Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, RWJ said:

Just a hunch and nothing more that TH will pick up the O quickly and outplay Fitz overall.

This is not really a hunch to me, but I have a feeling that with our QB history, Ryan is due for an injury and we'll see Taylor and that's when the true competition begins. Right now it's in name only because everybody and their wife knows Fitz is the starter. But come September when he can't go again, either were going to see some Doug Williams put me in type or Taylor is going to get a chance. 

[Koolblue13]

I'm watching the Tampa game and Taylor came into the 4rth hurt after not really even being hit. We went 3 and out and the Bucs put on a grinding drive. 

 

Theyre offense picked on Bostic, Curl and Darby, but Taylor's fragility is why we lost.

 

Maybe a full year as a QB2 and investment, instead of a PS after thought can toughen him up.

[ODU AGGIE]

48 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'm watching the Tampa game and Taylor came into the 4rth hurt after not really even being hit. We went 3 and out and the Bucs put on a grinding drive. 

 

Theyre offense picked on Bostic, Curl and Darby, but Taylor's fragility is why we lost.

 

Maybe a full year as a QB2 and investment, instead of a PS after thought can toughen him up.

That is the most absolute bull hockey I have ever seen written. You seem to have completely and conveniently forgotten the 4th quarter drive for a TD  when TH completed four passes including the dime he dropped on Sims in the left corner of the end zone for the TD. If you want to blame that loss on something try blaming it on Tom Brady and the Tampa Bay offense along with the Bucs defense. They did go on to win the Super Bowl as hopefully you can recall. I cannot imagine anyone joining you in blaming Heinicke or his "fragility" for that loss. Get a grip.

[ODU AGGIE]

Brad Gagnon of the Bleacher Report has written an article naming the biggest "X" Factor for each of the NFL's 32 teams. His selection for WFT -- Taylor Heinicke.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2944182-every-nfl-teams-biggest-x-factor-for-2021

Edited June 14, 2021 by ODU AGGIE

[mistertim]

6 hours ago, RWJ said:

You could be spot on right Tim.  I am just speculating.    

 

Anything is possible, but I doubt RR will pull the plug on a QB unless he's really struggling. Changing QBs isn't generally something that coaches do lightly or on a whim. That changes the entire chemistry and even game plan because each QB is different and the way they play and have chemistry with their surrounding players is different. 

 

IMO the only way we see Heinicke this season is if 1) Fitz gets injured, or 2) Fitz has a string of horrible games and RR feels like something needs to change and figures TH should get a shot.

[Koolblue13]

5 hours ago, ODU AGGIE said:

That is the most absolute bull hockey I have ever seen written. You seem to have completely and conveniently forgotten the 4th quarter drive for a TD  when TH completed four passes including the dime he dropped on Sims in the left corner of the end zone for the TD. If you want to blame that loss on something try blaming it on Tom Brady and the Tampa Bay offense along with the Bucs defense. They did go on to win the Super Bowl as hopefully you can recall. I cannot imagine anyone joining you in blaming Heinicke or his "fragility" for that loss. Get a grip.

So the injury prone QB being injured and going 3 and out was helpful to us? 

 

I didn't forget anything. Heinicke played great most of the game, except after his dive when he injured himself and had to come out.

 

If he didn't injure his shoulder, he probably puts a drive together and we score or keep Brady off the field. But he did get injured, played flat, went 3 and out and they scored to go ahead TD.

[RWJ]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Anything is possible, but I doubt RR will pull the plug on a QB unless he's really struggling. Changing QBs isn't generally something that coaches do lightly or on a whim. That changes the entire chemistry and even game plan because each QB is different and the way they play and have chemistry with their surrounding players is different. 

 

IMO the only way we see Heinicke this season is if 1) Fitz gets injured, or 2) Fitz has a string of horrible games and RR feels like something needs to change and figures TH should get a shot.

I hope Fitz is lights out but I think he's going to push the envelope, get in trouble INT wise and by the 3rd game TH gets the call and never looks back if he can sustain the beatings and avoid the hits.  He did put on 15 lbs. of muscle and that will help.  

[zCommander]

42 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

So the injury prone QB being injured and going 3 and out was helpful to us? 

 

I didn't forget anything. Heinicke played great most of the game, except after his dive when he injured himself and had to come out.

 

If he didn't injure his shoulder, he probably puts a drive together and we score or keep Brady off the field. But he did get injured, played flat, went 3 and out and they scored to go ahead TD.

 

He was dropped/drilled on his shoulder by the defender twice and not by doing the dive. Can't blame him for that. **** happens. Like RG3 getting hurt on a fluke tackle and getting the helmet on his knee instead of his thigh. 

 

If he doesn't get hurt we win the SB, perhaps. Like we had a chance with RG3. Maybe our SB run is cursed...lol

[mistertim]

5 hours ago, RWJ said:

I hope Fitz is lights out but I think he's going to push the envelope, get in trouble INT wise and by the 3rd game TH gets the call and never looks back if he can sustain the beatings and avoid the hits.  He did put on 15 lbs. of muscle and that will help.  

 

That's just so early to pull a QB, especially a new one in your system who you specifically targeted and went out and got in FA. IMO Fitz would literally have to have put together a string of a few 0 TD 3 INT games for it to go in that direction so fast.

 

I don't see that happening as it's not really his history, especially in the past couple of seasons. If you look at his game by game stats, what he usually does is play pretty well but then sprinkled in there are some seemingly random stinkers where he'll throw 0 or few TDs and multiple INTs.

 

I'm not really a gambling sort of person but I'd probably bet money on Fitz not getting pulled after 3 games.

[Koolblue13]

5 hours ago, zskins said:

 

He was dropped/drilled on his shoulder by the defender twice and not by doing the dive. Can't blame him for that. **** happens. Like RG3 getting hurt on a fluke tackle and getting the helmet on his knee instead of his thigh. 

 

If he doesn't get hurt we win the SB, perhaps. Like we had a chance with RG3. Maybe our SB run is cursed...lol

Barely touched his shoulder or left arm. Even the announcers mention in. This was the drive we needed to have success on, but Heinicke was hurt and we were flat.

[Skinsinparadise]

looks like no Carr in the future 😀

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

On 6/14/2021 at 12:16 AM, RWJ said:

I hope Fitz is lights out but I think he's going to push the envelope, get in trouble INT wise and by the 3rd game TH gets the call and never looks back if he can sustain the beatings and avoid the hits.  He did put on 15 lbs. of muscle and that will help.  

 

I'd be surprised.  I've watched my share of practices and picks tend to happen.  It helps a lot that the defense knows the play book and keeps practicing against the same plays.  For that reason among others, defenses tend to outplay offenses in camp.   Also, players tend to take chances because they have nothing to lose and the coaches encourage it. 

 

Fitz played against the top defense.  He played with #1's on every play.    Heinicke and Allen didn't play against the #1 defense.  You have starters sprinkled in with the 2's but its not the same line up.    If Rivera is going to have a true competition, he IMO should mix in Heinicke with the #1's.  Maybe that happens in training camp?

 

As for the Fitz versus Heinicke debate.  I feel the same way as I did for all the QB battles.  i root for everyone.  I was one of the few who liked back then both RG3 AND Kirk for example.   It's not a zero sum game.  It's a win win if they both play well.

 

As for Heinicke, I like his scrambling-off script-scrappy style of play.  I do think his size along with his style of play even with the extra 15 pounds makes me wonder about his durability.  As for those who dismiss that.  I get that, too.  I used to feel that way about RG3.  I felt the dude was so good that things would just turn out well in spite of what I thought at the time were naysayers who doubted that he'd last playing the way he played.  Heinicke to me doesn't play as risky as RG3 but he puts himself out there enough, that i get the concerns.  It would be one thing if the coaches just shrugged off those concerns but they haven't. 

 

The one thing i like about our QB situation is if Fitz needs to sit or Heinicke needs to sit, I have faith in both QBs.  I was at the Jax games years ago when RG3 got hurt, Kirk came in and they didn't miss a beat.  I think we got the same dynamic now.  Heck Kyle Allen might be the best #3 QB we've had in eons.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Silvernon]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

looks like no Carr in the future 😀

 

 

 

Remember Jimmy Graham only playing if Drew Brees was his QB?

 

I rest my case. 

[Skinsinparadise]

On 6/14/2021 at 6:24 AM, Koolblue13 said:

Barely touched his shoulder or left arm. Even the announcers mention in. This was the drive we needed to have success on, but Heinicke was hurt and we were flat.

 

Heinicke himself said in an interview that dive to the endzone did his shoulder in during that game.

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Heinicke himself said in an interview that dive to the endzone did his shoulder in during that game.

It was pretty obvious. He was pretty flat after that, which Ron himself has talked about.

[Skinsinparadise]

On 6/14/2021 at 12:28 AM, zskins said:

 

He was dropped/drilled on his shoulder by the defender twice and not by doing the dive. Can't blame him for that. **** happens. Like RG3 getting hurt on a fluke tackle and getting the helmet on his knee instead of his thigh. 

 

If he doesn't get hurt we win the SB, perhaps. Like we had a chance with RG3. Maybe our SB run is cursed...lol

 

Thinking about it.  The RG3 compare isn't that wild.  The two players are very different.   Among other things Heinicke can throw well with anticpation (RG3 not so much) and RG3 has the stronger arm.   Different strengths and weaknesses. 

 

But they are similar in that neither was a big dude.  RG3 was bigger but he had a thin frame.  Both guys are willing to put their body on the line to make plays.  Both rely some on mobility -- granted RG3 did a lot more.    Both are exciting and by extension have some really hardcore supporters on the board.  

 

I recall the discussion for example on RG3 and his durability and how some (me included) played down his injuries as circumstantial and won't be a problem moving forward.

 

I guess I am jaded now .  Tough for me to ignore that those who know Heinicke best (his coaches who have been with him in multiple spots) supposedly are also concerned about his durability.  But hopefully he proves everyone wrong.

 

But yeah it does seem like this team is snake bitten at QB.  Tough for me to think of a team with worst luck and lack of success at that spot over the last 30 years or so.  For awhile the Lions and Browns were right there with us but arguably they've done better.  Mayfield looks like could be the Browns solution.  The Lions had a long run with Stafford who wasn't great but still was better than what we had and gave them some stability.  Maybe the Bears have had a similar bad run?  They might escape it though with Fields. 

 

So tough for me to expect good luck at the QB spot.   😧

 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[zCommander]

On 6/14/2021 at 6:24 AM, Koolblue13 said:

Barely touched his shoulder or left arm. Even the announcers mention in. This was the drive we needed to have success on, but Heinicke was hurt and we were flat.

 

Taylor lands on his left shoulder and they pull him out of the game to get him checked out. Not sure how that is barely touched, as you put it. 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by zskins

[Koolblue13]

9 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

Taylor lands on his left shoulder and they pull him out of the game to get him checked out. Not sure how that is barely touched, as you put it. 

 

 

 

According to Taylor, Ron and the eyeballs he hurt himself on the dive. Even the announcer said he barely hit his shoulder on that tackle.

 

But you could be right.

[zCommander]

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

According to Taylor, Ron and the eyeballs he hurt himself on the dive. Even the announcer said he barely hit his shoulder on that tackle.

 

But you could be right.

 

On the play, the QB said that he felt a pop in his shoulder, and suffered a separated AC joint. It wasn't until the next drive that Heinicke got hit and left for the locker room to get checked out, but he eventually returned and finished the game on the field.

 

Looks like they popped it back in and played hurt rest of the 4th quarter. He got hit twice on same shoulder. Aside from the dive play. 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by zskins

[tmandoug1]

On 6/13/2021 at 11:42 PM, Koolblue13 said:

So the injury prone QB being injured and going 3 and out was helpful to us? 

 

I didn't forget anything. Heinicke played great most of the game, except after his dive when he injured himself and had to come out.

 

If he didn't injure his shoulder, he probably puts a drive together and we score or keep Brady off the field. But he did get injured, played flat, went 3 and out and they scored to go ahead TD.

But if he doesn't dive and we don't score that drive then the point is moot.....right? Get it? He played his ass off and almost won a game playing for a 7 and 9 team against the soon to be Supabowl Champs. Stop it.

[Koolblue13]

5 hours ago, zskins said:

 

On the play, the QB said that he felt a pop in his shoulder, and suffered a separated AC joint. It wasn't until the next drive that Heinicke got hit and left for the locker room to get checked out, but he eventually returned and finished the game on the field.

 

Looks like they popped it back in and played hurt rest of the 4th quarter. He got hit twice on same shoulder. Aside from the dive play. 

 

 

"The play" was the dive.

1 hour ago, tmandoug1 said:

But if he doesn't dive and we don't score that drive then the point is moot.....right? Get it? He played his ass off and almost won a game playing for a 7 and 9 team against the soon to be Supabowl Champs. Stop it.

I'm not dissing the dive dude.

[tmandoug1]

8 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

"The play" was the dive.

I'm not dissing the dive dude.

I know that...my point was in regards to his decision to dive. Maybe he steps out of bounds to protect himself and we don't get the TD, maybe only a field goal. I guess the question is should he have stepped out or dove for the pylon. The odds are most of the QB's in the league might have gotten tweaked doing the dive. It was one of the better plays I've seen on this team in a long time. 

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, tmandoug1 said:

I know that...my point was in regards to his decision to dive. Maybe he steps out of bounds to protect himself and we don't get the TD, maybe only a field goal. I guess the question is should he have stepped out or dove for the pylon. The odds are most of the QB's in the league might have gotten tweaked doing the dive. It was one of the better plays I've seen on this team in a long time. 

I don't know. I'd guess dive, but it's exactly the question Ron was addressing when he said the Heinicke needs to learn how to stay healthy and not sell out for one play.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, tmandoug1 said:

I know that...my point was in regards to his decision to dive. Maybe he steps out of bounds to protect himself and we don't get the TD, maybe only a field goal. I guess the question is should he have stepped out or dove for the pylon. The odds are most of the QB's in the league might have gotten tweaked doing the dive. It was one of the better plays I've seen on this team in a long time. 

 

Unless it was literally the last 10 seconds of a game and it was for the go-ahead score, I think most QBs would not make that decision to dive; they'd run out of bounds inside the 5 instead and have 1st and goal. As Rivera noted, at that point Heinicke was a guy who may never be in another NFL game again so he was playing with absolutely nothing to lose. That's fun and exciting to watch, but it's not a good long term strategy. 

 

The very fact that most QBs would have gotten tweaked doing so is why most QBs wouldn't do it.

[wit33]

 

21 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'd be surprised.  I've watched my share of practices and picks tend to happen.  It helps a lot that the defense knows the play book and keeps practicing against the same plays.  For that reason among others, defenses tend to outplay offenses in camp.   Also, players tend to take chances because they have nothing to lose and the coaches encourage it. 

 

Fitz played against the top defense.  He played with #1's on every play.    Heinicke and Allen didn't play against the #1 defense.  You have starters sprinkled in with the 2's but its not the same line up.    If Rivera is going to have a true competition, he IMO should mix in Heinicke with the #1's.  Maybe that happens in training camp?

 

As for the Fitz versus Heinicke debate.  I feel the same way as I did for all the QB battles.  i root for everyone.  I was one of the FEW WHO i like RG3 AND Kirk guys for example.   It's not a zero summed game.  It's a win win if they both play well.

 

As for Heinicke, I like his scrambling-off script-scrappy style of play.  I do think his size along with his style of play even with the extra 15 pounds makes me wonder about his durability.  As for those who dismiss that.  I get that, too.  I used to feel that way about RG3.  I felt the dude was so good that things would just turn out well in spite of what I thought at the time were naysayers who doubted that he'd last playing the way he played.  Heinicke to me doesn't play as risky as RG3 but he puts himself out there enough, that i get the concerns.  It would be one thing if the coaches just shrugged off those concerns but they haven't. 

 

The one thing i like about our QB situation is if Fitz needs to sit or Heinicke needs to sit, I have faith in both QBs.  I was at the Jax games years ago when RG3 got hurt, Kirk came in and they didn't miss a beat.  I think we got the same dynamic now.  Heck Kyle Allen might be the best #3 QB we've had in eons.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The fan is in a great spot, both stories are easy to root for. Fan value is immense with either guy. 
 

As for the injury stuff, I imagine it being difficult to scale back your essence as a player to avoid injury. It seems Taylor moves a lot like Russel Wilson and his innate running skills should help prevent major hits. I haven’t watched how he got injured in the past NFL games or any college running highlights though. 
 

Ive always discussed the need to have a metric or rating for the dual threat QB that rates his ability to avoid hits. For example, you could tell Jackson would have the ability to avoid significant hits, due to his ability/skill to avoid big hits.