A New Start! (the Reboot) The Front Office, Ownership, & Coaching Staff Thread

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I’m watching this “franchise in crisis” thing.  And we’re 15 minutes on and there hasn’t been a mention that all of the main players which contributed to the toxic culture, save Snyder, changed this year. 
 

You’d think SOMEONE would mention that, at least as a passing thought.  But not yet. 
 

I feel bad for Ron. He’s trying to move forward but this stuff just isn’t going to end. 

 

One thing that stuck out to me was when the women were asked do you think the culture can be changed, and the answers were "Not under Snyder, no." When you consider the recent hires of Donaldson, Wright, and Rivera, the investigation results, the intense media spotlight on the franchise, and Snyder understanding that there's now a possibility of being forced to sell the team--their claims that the culture cannot be changed while Dan is still owner didn't hit as hard as I think the producers wanted it to (for fans, anyway). Especially after Wright's segment...his description of his time talking with Snyder at length about workplace culture change and what's needed to achieve it before being offered the job gave the impression--right or wrong, true or not--that Snyder actually wants that change to occur, even if only because it's being forced on him to do so.

 

This may be the first time I've felt optimistic in all of this...feels like either Snyder will be forced to sell the team or will be forced to become a better owner. I can't see how the status quo can possibly remain moving forward. If Dan remains on as owner I still think league oversight will be part of the equation for awhile...he won't be given the opportunity to just fire Wright and Donaldson and downsize the HR department and then start pinching the behinds of female interns with impunity because "he wasn't having fun anymore".

Edited September 7, 2020 by Califan007

[Darrell Green Fan]

I was hesitant to watch but tried to find it last night at 5 but for some reason not on here in Mt Airy.  Not sure why that was. Can someone summarize any new info on Snyder if there was any?

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, 09 said:

 

no doubt there were victims ...   

... but multiple victims were able to find/fill employment vacancies ... across country ... (unless Baltimore) ... with other NFL franchises?

 

not defending pos Snyder ... but at least come up with a better story.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't see how that could be a "story" or made up as you suggest.  If the WP reporters said some of them were later employed elsewhere, it clearly happened.  It's not like it would be difficult to prove one way or another.  The only question to me is how many of them were employed elsewhere. They didn't say in that radio interview. I'd guess just a few.   If so, do I think that's still relevant?  Yes.  

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I’m watching this “franchise in crisis” thing.  And we’re 15 minutes on and there hasn’t been a mention that all of the main players which contributed to the toxic culture, save Snyder, changed this year. 
 

You’d think SOMEONE would mention that, at least as a passing thought.  But not yet. 
 

I feel bad for Ron. He’s trying to move forward but this stuff just isn’t going to end. 

 

Best analogy I can come up with is (and this is a fabricated example since I never did this) for 20 years I've had serious issues with booze and cheating on my wife.  A bunch of times my wife goes to me, that's it, I've had enough.  I go to her I'll turn the tide, bear with me, I'll change.  I'll do this and that.  It will last for a little bit, and then it happens again.   Rinse and repeat.

 

Finally after 20 years, my wife finds out my issues might run even deeper on all those fronts and she's poised to leave me.  And more and more stuff keeps coming up as to what I did.  So I check my self into rehab, renounce drinking again and say this time I am dead serious and I enter the most famous rehab center in the country or whatever.  I am told if this time I don't clean up she'd leave me for good.  

 

Now if I was a public figure and all of this was coming out.  Would the focus be on me entering this new rehab center and my new swearing off of drinking or would the focus be on how I was a terrible dude for 20 years and they are still uncovering wild crap about it that wasn't disclosed previously?  It would be the later.  My new I am going to be reformed stuff is old hat, old school stuff, just repackaged.  It's not interesting.  It's not even that relevant.

 

Bringing this to Dan.  The new beginnings nonsense is what he does.  That's his trick.  I've fell for it before.  My last foray of it was the Shanny years.  I thought the dude changed and people need to get over the "old Dan" who I was a critic of.  As stories filtered out later, I found out I was wrong.  Some of my posts on it in retrospect were embarrassing. 

 

From what I recall, my position dovetails with you (most don't agree with us) that Dan doesn't interfere as much as he used to.  But I do think he does interfere.  You from what I recall give him an out with his hires saying that's been the problem not so much him.  If so I depart with you there, to me his hires and fires often reflect his personality.  Bruce and Vinny to me are a symptom of the disease but are not the disease.  Dan has created a culture where the top personnel guy is the dude who can play office politics there and knows how to work Dan's moods and whims.   That's more important than competence in the end.  And if I went on the ride that Dan just doesn't know how to make good hires -- that's just as bad of an attribute since that's arguably his most important duty. 

 

He's hired good people before.  He's had John Schneider,  Brian Lafemina.  Heck it even felt different when he hired Scot.  He's had HC's with big time reputations.  A lot of people (me included) ironically felt the team's reputation was back when Shanny and Bruce came.  Before that is was when Marty came.  And with Gibbs. 

 

Dan's new attempts to salvage his declining reputation by making hires of reputable people, including a female in the backdrop of a sexual harassment scandal IMO doesn't demand Redskins fans to sit back and say hey lets give Dan a break, he's changing.  It's different.  If people want to do that, that's cool, to each their own.  I am familiar with the feeling, I've felt that way previously.  But no more.  If someone wrote a book about Dan's years here, I think an apt title would be "This Time It's Different".  The "its different now" rap is Dan's calling card. 

 

The stories about Dan being a jerk and having a bad culture in the building has been part of the backdrop of this team for years.  The late night drinking sessions -- talked about by the WP and guys who covered the team where Dan would get together with the team's decision makers.  The idea that it was a tense place to work at has been part of the narrative, too.  There is a dude who worked there who talks about it on twitter from time to time.

 

Dan can hire good people.  But will it last if they don't see things eventually the way he does?  The reputation with Dan is he gave people leeway initially but if the results don't come fast, watch out. 

 

Dan is obtuse but I don't think he's stupid.  Supposedly someone (according to Sheehan) did a poll for him that showed his negatives with fans is in the 90s.  That's insane.  Fans aren't showing up to games.  TV ratings are declining.  And he's under siege for fostering bad culture.  The bad culture has often been a subplot of the narrative about Dan but now its the main feature movie and it looks like it could be even worse than what it was rumored to be.  And Dan doing his new dance about maybe that was then, and that was other peoples fault mostly anyway, lets focus instead on the now -- if anything that's a variation of every other narrative we've had over the years about change is coming.   It's other peoples fault.  Not Dan.  Dan is changing.  And wait till you see the new exciting bigger and better and faster version of what's next.   

 

Can an obtuse jerk transform their personality and all of a sudden truly understand how to build a winning culture?  I got my doubts about that.  And when some of the women said they don't see Dan changing, I get that.  We got a 21 year sample of Dan's new beginnings and how things are going to change now.  I actually believe he means it at the time but I think like most people you are who you are.  People don't change easily even when they intend to do so,

 

The interview below IMO is one of the nicest interviews about Dan but also revealing.  We got the Dan doing the I was young and stupid bit and now he's older and wiser.  And they talk about how the ship is likely now righted with Shanny and Bruce in charge.  That was 10 years ago. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[LD0506]

TheDan is who he is, he not isn't going to change in some fundamental way, he is incapable of that, and IMO it is rooted in his belief that he isn't really wrong, he's just being hounded because people don't understand his inner greatness.

 

Sound familiar?

 

He can and will make surface changes, go through the motions to prop up the appearance of changing, growing, maturing, but at heart he is still the exact same small teased kid that fantasizes about getting even with all his tormentors. He will have to have the franchise forcibly yanked from his hands, he's never gonna just give up and walk away.

[Dissident2]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Dan's new attempts to salvage his declining reputation by making hires of reputable people, including a female in the backdrop of a sexual harassment scandal IMO doesn't demand Redskins fans to sit back and say hey lets give Dan a break, he's changing.  It's different.  If people want to do that, that's cool, to each their own.  I am familiar with the feeling, I've felt that way previously.  But no more.  If someone wrote a book about Dan's years here, I think an apt title would be "This Time It's Different".  The "its different now" rap is Dan's calling card. 

 

Exactly. I think some of these new hires are great. Jason Wright was incredibly impressive on that show yesterday. Said all the things I'd want someone in that role to say. Where has that been for the last 20 years? Julie Donaldson seems like a good person. Rivera seems like a good person. All good moves it seems. But it's clear to me why those moves were made at this point by Danny, especially the executive hires. It's clear he's hoping people will have that very same lazy reaction: "OK, he finally got it right. Let's give him a chance", lol. It's more transparent than plastic wrap. 

 

What's more telling about him is when Lafemina was canned and he immediately brought back his buddy Terry Bateman, who supposedly told the staff, "We're going to go back to how things were now." Then about 40 people quit shortly thereafter. 

 

This guy (and Tanya) may have made some good hires for a change, but that shouldn't remotely excuse him for the last 20 years of a truly horrible culture that he happily maintained.

 

 

[CTskin]

@Skinsinparadisegreat analogy and great points.

 

borderline impossible to disagree with. I guess the only difference now is the heat is turned up to a level he’s never felt before and he’s actually understanding that he could be forced to sell. Of course, this would be the wrong reason to change yourself, the motivation should come from the mountain of complaints and wrongdoings. Regardless, we can all agree this situation is different than anything he’s previously faced doesn’t touch the scope of this. 
 

id love for him to be out, but everything he’s done this offseason with personnel hiring and public statements (I believe the skins were the first nfl team to declare they would skip practice in light of the police shooting) has been the right thing to do. 
 

maybe this time he’s truly scared straight.

 

and to your analogy, I think most of us can relate, who have a friend or relative who dealt with those issues and found the road to recovery. 
 

After writing all this I’m just going to post it even though if it came to a fan vote to out Snyder, I’d be for it.

[Peregrine]

Its amazing, Snyder fires some people, then hires some people only in response to a couple of damning reports that might take down his organization and some of you go for the 30th time"Oh look hes changed"

 

Fools will always be fools. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Peregrine

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Its amazing, Snyder fires some people, then hires some people only in response to a couple of damning reports that might take down his organization and some of you go for the 30th time"Oh look hes changed"

 

 

It's where I am coming from.  How many times are we going to fall for the same trick.  Each shiny toy feels different at the time.  If we pulled old threads about the feelings during the Marty hire, Gibbs, Shanny-Bruce, Scot and now the current one, I bet we'd find many points about this feels so different then the other configuration.

 

And yeah to me this one does feel different.  But I felt the exact same way the other times, too.  I have a lot of faith in Rivera, Kyle Smith and Jason Wright.  I have little faith that Dan won't ultimately impinge on that eventually.  Because Dan does Dan.  As some source said in a Standig article weeks back, Rivera hasn't met the real Dan yet.  He eventually will meet the real Dan.

 

According to some the real Dan comes out as soon as he starts feeling impatient and that something is amiss and he needs someone to blame. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Califan007 The Constipated]

27 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Its amazing, Snyder fires some people, then hires some people only in response to a couple of damning reports that might take down his organization and some of you go for the 30th time"Oh look hes changed"

 

Fools will always be fools. 

 

 

I haven't seen a single person say he's changed.

[WilberMarshall]

9 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Ok, I give up.  Kevin Blackistone and Jason Reid are proclaiming keeping the color scheme is going to cause fights in the stands between fans.

 

I knew I shouldn’t have bothered.  This is an agenda driven piece of schlock. 
 

I get it, they want to pound on Snyder.  And whatever, I’m not going to complain about that.

 

But they’re presenting it as “reporting” when it’s completely one sided piling on.

 

Shame on you Jeremy Schaap.  You used to be better.  

What exactly were you expecting?

 

The mistake those Anti-Snyder are making is that they are now looking like a gang-up attempt at a hostile take-over. You have the Minority owners who all along knew that Snyder was a tempestuous lil fella with a massive ego problem that has problems dealing with people; now they are conflating his bad management style with him being a bad person. 

 

They have found a common enemy. The feud with WaPo is a long running feud. Folks from the outside might not know this but any fan of the Washington franchise can tell you for free that WaPo is NOT without bias. The animosity is evident... 

 

Snyder is making it easy for them... the PRODUCT on the field is lousy. Now, all his detractors have coalesced and are taking turns having a go at him. A bully just met a much bigger set of bullies...

 

His saving grace might just be his wife, Tanya. She should be given more role in running the franchise. 

 

 

[ntotoro]

I think we all know the second Rivera is out the door, Danny Boy will go right back to being the little prick he is. He won’t have a lightning rod, which is what he has always had. The second Gibbs went out the door, the burner in the dumpster turned right back up again.

 

All this time I had been saying Gibbs 2.0 was a statement to how good Gibbs actually was, even out of the sport as long as he was. Look what happened immediately pre and post Gibbs 2.0. The second Danny Boy has no one else around him who can guide him, things flush right back down. It’s his track record. He could only take one year of being hands-off with Marty before firing Marty the GM to rehire Kindergarten Ninja, forcing Marty the HC to quit.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, CTskin said:

@Skinsinparadisegreat analogy and great points.

 

borderline impossible to disagree with. I guess the only difference now is the heat is turned up to a level he’s never felt before and he’s actually understanding that he could be forced to sell. Of course, this would be the wrong reason to change yourself, the motivation should come from the mountain of complaints and wrongdoings. Regardless, we can all agree this situation is different than anything he’s previously faced doesn’t touch the scope of this. 

 

I agree with this part.  This time his ownership is actually under direct threat.  That's not been part of the soup before.  Does that make him scared straight?  Maybe.  But who knows?

 

This isn't directed at you but how I see it.   I am not falling for the trick of instead of caring about an investigation which might lead to Dan's downfall -- let it all go and instead focus on what Dan is doing now to change  as the investigation is ongoing.  Forget the old Dan, how about the new Dan.  Mind you we've had new Dan configurations in the past but lets trust that this time he means it because he might really be in trouble where he has no choice.

 

Going back to another analogy, lets say I robbed a store and the cops are investigating that.  It would behoove me to tell the cops hey forgot about that lets focus on what I started to do in my life the moment this investigation started.  So screw the investigation just let it go or see it as the past is just the past.  I now do all these good will stuff.  I go to schools to help teach students to stay out of trouble.  I pledge to never steal another item ever again.  Lets focus on how I am transforming my life now, forget that pesky investigation which is old news.  Do you cops want to meet my new psychotherapist and see how wonderful that dude is and how they are mentoring me?  Talk to him.

 

Or whatever.  Dan being forced to make PR moves to burnish his image doesn't convince me he's changed.  That's vintage Dan if anything. And his press release about the investigation juxtaposed with Julie's and Jason's statement if anything indicates to me he's still the petty scapegoat driven dude that he's always been. 

 

In his defense, its not easy to change your personality.   Based on the people who have worked and interacted with Dan over the years, I never got the picture that the dude was evil. He seems to have a good side for sure.  But he's described as an awful manager in that he's both arrogant and delusional.  It's always someone else's fault.  He supposedly runs the place by fear with the exception of his buddy lieutenants who are good at kowtowing to him.   According to some, he's a rich dude who wants people to respect him because of his wealth and has an air of superiority about him.  I know some say there is no way to know for sure.  I agree with that.  But that are so many stories over the years that come out in bits and pieces that paint a similar picture and you can see even from the occasional press release and action from the team that the shoe seems to fit or at least close enough. 

 

And if we all got that wrong, that's on him IMO anyway.   Because if you chose to be a reclusive and prefer not to face the music then you can't complaint of having a false image.  Dan is running a very public organization and is one of the odd ducks among owners who prefers hide in the shadows and just about never go public.  Steinbrenner or Jerry Jones at least had the guts to face the music and put out their own image to their customer base. 

 

Will Dan under the gun, turn a new leaf.  I don't doubt for a little bit, sure.  But once things calm down, I bet money that the old Dan comes out because it always eventually does.  And this is coming from one of the rare people here who does think he's changed on some fronts.  But I don't think his personality changed.  And IMO he's personality is prime and center of why this team has been one of the worst in the NFL during his tenure.  

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

31 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

 

I haven't seen a single person say he's changed.

 

Speaking for myself, I don't think anyone is saying he's changed.  The focus for me is that Dan seems to want to portray a changed organization.  To me its just a different form of old school Dan.

 

I've actually been accused multiple times back in the day in the Bruce thread of being pro Dan because I focused so much on Bruce and actually said on some counts I do think Dan has changed.   I actually even had a pro Dan period to some extent during the Shanny years buying at the time he finally changed.

 

My cliff notes take on Dan is that I do believe he hasn't involved himself as much in personnel decisions as the past.  I do think think though he has been involved some.  I do suspect based on what some have said that he's mellowed a little.  But by and large I've heard too many stories of him being a jerk and a terrible manager for multiple reasons.  And I've worked with some people that fit sort of the Dan profile over the years and I just find from my experiences that's just the way they roll.  It's hard to change a personality and a mode of thinking.   It's instinct.  It just comes out.  They tend to be on their best behavior early on when everything is OK but things tend to go south eventually and it turns ugly. 

 

So personally with the long sample we have of Dan, I think its going to be tough to ever be a winner with him.  I also depart from some of the Dan critics though on one point which is I do think you can eventually perhaps win under him because I am a big believer in luck in sports. It could happen IMO.  But it won't be easy to do it with him. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Andre The Giant]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Speaking for myself, I don't think anyone is saying he's changed.  The focus for me is that Dan seems to want to portray a changed organization.  To me its just a different form of old school Dan.

 

I've actually been accused multiple times back in the day in the Bruce thread of being pro Dan because I focused so much on Bruce and actually said on some counts I do think Dan has changed.   I actually even had a pro Dan period to some extent.

 

My cliff notes take on Dan is that I do believe he hasn't involved himself as much in personnel decisions as the past.  I do think think though he has been involved some.  I do suspect based on what some have said that he's mellowed a little.  But by and large I've heard too many stories of him being a jerk and a terrible manager for multiple reasons.  And I've worked with some people that fit sort of the Dan profile over the years and I just find from my experiences they juts roll the way they roll.  It's hard to change a personality and a mode of thinking.  They tend to be on their best behavior early on when everything is OK but things tend to go south eventually. 

 

So personally with the long sample we have of Dan, I think its going to be tough to ever be a winner with him.  I also depart from some of the Dan critics though on one point which is I do think you can eventually perhaps win under him because I am a big believer in luck in sports. It could happen IMO.  But it won't be easy to do it with him. 

In a radio interview back in March, Julie Donaldson (well before she was hired by the team, but was frequently breaking news) told Galdi and Doc that Snyder was the one pushing to sign Amari Cooper.  I remember being surprised the team offered him all that money, because it seemed so out of character with their other moves.  Plus, I personally didn’t think he was worth it.
 

After all the noise, all the criticism of meddling, he was still pushing on his new Coach Rivera to make a splash move.

 

Snyder will never change.  He can’t. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

So personally with the long sample we have of Dan, I think its going to be tough to ever be a winner with him.  I also depart from some of the Dan critics though on one point which is I do think you can eventually perhaps win under him because I am a big believer in luck in sports. It could happen IMO.  But it won't be easy to do it with him. 

 

For me, if we are ever to become a consistent winner under Dan, it would either take him changing internally or at the very least changing his ownership and management style significantly. This currently seems to be a perfect storm of events that may force the latter on him by league oversight. "Change your ways or you're out" kind of thing.

 

The whole "Dan and Tanya/the Snyders" thing gets ridiculed (rightly lol)...but I briefly wondered if it's more than a PR move. If Dan gets suspended for a year or whatever, would Tanya be able to be the majority owner and be team owner in his absence? Not sure how that works, if suspended means you can't be at the facilities but you can still conduct ownership duties remotely or if suspended means you are not interacting with the team at all...but if there were more moves made behind the scenes in including her as an owner, I wonder if it was done so that she could step in and Dan could still be owner by proxy through her...which could be why you're seeing her name so often now in connection to ownership of the franchise. Mind you, I'm not saying I believe that's the case lol...but it just entered my brain not too long ago. Maybe because as a PR move it absolutely is laughably transparent that I thought "There's GOT to be another reason for doing this" lol...

[Springfield]

There is no reason to be hopeful at all about this upcoming season. Expecting anything other than the burning bright dumpster fire that happened last season is delusional.

 

Snyder has shown that he corrupts every bit of his business ventures straight from the top. Until he's proven, over the course of several seasons, that he can hire people to do their jobs and not corrupt them or force them away then perhaps my opinion will change. I'm glad he's done the BARE MINIMUM, and fired people of a losing team and replaced them with other people who are reportedly competent. He's proven, time and time again, that this doesn't guarantee any sort of success... with people much more accomplished than Ron Rivera.

 

Plus, this roster sucks. Rivera doesn't have much to work with. It's questionable as to how long the fans and Snyder will stick with Rivera. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, WilberMarshall said:

What exactly were you expecting?

I wasn't expecting anything positive. But I've always respected Outside the Lines.  They typically have done a good job.  I was expecting them to take shots at the WFT, but I didn't expect it to be SO one sided.  The discussion on the name change was appalling.  

 

What I don't think they understand is that all the fans are on the side of "get Snyder Out."  But the name issue is complex.  The people in charge give some evidence the adults are running the show.  There are some things which have changed, and it's at least ok to acknowledge them.  

 

In fairness, they were going to have an upcoming segment on the new leadership, which I didn't get to.  But the introduction was, "how much can they really change anyway?"  Given that was the lead in, I'm just going to extrapolate the answer was, "not so much."

 

EDIT: Let me clarify this.  I don't think Dan is going to really change.  And I'm not entirely sure ANY of this stuff they are doing now is going to work because we have 21 years of history to show Dan is going to screw it up.  So, if I were a betting man, I would bet Dan screws it up.  

 

And I want Dan out.  It would be good for the team to have new ownership.

 

That said, what I'm disappointing in is not reporting the whole story.  Report all the facts, and then comment on the completely set of facts.  What they did is present only the facts they wanted, and then jumped to the conclusion.  That's what I take issue with. 

 

Also, and maybe this is just me, but this situation, from the end of last year through now, just FEELS different.  There were almost zero fans of the team in the stands for most of last season.  The team on the field was awful.  All of the indicators are team generated revenue is way down.  The team couldn't tweet or instagram anything without getting 1000 #FireBruceAllen replies.  The fans who hadn't left were in open revolt.  That was somewhat different.  

 

Fast forward to this year.  The allegations from the Post might not be entirely different, we've seen it before with the cheerleading story from a couple years ago.  But they are vastly expanded.  The name change thing is very different.  And all of the crazy stuff within the ownership group seems very different.  

 

Where that leads us, I'm not sure.  However, what a really good Outside the Lines piece could have been would have been to focus on THAT.  Why is it different THIS time.  What are the ramifications of this difference?  Could it mean Snyder is out?  Could it mean he's scared straight?   That would have actually been interesting.  

Edited September 7, 2020 by Voice_of_Reason

[Conn]

32 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

In fairness, they were going to have an upcoming segment on the new leadership, which I didn't get to.  But the introduction was, "how much can they really change anyway?"  Given that was the lead in, I'm just going to extrapolate the answer was, "not so much."

And? That’s clearly the correct answer, there is no reason whatsoever to think that Snyder won’t eventually ruin this setup, too, no matter how good and different a leadership team he builds this time around. Coming to any other conclusion would be doing a disservice to the story and people who have lived through 20+ years of his ownership.

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

From what I recall, my position dovetails with you (most don't agree with us) that Dan doesn't interfere as much as he used to.  But I do think he does interfere.  You from what I recall give him an out with his hires saying that's been the problem not so much him.  If so I depart with you there, to me his hires and fires often reflect his personality.  Bruce and Vinny to me are a symptom of the disease but are not the disease.  Dan has created a culture where the top personnel guy is the dude who can play office politics there and knows how to work Dan's moods and whims.   That's more important than competence in the end.  And if I went on the ride that Dan just doesn't know how to make good hires -- that's just as bad of an attribute since that's arguably his most important duty. 

Just to clarify, I see "who he hires," "how he enables them," and "how he interferes" all as "his fault."  So, there's no real "out" for him I'm granting him.  He's the top dog, and he's responsible.  However he has chosen to eff it up, he's effed it up.  

 

I do think he has interfered. It's clear he wanted Haskins, for example. Picking Griffin's side over Shanahan. The list goes on... (Which, amazingly, he might be right about. Law of averages or a broken clock is right 2 times a day possibly)   I also think at times he should have done something sooner and didn't. ie: firing Bruce/Jay.  Maybe even stepping in with the first set of Cousins negotiations, and figuring out how to bridge the Bruce/Scot/Cousins impasse.    He enabled the culture in his organization to perpetuate.  That's ALL on him.  He's the boss. Period.

 

I do like your analogy.  It's a good one. And I agree.  And I also get that there is going to be a ton of focus on the past and not the future.  For all the reasons you stated.

 

That said, maybe I'm just extra disappointed in the ESPN Oustide the Lines piece because it wasn't just one-sided against Snyder.  And it didn't come across as even remotely well-researched or thought-out. 

 

I think it was the discussion on the name that really, really aggravated me, because while they were definitely taking a shot at Snyder, they brought in the investor who started the fund to financially force FedEx and other sponsors to change the name. (Not Native American.) They brought in a woman who I've never heard of to talk about it (not Native American).  They got Jason Reid, Kevin Blaickistone and the third (a woman, I'm not familiar with her and I don't remember her name, but also not Native American.) and they just piled on.  They picked at the organization not changing the color scheme because that was going to allow fans to cling on to the old name, which was going to anger the Native American community, and have fights inside or outside the stadium.  They had ONE Native American who spoke, and honestly his perspective was the only good one.  However, there wasn't even remotely a mention that other Native Americans feel, and have felt differently.  It was just insulting from a reporting perspective.  

 

[Skinsinparadise]

50 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

For me, if we are ever to become a consistent winner under Dan, it would either take him changing internally or at the very least changing his ownership and management style significantly. This currently seems to be a perfect storm of events that may force the latter on him by league oversight. "Change your ways or you're out" kind of thing.

 

 

Agree.  And I agree its a perfect storm for him to change.  I just wonder if he could because its not easy to change your personality and the way you think.  

 

From time to time, you mention your work experiences help you at times digest certain things.  I do the same.  I am in a businesses albeit not sports which is competitive with wins and loses and in the public arena among other things.  I end up working with more or less 40 different clients a year so am exposed to all types.   I've had a few clients who remind me a lot of Dan's described style.  They are impetuous.  They become really mean under stress.  They are wealthy and have an air of superiority about them and talk down to people lower on the chain so to speak.  They don't take responsibility for what goes wrong even when their fingerprints are deep in it.   They like to scapegoat.

 

In my mind, I think about these people I've worked with who are similar.  I find a way to get along with them  by working around their neurosis as best as I can but I've had an altercation or two still.   In short, I am never at my best working for people like that because I take less risks, I spend some of my energy placating them and I try to incorporate their ideas in my work even when I don't believe in them.  I've had my mini experiences in what I think is a losing culture.  And to me its pervasive because even when the dude isn't on your case, you are still working on material with that person's thoughts and expected reactions in your head. 

 

51 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

 

The whole "Dan and Tanya/the Snyders" thing gets ridiculed (rightly lol)...but I briefly wondered if it's more than a PR move. If Dan gets suspended for a year or whatever, would Tanya be able to be the majority owner and be team owner in his absence? Not sure how that works, if suspended means you can't be at the facilities but you can still conduct ownership duties remotely or if suspended means you are not interacting with the team at all..

 

Interesting.  I never thought of Tanya taking over during a Dan suspension.  Don't know.

 

52 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

Maybe because as a PR move it absolutely is laughably transparent that I thought "There's GOT to be another reason for doing this" lol...

 

In my business, sexual harassment is a sadly an issue that comes up from time to time.  And from a PR stand point the classic move is to put a woman out front to deal with it.  So to me it comes off more like PR 101.   I've read Dan has hired an outside PR firm to advise him about this all. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

And? That’s clearly the correct answer, there is no reason whatsoever to think that Snyder won’t eventually ruin this setup, too, no matter how good and different a leadership team he builds this time around. Coming to any other conclusion would be doing a disservice to the story and people who have lived through 20+ years of his ownership.

I don't disagree.   (I was editing my last post as you were replying, and said as much.)

 

As I said, I really had a problem with the show from a journalistic perspective. 

 

Based on what I have seen posted, and read from fans, I think the follow viewpoint is widely accepted (I'm certainly in this group):

 

1. Dan has been the worst owner in not only the NFL, but all of North American sports for 20 years.

2.  He hires the wrong people, meddles when he shouldn't, doesn't set a good example, and either allows or fosters a toxic culture.

3. The product on the field has been lousy.  6 winning seasons in his 21 years of ownership.  (And one of those was an 8-7-1 squeeker.)

4. There is a greater chance Dan will screw up the new hires of Ron and Jason than there is for sustained success.

5. It's not just the losing, it's the low-rent way the team has gone about doing business which has alienated the fan base.  That's on Dan.  He could have fixed that immiediately.

6. They want Dan gone.  This would be the fastest path to respectability.

 

However, having said ALL that, a 1000 mile journey starts with a single step.  And since hiring Ron, most of the steps have been correct.  I think for any journalistic piece, it's at least important to acknowledge that, and then call into question whether Dan will allow it to succeed.  And as I said, I think the betting favorite is "not" which is the bet I would place right now.  But I also think you have to acknowledge for the first time in 20 years, this is different. There isn't a henchman like Vinny or Bruce, or even Eric Schaffer or Larry Hess, in the organization with Dan's ear.  That's a big difference.  So we'll see.  

 

In my ideal world, Dan is forced to sell, and somebody else owns the team, but honestly, I'd really like to see this Ron/Jason movie play out for a couple years and see how it does...

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Just to clarify, I see "who he hires," "how he enables them," and "how he interferes" all as "his fault."  So, there's no real "out" for him I'm granting him.  He's the top dog, and he's responsible.  However he has chosen to eff it up, he's effed it up.  

 

I do think he has interfered. It's clear he wanted Haskins, for example. Picking Griffin's side over Shanahan. The list goes on... (Which, amazingly, he might be right about. Law of averages or a broken clock is right 2 times a day possibly)   I also think at times he should have done something sooner and didn't. ie: firing Bruce/Jay.  Maybe even stepping in with the first set of Cousins negotiations, and figuring out how to bridge the Bruce/Scot/Cousins impasse.    He enabled the culture in his organization to perpetuate.  That's ALL on him.  He's the boss. Period.

 

 

OK, I stand corrected on that part of your position.  I think for me as for Dan my opinion has changed in this regard.  I used to worry most about him interfering.  Now its not really my top concern anymore.   I don't like him interfering but my bigger beef is his style of management.

 

Per some of my recent posts, as I've gotten deeper in my career I have the luxury of turning down more jobs where I try to avoid working for Dan types.  Ironically I am stuck with one client like that right now where a friend got my involved, warned me about the client, but said they'd have my back, but then they recently quit.  So I am stuck dealing with that client without much of a buffer. Ironically there is a Bruce Allen type involved as a potential buffer that I've learned to cater favor with in order to keep me in a good place with the client.  But the whole process is exhausting and I can't wait for it all to end.  And no its not bringing out my best work. 

 

I just think Dan's style of management is the biggest issue even bigger than him interfering.

 

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

That said, maybe I'm just extra disappointed in the ESPN Oustide the Lines piece because it wasn't just one-sided against Snyder.  And it didn't come across as even remotely well-researched or thought-out. 

 

 

 It was interesting to hear Russell bash the ESPN show this morning.   Russell said he knows there are other women in the mix who have yet to talk and he knows some of them personally and knows some of them have spoken to the WP off the record.  Jones in a podcast more or less said the same.  Russell suggested that maybe ESPN would have been able to uncover some of that and add to the WP story but instead it was a pure rehash of Dan's losing tenure and without even that much attention on the women.

 

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I also think at times he should have done something sooner and didn't. ie: firing Bruce/Jay.  Maybe even stepping in with the first set of Cousins negotiations, and figuring out how to bridge the Bruce/Scot/Cousins impasse.    He enabled the culture in his organization to perpetuate.  That's ALL on him.  He's the boss. Period.

 

 

 

According to some who know him -- he prefers people who kowtow to him.  So the dudes who play office politics there and know how to talk to Dan are the ones who survive.  Marty was one and done according to people like Keim because he didn't know how to talk to Dan.  So it might not be per se that Dan just doesn't see he can do better than who he's got but its that he prefers who he's got because they are his pals or they cater well to him or whatever.   

 

And then you wonder if Dan will ever get the best out of his employees for reasons I expressed in other posts.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

32 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

1. Dan has been the worst owner in not only the NFL, but all of North American sports for 20 years.

2.  He hires the wrong people, meddles when he shouldn't, doesn't set a good example, and either allows or fosters a toxic culture.

3. The product on the field has been lousy.  6 winning seasons in his 21 years of ownership.  (And one of those was an 8-7-1 squeeker.)

4. There is a greater chance Dan will screw up the new hires of Ron and Jason than there is for sustained success.

5. It's not just the losing, it's the low-rent way the team has gone about doing business which has alienated the fan base.  That's on Dan.  He could have fixed that immiediately.

6. They want Dan gone.  This would be the fastest path to respectability.

 

Your post wasn't directed at me but it was perfectly on point to some of the debate here, so I am going to respond to this myself. 

 

That above is a perfect summary.

 

32 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

However, having said ALL that, a 1000 mile journey starts with a single step.  And since hiring Ron, most of the steps have been correct.  I think for any journalistic piece, it's at least important to acknowledge that, and then call into question whether Dan will allow it to succeed.

 

Maybe ESPN didn't cover that point too much but they did have Jason wright on the show who did well.   Recalling the media's stories over the years he's gotten plenty of kudos for his hires in real time especially:  Marty, Gibbs, Shanny, Scot, Lafemina maybe even Doug.  They've acknowledged it.   It hasn't worked out.  At the time really most of it indeed felt different.

 

A.  Marty was a winner -- hard nose coach and was given control and he brought John Schneider with him.  Cerrato was out.  Dan was no longer young and foolish, he's learned!

 

B.  Joe Gibbs!  Top that!  The dude personified  success and class.  Vinny sticks around but Gibbs rules the organization.  So it all felt great and very different.

 

C.  Shanny in.  Vinny out.  Bruce coming over to take over the business side.   Celebrated and applauded at the time even by the media

 

D.  Scot comes.  A real personnel guy in charge for personnel for a change.  Lots of good press.

 

E. Lafemina comes.  Refreshing.  Open with the fans.  Comes off like a good guy and honest.  Feels like a new leaf.

 

With the benefit of hindsight we can critique all those moves in some way, it wasn't what we thought at the time or it wasn't enough but at the time they felt great.  And Dan got plenty of hey this time its looking different potentially buzz.

 

Does he deserve it just as much this time.  Nope IMO.  And look i do think this configuration beats all the others.  But I felt the same way in real time in the past.   And Dan no longer deserves IMO the benefit of the doubt for his new form of new beginnings.  Its what Dan does whenever things fall part but it doesn't last.  Now that's how I feel.  It doesn't of course mean that others should feel the same but I don't think my feelings here are that unique. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Dissident2 said:

 

Exactly. I think some of these new hires are great. Jason Wright was incredibly impressive on that show yesterday. Said all the things I'd want someone in that role to say. Where has that been for the last 20 years? Julie Donaldson seems like a good person. Rivera seems like a good person. All good moves it seems. But it's clear to me why those moves were made at this point by Danny, especially the executive hires. It's clear he's hoping people will have that very same lazy reaction: "OK, he finally got it right. Let's give him a chance", lol. It's more transparent than plastic wrap.

 

 

 

Like most here, I am a fan of other sports franchises besides the WFT and the ride I go on for those other teams are much easier.   You just focus on the sport rather then worry if the owner or his minion is a douche and whether they will ultimately sabotage the team's ability to win.

 

I am not being sarcastic when I say we truly as WFT fans deserve better than this.  It's been a painful 20 plus years.  It's not just the losing but the lack of class along with the angst that has come along with it.    Some of us argue with each other whether Dan is really a douche or not or whether we are giving him too hard of a time or whether this time is different -- but in sports terms those are odd conversations, I don't have those type of discussions with fellow fans for my other favorite sports teams.  

 

We deserve to be talking about just the sport itself.  But as WFT we have all sort of discussions that aren't that normal for some other franchises.  

 

To sum up my point if we got three things cooking:

 

A.  Wright, Rivera, Donaldson with Dan and lets see if Dan lets them do their thing and finally gets it right?

 

B.  Wright, Rivera, Donaldson with Dan suspended or out

 

C.  Dan's getting a bum rap leave him alone

 

Judging by twitter or call radio I'd guess it would break out this way as to fan sentiment.

 

A: 15%

B. 80%

C. 5%

 

I am in category B.  Love the new hires.  But if there is a chance that Dan can be removed in the mix of this investigation (and some who previously thought Dan was untouchable see it as a possibility) then I am rooting hard for it -- even if there is some collateral damage within the FO. 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Skinsinparadise