The Washington Defensive Line Thread

[IrepDC]

7 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

The question begs though, why would individual payers think they need to change up from what they were doing last year if it was working? yeah I know softer opponents and QB's may have skewed the numbers but for the most part but it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 

I don't think our DL trusts the back 7. The same way fans understand a QB taking risks and pressing when his team is down a few scores, when you have teammates on defense you don't trust to do their job i.e. cover, you sometimes start pressing to make big plays and be a hero. That's what I'm seeing at least. 

[Chris 44]

3 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

Rivera's comments about leadership make perfect sense to me. I was just saying how we don't have any (successful) vets on the defense to show all these young players how to be professionals. The result is we see them trying to figure it out on their own. Jonathan Allen is the only one ready to lead on our line, but he happens to be a lead by example guy. We need someone who can pull them aside and encourage them to trust the process. 

 

Right now we have young guys thrust into leadership roles while still learning to be professionals. That process isn't impossible, but I'm not sure our team and fanbase can be patient through so many growing pains without burying their confidence. When their confidence starts to decline, the pressure starts to add up, and when there's no veteran there to settle the group, you see young players start doing what we see them doing; breaking contain, missing their assignments, not trusting their teammates, chemistry decline and so on. There's no point in beating the dead horse about Kerrigan, but maybe this offseason if a vet DL is available(who has actually had some success in this league), we would be wise to bring them in just for the sake of leadership.

 

The same goes for the young LB group we hopefully keep building. They'll need a veteran to guide them as well. I don't like Jamin looking up to Bostic and Holcomb as examples.

Great points. Its where someone like Fletcher or Pierce would be worth their weight in gold on this defense.

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, Silvernon said:

Payne playing that way every game would be a game changer.

 

That would be two years where Chase would 'thrive' in the second half. Remember the talk of him not being at voluntary workouts...maybe his conditioning is the issue. 

 

It all comes down to Chase not playing up to his ability and position. See below: 

 

 

I listened to Baldy on the radio today, he thinks (as do I) that Chase is an elite talent and it will come for him.   He echoes what Rivera himself said this week which is Chase needs to adapt more counter moves.  

 

It seems like the three main scapegoats for the woes of the defense by most is either Del Rio, Bostic, or Chase or a combination of the three.    I am agnostic on Del Rio, I am willing to give him more rope.  I am down on Bostic.  And I remain high on Chase even if its uncool to be so right now.   I don't know if its conditioning with Chase.  His motor seems hot.  I think as Rivera said he needs to play smarter.  I think it will come, will see. 

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I listened to Baldy on the radio today, he thinks (as do I) that Chase is an elite talent and it will come for him.   He echoes what Rivera himself said this week which is Chase needs to adapt more counter moves.  

 

It seems like the three main scapegoats for the woes of the defense by most is either Del Rio, Bostic, or Chase or a combination of the three.    I am agnostic on Del Rio, I am willing to give him more rope.  I am down on Bostic.  And I remain high on Chase even if its uncool to be so right now.   I don't know if its conditioning with Chase.  His motor seems hot.  I think as Rivera said he needs to play smarter.  I think it will come, will see. 

 

The main scapegoats are:

 

Collins, Fuller, Bostic and Holcomb.

 

Young has been the biggest disappointment. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

The main scapegoats are:

 

Collins, Fuller, Bostic and Holcomb.

 

Young has been the biggest disappointment. 

 

I'd agree with that personally.   I am not though worried about Chase.    Fuller probably bounces back to form.  Bostic just isn't good IMO.  And I am tired of banking on Holcomb's potential. I am done with him for now.   

 

St. Juste from what I've seen has struggled but he's a rookie.  We've had some checkered play also at FS.   I know I get killed by some for slamming William Jackson's play against the Giants but I am sticking to it -- but he did play well in the other two games and looks like the arrow is pointing up for him so I lioke him on the aggregate.

 

As for chnages as to personnel, I wonder if I'd try Curl back as SS full time and big nickle.  McCain at FS?  Take the growing pains with Jamin Davis which it looks like they are starting to do.  And sign McKinney off the street to replace Bostic.  The thing that kills me about Bostic is he's a liability against both the run and the pass.  So if McKinney's thing is being a run stopper and pass rusher and is weak against the pass it will still be a major improvement.  I know some are very down on PFF's score, I sometimes feel the same, but for me their 30 score of Bostic which puts him next to last in the NFL at that spot is right on the money.  

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Having a hard time finding pressures.  In order QB rating against the defense.  QB hits.  And Sacks. 

 

 

[Warhead36]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I listened to Baldy on the radio today, he thinks (as do I) that Chase is an elite talent and it will come for him.   He echoes what Rivera himself said this week which is Chase needs to adapt more counter moves.  

 

It seems like the three main scapegoats for the woes of the defense by most is either Del Rio, Bostic, or Chase or a combination of the three.    I am agnostic on Del Rio, I am willing to give him more rope.  I am down on Bostic.  And I remain high on Chase even if its uncool to be so right now.   I don't know if its conditioning with Chase.  His motor seems hot.  I think as Rivera said he needs to play smarter.  I think it will come, will see. 

 

My worry about Chase from what I've seen so far this season is that he's still relying so much on just his athleticism. I remember last season noticing that he tended to do the same pass rushes most of the time, regardless of what the Tackle was doing (though not all the time...just a lot), and that he didn't seem to employ many counter moves. He also got (IMO) too upright out of his stance so it let guys get into his pads more.

 

I was assuming he would work on that stuff over the offseason, but then I was watching clips of him during camp where he was talking in interviews about how he was working a bunch on his flexibility, ankles, etc. But he didn't really mention much technique work. Then I saw vids of him playing during camp and he was still getting upright really fast.

 

And so far in his pass rushes this season he still doesn't seem to be employing many counters and his pass rushes many times look exactly the same still...either a stutter step and attempted hand swipe, or a pure outside speed rush. Once a decent Tackle gets into Chase's pads, it seems he's way too easily either stonewalled or pushed out to the side where he'll overrun the QB.

 

I still think he absolutely has the talent to be an elite edge rusher, but at this point he's kind of in Clowney territory: crazy athleticism, but the polish and the moves aren't really all there so he only ends up being a decent player and not special.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I still think he absolutely has the talent to be an elite edge rusher, but at this point he's kind of in Clowney territory: crazy athleticism, but the polish and the moves aren't really all there so he only ends up being a decent player and not special.

 

For me, I am still sold he ends up special for among other reasons his work ethic seems off the charts and ditto his desire to be great.  Rivera came off like he knew what Chase needed to do, will see if it plays out starting this week.  Rivera's drill was that Chase has multiple moves but could use even more but more specifically he suggested tackles are leveraging their blocks with Chase by favoring the outside, and Chase needs to counter to the inside to take advantage of it.  Rivera said the same thing applied to Sweat but Sweat has adjusted to it and has countered to the inside.

 

When Baldy talked about Chase, he played up how young he is.  He talked about how Miles Garrett evolved into a killer pass rusher but wasn't who he is now right from the jump. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Silvernon]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

 

Spears got passionate man.

 

Chase playing selfishly and calling out others. Not a good look.

[mistertim]

19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

For me, I am still sold he ends up special for among other reasons his work ethic seems off the charts and ditto his desire to be great.  Rivera came off like he knew what Chase needed to do, will see if it plays out starting this week.  Rivera's drill was that Chase has multiple moves but could use even more but more specifically he suggested tackles are leveraging their blocks with Chase by favoring the outside, and Chase needs to counter to the inside to take advantage of it.  Rivera said the same thing applied to Sweat but Sweat has adjusted to it and has countered to the inside.

 

When Baldy talked about Chase, he played up how young he is.  He talked about how Miles Garrett evolved into a killer pass rusher but wasn't who he is now right from the jump. 

 

Yeah I agree that Chase still absolutely has what it takes to become special. I'm just worried that he'll continue to fall into the trap that some other ridiculously athletic guys fall into, which is that they can't stop relying on their natural ability instead of focusing those abilities into technique work.

 

I remember watching this video analysis around the time of the 2020 draft where he broke down Chase's tape at OSU vs Nick Bosa's rookie NFL season, and he made some really interesting points about the outstanding technique Bosa employed but that Chase didn't so much, and how if Chase DID start to employ that kind of focus on technique he truly could become an absolute nightmare to go up against.

 

Basically he was showing how Bosa was almost always either reacting to what the Tackle was doing right after the snap (and that Bosa's first 2-3 steps of his rush always looked identical so the Tackle wouldn't be able to tell what he was going to do so he had to guess, which then allowed Bosa to react) and/or baiting the Tackle into overcommitting to stop one move (side scissors for example). Chase on the other hand mostly seemed to have his rushes predetermined, but he was just so fast and bendy that it didn't really even matter if he did the wrong move and completely whiffed...he'd still manage to get to the QB.

 

To my (admittedly novice) eyes, it looks like Chase is still pretty much doing the same thing.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by mistertim

[Warhead36]

I don't know if selfish is the right word. I think he's pressing to make a play because the team is struggling and he's putting the onus on himself to make the big play to turn things around. I mean I guess in some ways that's selfish but I don't see it like he's chasing stats for individual glory, I think he's just trying to do too much to win. Football is the ultimate team game.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

 Not sure if this Baldinger tweet has been posted yet today, but 😬

 

https://twitter.com/BaldyNFL/status/1442644000897441792?s=20

 

Edit: Sorry, I suck at posting tweets.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Silvernon]

4 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 Not sure if this Baldinger tweet has been posted yet today, but 😬

 

https://twitter.com/BaldyNFL/status/1442644000897441792?s=20

 

Edit: Sorry, I suck at posting tweets.

 

 

 

 

 

[petey hodge]

9 hours ago, KDawg said:

Young has been really bad.  Creating vertical and horizontal gaps in his rush is scary.

 

How dare you criticize Chase "one move" Young!

 

😆

[Mooka]

That's holding on #74. 

[Playaction2Sanders]

So, watching some QB school on Allen tearing our D a new one. One thing stood out here. Daron Payne. JT breaks down maybe 8-9 plays. Payne is putting serious pressure on Allen on 7 of them. Its pretty impressive to watch.. I know other teams are seeing this..

 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Playaction2Sanders

[Skinsinparadise]

[lovemaskins]

Watching the videos and tweets is interesting. Seems like effort and discipline is a big part of the problem, add the fact that the front end and back end aren’t playing together and you can see why the D is getting shredded.
 

Seems fixable, but if there’s contention between coaches and players this feels like a recipe for a long season.  Hopefully they figure it out an come together… what a difference a Sunday can make. 

[Warhead36]

We're getting pressure here and there but we haven't seen that collective pocket collapsing ability yet. Its kinda like in baseball when one or two guys are hitting but the rest aren't so you end up with guys on base but no runs scored yet everyone has decent batting average stats.

 

Eventually everyone is gonna break through and we're gonna have one of those 5+ sack games. Could very well be this week against a statue QB behind a bad OL.

[IrepDC]

45 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

We're getting pressure here and there but we haven't seen that collective pocket collapsing ability yet. Its kinda like in baseball when one or two guys are hitting but the rest aren't so you end up with guys on base but no runs scored yet everyone has decent batting average stats.

 

Eventually everyone is gonna break through and we're gonna have one of those 5+ sack games. Could very well be this week against a statue QB behind a bad OL.

The front 4 have to at least start working together. I understand them having some trust issues with the back 7, but if they would at least work together as a DL, they'd help their cause a lot. Everyone seems to be noticing Allen and Payne pushing the pocket so if Sweat and Young start retracing their rush, instead of running full circles, we would collapse the pocket much more effectively. Those sacks are there to be had right now.

 

I'm not holding my breath for coverage sacks just yet, but those collapsed pockets where the DL works together plays can be made with small adjustments. We should take that step first. That'll hopefully have QBs seeing ghosts and help with our lackluster back 7 performances.

[tmandoug1]

I went back and read CY draft profile and he is playing exactly as predicted. His strengths aren't helping him as much in the NFL as they did in college. He is predicted to be a perennial all pro.....but that requires being coached up I assume. His last listed weakness....

 

- Will need better go-to moves to become less predictable as a pro.

 

We need him to absorb **** like a sponge, not rely on athleticism alone. That is my newbie novice opinion.

[Wyvern]

Maybe Washington needs to bring in Jim Tomsula as an defensive line "advisor."  He was decent in developing D-linemen talent in their formative years.  He's available.

 

 I wonder if this is one of Sam Mills III's "down years" for getting good results from his D-line.  When I read he was the one helping Rivera with clock management, "game management"and calling for replays ... I was less enthused about his performance in those areas.  Maybe he'd benefit by having Tomsula work with Washington's  D-linemen on planning out/choreographing their pressure moves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Wyvern

[KDawg]

2 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

I went back and read CY draft profile and he is playing exactly as predicted. His strengths aren't helping him as much in the NFL as they did in college. He is predicted to be a perennial all pro.....but that requires being coached up I assume. His last listed weakness....

 

- Will need better go-to moves to become less predictable as a pro.

 

We need him to absorb **** like a sponge, not rely on athleticism alone. That is my newbie novice opinion.

I keep trying to tell people this. 
 

He’ll likely be fine. He’s still the same dude everyone swooned.