Tampa QB, we win.  I am so glad he is gone.  I would have zero hope of winning games in the playoffs with Kirk as QB.  If healthy, I think we will have a top 10 offense this year.

Edited May 13, 2021 by ILikeBilly

[Dark Acre]

28 minutes ago, ILikeBilly said:

Fixed it for you 😉

 

In our playoff games vs Tampa last year, if Fitz is the Tampa QB, we lose.  If Kirk is the QB, we win.  I am so glad he is gone.  I would have zero hope of winning games in the playoffs with Kirk as QB.  If healthy, I think we will have a top 10 offense this year.

So what you are saying is that Kirk will get you to the second round of the playoffs but no farther so you'd rather lose in the first round with Fitz to get a better draft pick.  That or you think all white QBs look alike, thus confusing Kirt and Fitz (hint: Cousins doesn't have the guts to throw down a beard like Fitz) because what you wrote makes no sense otherwise.

[Llevron]

2 hours ago, ExoDus84 said:

We're not trading for Watson, nor should anybody. Do we really want a sexual predator as our lead presence in the locker room?

 

I don't care how talented he is; let the Texans deal with it.

 

Imagine, if true, the **** he and Dan will be accused of in 10 years. 

[Burgundy Yoda]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah I don't really disagree with any of this. Though in watching Fitz I'd say that he's also very accurate, especially over the last couple of seasons. Yeah it might not always reflect in his raw completion percentage (though he was at 68.5 last season), but I think that's also influenced by the fact that he's way more likely than Kirk to throw 50/50 balls...Kirk generally seemed very loath to do that.

 

As you alluded to, Kirk can absolutely kill it when he's playing within a structured system and is in a rhythm. But once that gets thrown off things can go downhill fast because he's not a good improviser and gets flustered when things break down. That and tending to not play well in big games have been knocks on him for a while.

 

Again, I don't really think it's easy to do an apples to apples comparison to such different QBs. 

I think Fitz is pretty accurate, I just think Cousins is a tier or two above him. I also think Fitz can be the commander of a SB team while Cousins will more than likely mentally fold on a playoff run. I seriously think Fitz is a lightning in a bottle type QB if he gets to the playoffs, but it's our journey there that is going to be tough and I'd rather have someone like Kirk breeze us through the season if it was possible. 

 

Fitz seems impenetrable in the aspect that he just doesn't really care about his individual stats and I believe he plays the game with a more team orientated mindset. He definitely has qualities that I like more than Kirk but it has little to do with throwing ability and more about the intangibles like leadership, mental toughness, and not being a selfish player (aka being team orientated).

 

I think we'll have some frustrations with Fitzpatrick through this season but if we make it do the dance, I really like how this roster is constructed for the playoffs and it could do damage. It reminds me a lot of the Eli Manning Giants teams. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[KDawg]

Gotta say it kinda makes me ill that we have so many that RIGHT NOW are okay with going after Watson.

 

I am NOT passing guilt or innocence here. I do not know nor do I pretend to.

 

But what we see thus far makes acquiring him an extremely morally dubious situation. If it turns out he did it and its proven he shouldn't even be in the league. That is disgusting (again, if he did it). He should be gone.

 

And for what its worth, I feel the same about Roethlisberger if he did it.

[Anselmheifer]

9 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Gotta say it kinda makes me ill that we have so many that RIGHT NOW are okay with going after Watson.

 

I am NOT passing guilt or innocence here. I do not know nor do I pretend to.

 

But what we see thus far makes acquiring him an extremely morally dubious situation. If it turns out he did it and its proven he shouldn't even be in the league. That is disgusting (again, if he did it). He should be gone.

 

And for what its worth, I feel the same about Roethlisberger if he did it.

First, I agree. But also, wasn’t roethlisburger accused of penetrative rape. That’s a whole different animal. I think there’s a good chance Big Ben should be in jail. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Anselmheifer said:

First, I agree. But also, wasn’t roethlisburger accused of penetrative rape. That’s a whole different animal. I think there’s a good chance Big Ben should be in jail. 

IF allegations are true for either/or they should probably be in jail. It’s awful. 

[ILikeBilly]

1 hour ago, GothSkinsFan said:

So what you are saying is that Kirk will get you to the second round of the playoffs but no farther so you'd rather lose in the first round with Fitz to get a better draft pick.  That or you think all white QBs look alike, thus confusing Kirt and Fitz (hint: Cousins doesn't have the guts to throw down a beard like Fitz) because what you wrote makes no sense otherwise.

Basically what I said was Kirk doesn't win big games, even when he has a good team ( Vikings during his first year).  The WFT defense would have forced Kirk into multiple mistakes.  I think you were thought I was referring to Kirk playing for WFT.  I wasn't.  

[Burgundy Yoda]

31 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Gotta say it kinda makes me ill that we have so many that RIGHT NOW are okay with going after Watson.

 

I am NOT passing guilt or innocence here. I do not know nor do I pretend to.

 

But what we see thus far makes acquiring him an extremely morally dubious situation. If it turns out he did it and its proven he shouldn't even be in the league. That is disgusting (again, if he did it). He should be gone.

 

And for what its worth, I feel the same about Roethlisberger if he did it.

I'm not okay with trading for him, I brought him up because of that tweet that I saw and figured it would bring good, combative discussion.

 

I also have no idea if he is accused of rape, sexual assault, or sexual harassment either. Which one is it? Was he just going in massage parlors asking for a little tug or did he forcefully rape women? The first one just makes you a lonely/desperate guy, while raping a woman makes you a monster.

 

Tbh, I've lived in a foreign country before and even I'm guilty of asking for a little tuggy. I wouldn't ask that at my age now, but I don't think that makes someone a bad person. I haven't really read into the case at all, but if he is guilty of rape with any of these 22 women, or sexually assaulted any of them then I agree with you that he shouldn't be in the NFL. 

 

I read recently that Watson is not settling at all, which means more will come out from this. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

I'm not okay with trading for him, I brought him up because of that tweet that I saw and figured it would bring good, combative discussion.

 

I also have no idea if he is accused of rape, sexual assault, or sexual harassment either. Which one is it? Was he just going in massage parlors asking for a little tug or did he forcefully rape a woman? The first one just makes you a lonely/desperate guy, while raping a woman makes you a monster. 

 

Tbh, I've lived in a foreign country before and even I'm guilty of asking for a little tuggy. I wouldn't ask that at my age now, but I don't think that makes someone a bad person. I haven't really read into the case at all, but if he is guilty of rape with any of these 22 women, or sexually assaulted any of them then I agree with you that he shouldn't be in the NFL. 

 

I read recently that Watson is not settling at all, which means more will come out from this. 

Theres definitely a chance he didn’t do it. These cases are so difficult because you don’t want to diminish the alleged victims but at the same time you don’t want to assume guilt on someone, either. 
 

Given we don’t know more we can frame this from a football perspective though. The assets that would be required to acquire Watson would still be fairly heavy and there is a risk of his eligibility. 
 

Right now everyone in the league should be staying away from trading for Watson and the Texans should be sitting on him until a verdict is in. 
 

Touchy subject matter

[Burgundy Yoda]

22 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Theres definitely a chance he didn’t do it. These cases are so difficult because you don’t want to diminish the alleged victims but at the same time you don’t want to assume guilt on someone, either. 
 

Given we don’t know more we can frame this from a football perspective though. The assets that would be required to acquire Watson would still be fairly heavy and there is a risk of his eligibility. 
 

Right now everyone in the league should be staying away from trading for Watson and the Texans should be sitting on him until a verdict is in. 
 

Touchy subject matter

I agree with you, but I just want to know what "it" is, that's a lot of cases to look through and we all have our own lives. Is "it" rape? Or, is "it" sexual harassment because he asked for a tuggy when it was clearly inappropriate to do so? Those two things should not be lumped together. I think the only thing I saw was an Instagram message from Watson apologizing to the victim and this was over a month ago I feel like. It said something like "I'm sorry, that was inappropriate". That doesn't say much, and if she really is a victim of a rape, it sucks for her if that's the best evidence she had. 

 

I don't think any team is going to be trading for Watson this season even if he's somehow innocent after all this. A better bet would be someone trading for him next year once the media stops covering it and it's not so recent. It's definitely a touchy subject, the best we can hope for is our broken judicial system to somehow work in favor of the victim(s). 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[Dark Acre]

49 minutes ago, ILikeBilly said:

Basically what I said was Kirk doesn't win big games, even when he has a good team ( Vikings during his first year).  The WFT defense would have forced Kirk into multiple mistakes.  I think you were thought I was referring to Kirk playing for WFT.  I wasn't.  

As BurgundyYoda said on another post, reading comprehension is hard....  You are absolutely correct in your analysis.  He's an all-stats/no-trophy QB.  I don't hate the guy and Jackturd Allen really screwed that pooch, but Kirk was utterly disingenuous about handling his end and his travails in Minny do give me some mild, comedic relief "in these times".  So keep each other safe and stay 2 cart lengths away from anyone who wants Cousins back on this team.

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Gotta say it kinda makes me ill that we have so many that RIGHT NOW are okay with going after Watson.

 

I've been as big a proponent of acquiring Watson as anyone, and I would say the dude is untouchable as things currently stand.

 

If things change, and we get a bunch of settlements, that puts it back on the table. If the Lawyers can promise things we can't hear behind closed door (like assurances of settlements) that changes things too.

 

No team should be risking major assets, which is what Watson would return, for a QB that you can not guarantee has a future in football. I don't have to claim innocence or guilt for Watson, but I don't have to tie the future of my NFL franchise to him right now either.

 

I believe a lot of NFL teams feel this way as we have yet to see real action on the front in spite of Hou's attempts to add QBs and recent rumblings are probably more associated with the also recent rumblings of settlements being near.

 

But based off what we know as fact right now, it is not an option to deal for Watson. I think a lot of us are more looking towards a situation where it would be more appropriate to do so. Anyone who picks him up tomorrow would get crushed by the media

Edited May 13, 2021 by FootballZombie

[TheShredder]

On 5/13/2021 at 11:40 PM, mistertim said:

They just had to give him a big 1 year contract.

...and contracts to all his boys and upgrade their OL.  It was a huge investment that paid off.  TB's FO acting like a Hedge Fund.