A New Start! (the Reboot) The Front Office, Ownership, & Coaching Staff Thread

[Riggo#44]

10 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I guess that depends on how you define a ‘strong’ candidate.  Typically strong candidates have multiple suitors.  
 

You and I both know Hurney had two options: Washington or retirement.

 

Again, I hate this crap because I do wish for the best.  But my logical side can’t pretend that this in any way exciting.

 

The key for me is going to be who is picking the players: Smith, Stokes, Mayhew? Most of the GM positions went to "player pickers," it seems. Hurney isn't that so he wouldn't be an option for any team looking for one.

 

We'll see, said the Zen Master.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, Number 44 said:

To each his own.  Negativity is optional.

Positivity is also optional.

 

Personally, I’m indifferent.  Just providing color for why folks aren’t in love with this.

[CTskin]

19 minutes ago, -JB- said:

Doesn’t take Einstein to realize Haskins is possibly the worst QB of all-time 🤣 Things are changing?  Just 2019 Snyder made them draft Haskins even tho nobody in the room wanted him.  Nothing is changing!  It’s more of the same.

Haha you’re pointing to a time before the changes started... i get it man, how many times have we said things are changing. It’s the boy who cried wolf. But you’re being very @GOATFrerotte on this one.

 

If you really think nothings changing when Dan stood on a table to make the team draft Haskins and then less than 2 years later let’s his pride and joy get cut then you’re missing something. I respect u as a long time poster, but you must see how this would have never happened if Snyder was really calling the shots.

[TSO]

23 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

I’m still gonna root for the guy, but Rivera loses a lot of benefit of the doubt if he makes this hire. 

You know I’m 100% with you in terms of the prospects of all this (and, man, I feel for you trying to explain it here, lol)... but I will say this. I don’t blame Ron. Like, at all. 
 

This has been my position with every coach hired here. It’s not their fault Dan can’t set up a decent organizational structure to save his life. I don’t blame Ron for accepting the “Football Emperor” position... I mean, why not? It sounds great. And any concerns you have about the idiot owner sabotaging you, well, you can try (key word: try) to mitigate yourself if you’re at the top of the totem pole. 
 

But everyone does this. Everyone hires who they’re comfortable with. It’s normal. Yeah, you don’t want that to be the main reason they’re hired at the expense of competency, but it’s just simply an essential human quality and no one is perfect. 
 

Guess what, though? You can avoid that very human trait becoming a negative with, you guessed it, sound organizational principles being implemented from top to bottom. If you’re going to give a coach all this power to do whatever he wants, you can’t then blame him for doing what is comfortable. 
 

This is all Dan. An owner can delegate all they want, but the one major role they still have to fulfill that will dictate the success of their team is their hiring process. He doesn’t even have one as far as I’m concerned. He gets desperate after failing to create a somewhat normal organizational structure by hiring or elevating the most unqualified fools to be his top exec, and then has to give the entirety of Front Office power to a coach just to be able to bring someone respectable in. The pattern literally never fails. He’s just a reactionary that shifts to extremes when said extremes fail. That’s actually his philosophy - to not really have one. 
 

So I don’t blame Ron for taking that and doing what any human being would. Dude wants to be comfortable and not be looking over his shoulders within the building. I mean, who knows what he’s already seen from Dan. Could’ve been just a word here or there. Heck, maybe it’s all the crap he’s read about Dan with all the legal stuff and minority owners going off. But he knows this could all go south real quick.  
 

So here we are. My favorite part of the initial presser after Ron was hired was when he said:

 

Quote

 

 “I took this job for one simple reason - cuz Dan Snyder came to me with a very interesting perspective. For weeks, he’s explored the reasons for why some teams win and some teams don’t. He told me the common factor in that transitional success of teams like the Patriots, the Seahawks, the Chiefs, and some of the other ones, was the decision to take it and make it [a] coach-centered approach. Not an owner-centered approach or Team President or a GM, but a coach-centered approach.”

 

 
My God, like where do I start? There’s our genius owner’s philosophy right there as spelled out by Ron. I dare anyone to really dig into that - I mean actually research the various models that exist around the league - and come out with anything other than disgust in their heart. 
 

I mean, first off... “weeks” of research? Really!? He’s the friggin owner for God’s sake! He should be living and breathing the various methods and philosophies of successful organizations to the point where he can describe each one and their pros and cons right off the tip of his tongue! Weeks!? You kidding me? 
 

Second (and I’m legit exhausted by now trying to get this point across to no avail), the most successful “coach-centric” models that have been employed around the NFL DO NOT REMOVE THE GM FROM HAVING POWER OVER HIS RESPECTIVE DEPARTMENT.  So there’s that, but hey, who’s counting amirite? 
 

So regarding the above quote, sure, the Patriots fit the “Head Coach as Football Emperor” model, congrats Dan you got that right. The Seahawks? Debatable since they’ve had a strong GM presence in Schneider from the start, but ok, let’s just accept that (technically speaking and on paper) they were comparable since Carroll retained final say. But the Chiefs? Nope. They have a HC and GM equal in rank, both reporting to the CEO, with both having final say over their respective departments.
 

He mentioned “some of the others”. Who? There aren’t any more successful ones to list with the same model Dan sold Ron on! If they’re talking about the 49ers and Bills, of which the media wrongly started lumping us in with as following the same “coach-centric” model, and of which I believe Ron later mentioned as examples... welp, sorry, they’re also like the Chiefs in that their HC and GM are equals in rank, both report to someone else, and both have final say over their respective departments. 
 

So right there, our brilliant owner has no idea what he’s talking about. He sees no nuance, no details, only generalized and overly simplistic concepts. If he did, he’d only say the Patriots and Seahawks and the LAST THING he’d claim is that this was the most successful model around the league or some nonsense.

 

 The only real accurate example of sustainable success we have here with the model he initially employed with Ron is the Patriots with Belichick. That’s it. And if anyone just looks at it sincerely, they’ll notice that anyone who has attempted the same thing anywhere else has failed miserably. Belichick’s coaching tree is a disaster for a reason. That reason is two words. Tom Brady. He’s why that worked. He was what made every aspect of organizational management so easy for the Pats to the point where one guy can run it all at a high level. 
 

So that’s what brilliant Dan sold to Ron. It’s what he did with Marty, Gibbs, and Shanny, too. I think people forget that. We had this same exact model with Shanny, who was even behind bringing in Bruce Allen as GM, but was Head Coach and Team President with all the power given to him by Dan. Dan will corrupt things whenever and however he wants, this model isn’t going to stop him, but I digress. 
 

Instead of recognizing, and thus relating to Ron, how often this model fails and how unlikely it is to be successful, which is what anyone who’s done any decent amount of research around the league will come to understand... instead of even pointing at the recent example of it failing within our own division where Chip Kelly seized power with the Eagles and immediately failed... instead of looking at where the Texans were headed with Bill O’Brien taking control (something fools like us on a friggin message board were projecting based on that model)... instead of going through the history of the salary cap era and seeing how it essentially NEVER works and how the best set ups were either the GM-centric models or a coach-centric model that didn’t remove the GMs power over personnel, but made it more balanced between Coach and GM... instead of that this is the overly simplistic bs we got, and Ron got, from our owner. 

 

I don’t blame Ron for that. He shouldn’t even have to know these things, he’s a friggin football coach. A teacher. His most successful years were within traditional structures where he could just focus on coaching. Fans like us shouldn’t even know these things. This is EXACTLY what an owner should know better than anyone, though. But ours just did some “weeks of exploration” and came up with that. 
 

Awesome. 
 

So none of this is surprising. It really shouldn’t be. 
 

At least we are hiring a GM. So that would make us similar to the Seahawks structurally. That adds ones more example of a successful “HC as Football Emperor” operation we’d be comparable to, I guess. Now, since it’s Hurney, he (admittedly) doesn’t come close to Schneider in terms of personnel-evaluating ability, but he knows that as well so, I mean, all we can do is give it a chance. And the Seahawks are somewhat of an anomaly considering Carroll doesn’t hesitate to essentially admit Schneider is running the show with personnel, at least during the offseason (which is why I said it’s debatable to include them in this model Dan set up, but again I digress). 

Either way, the reality is that we’re just going to have root for, once again, being an exception to the rule and somehow overcoming a net negative organizationally speaking. It’s extremely rare. Like drafting Tom Brady in the 6th round rare... but it can happen. That’s what we’re rooting for. 
 

And I’ll root hard for Ron, like I always do with every coach that gets hired here and every player that gets acquired. It’s really not their fault. As far as I’m concerned, they’re simply set up to make these mistakes and the longer they work with Dan the more it’ll happen. Don’t be surprised if in year four Ron is making the most basic of mistakes on the field, as well. This is 100% on Dan and his inability to set up an organization following any semblance of sound principles.
 

Enough with this guy, it’s maddening.  

[Commander -JB-]

7 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Haha you’re pointing to a time before the changes started... i get it man, how many times have we said things are changing. It’s the boy who cried wolf. But you’re being very @GOATFrerotte on this one.

 

If you really think nothings changing when Dan stood on a table to make the team draft Haskins and then less than 2 years later let’s his pride and joy get cut then you’re missing something. I respect u as a long time poster, but you must see how this would have never happened if Snyder was really calling the shots.

I’m just saying even Snyder can see how his bonehead move to draft Haskins wasn’t going to work because Haskins is a terrible QB with massive immaturity issues and overall just seems dense as hell.  Even Snyder knew it wasn’t going to work.  Doesn’t mean he’s not gonna continue to run the football operations as he always has!  Nothing has ever changed!

[JoggingGod]

@thesubmittedone Nice fan fiction you wrote there

[-9-]

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

25 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

@thesubmittedone Nice fan fiction you wrote there

So in other words, you hate what he said because it’s true and it’s sobering and sad.

[Warhead36]

I don't mind Mayhew as much as Hurney. He had some success in Detroit, I mean even taking that dog crap franchise to the playoffs a couple times is noteworthy. And in San Francisco he was a pretty big part of turning that team around too.

[JoggingGod]

19 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

So in other words, you hate what he said because it’s true and it’s sobering and sad.

Or because he’s pulling stuff out of his ass and crying over the smallest things. 

[kingdaddy]

31 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't mind Mayhew as much as Hurney. He had some success in Detroit, I mean even taking that dog crap franchise to the playoffs a couple times is noteworthy. And in San Francisco he was a pretty big part of turning that team around too.

I'm happy with adding Mayhew after Hurney. The more voices from guys who've been around success the better. Mayhew helped build the Niners SB team and I believe Hurney had a hand in the Panthers SB run....but the bigger picture is that Dan continues to add change to the once dysfunctional front office. I know that as long as we have Dan there will be some doubt, but could it be that he has had his eyes opened over the brutal year he's had? We can only hope. There's also a part of me that the Mayhew hiring is kind of a compromise between The Danny and RR....you get Hurney and I want Mayhew, lets hire the both of them. Done, lets get a beer. I don't drink beer, Chardonnay for me. Fine, get whatever you want, I'm drinking beer. Cool, I'll buy....damn right you will.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

39 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

Or because he’s pulling stuff out of his ass and crying over the smallest things. 

You must be new here.

 

@thesubmittedone has spent more time researching this subject than anyone here.  He’s laid all this stuff out, well before Ron Rivera showed up.  I’d ask him to point you to the findings he’s shared with the board in the past, but I doubt you could read, digest and understand it all.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 Definitely seems certain that Kyle will be on the outside looking in, that much is for certain.

 

Short Answer:

Maybe

 

Long Answer:

I don't think it's for certain, but I can't blame anyone for thinking that.  We don't know enough yet to say.  That said, there is on paper a clear conflict between Smith's 2020 role with Football Team and Mayhew's 2020 role with 49ers.

 

Some things we don't know:

We don't know how much say Mayhew had as the head of the Pro Personnel group for the 49ers

We don't know Mayhew's specific role with Football Team.

We don't know yet if Smith was told his expanded role from last season was always going to be temporary until the Front Office could be filled out.

We don't know if there's a promise to Smith, or Mayhew, or both that when Hurney retires, the next GM would likely be promoted from within.

We don't know yet Hurney's timeline before retiring, or if that was just a rumor and he'll work until he's dead.

We don't know if Mayhew's talent with Pro Personnel evaluation meshes well with Smith's talent.  Does how they evaluate players fit well together like puzzle pieces or will they be at odds?

We don't know if the rumors Smith wasn't considered were true.  We've heard Rivera was looking for more culture building while Smith is heavily introverted.  I so far haven't seen that rumor repeated from a beat reporter.

 

It's possible Smith's spot with the team is unchanged.  It's possible, but...on paper, the chances of that do seem slim.  Given perceived overlap between Mayhew and Smith, for there to not be any status/responsibility/power change of Smith, then the process of hiring Mayhew would have to have been phenomenal finding, in him, the perfect candidate.  As well all know from real world experience, the hiring process is often not that lucky.

[Warhead36]

The thing is, Smith's name hasn't really been linked to any GM jobs anywhere else. Its not really a hot name for whatever reason like say Schoen in Buffalo or Cowden in Tennessee. It very well could be that the Kyle Smith stock really isn't all that high across league circles, in which case if he were to leave it would probably only be for a lateral move.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

The thing is, Smith's name hasn't really been linked to any GM jobs anywhere else. Its not really a hot name for whatever reason like say Schoen in Buffalo or Cowden in Tennessee. It very well could be that the Kyle Smith stock really isn't all that high across league circles, in which case if he were to leave it would probably only be for a lateral move.

It’s not really about Smith being ready to be a GM today, but bringing in not one but two dudes, sort of says ‘never gonna happen here’.

[JoggingGod]

41 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

You must be new here.

 

@thesubmittedone has spent more time researching this subject than anyone here.  He’s laid all this stuff out, well before Ron Rivera showed up.  I’d ask him to point you to the findings he’s shared with the board in the past, but I doubt you could read, digest and understand it all.

Oh yes I’m sure some expert would be posting on a public forum rather than working in the media or for the league.

[method man]

This is set up in a way that Mayhew gets promoted after Hurney retires in a couple years.  Kyle Smith is unfortunately gone. I don’t like that Ron is filling the front office with boomers

Edited January 21, 2021 by method man

[TSO]

15 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

Oh yes I’m sure some expert would be posting on a public forum rather than working in the media or for the league.

Never claimed to be an expert and never aspired to be anything more than a fan on a friggin message board, so that has nothing to do with anything. All I’ve always claimed was that I’ve researched the various organizational structures around the league and have presented it here multiple times. I get that it’s boring and annoying, and I’ve spoken about how the media plays a major role in perpetuating the ignorance about those things, which is why fans over-emphasize coaching at the pro level... but your response is why I largely stay quiet and avoid saying anything the last few years. It seems to be a fruitless endeavor, so hey, I agree with you on that at least. 
 

But your drive-by posting isn’t okay and is a direct violation of our rules here. Now, this is partly my fault because I humored you last time you did it and even joked about it:

 

...But I shouldn’t have because you’ve got enough warnings for me to know that you should know these rules by now or that you simply don’t care enough about the quality of this board to follow them. Either way it’s not good. What I should’ve done was point you to rule 5 (of which you’ve violated before) and rule 7:

 

Quote

 

5. Your default position is to be respectful of your fellow members in your posts.
Upon registering, every member agrees to not post inappropriate material or topics. This includes content which is knowingly false, defamatory, deceptive, inaccurate, racist, insulting, abusive, inflammatory, vulgar, hateful, obscene, profane, sexually graphic, or physically threatening. It also includes posting anything invasive of another member's personal privacy outside of their posted content on ES, or in violation of any law including any stalking or otherwise harassing any member. Such material connected to the poster's life beyond what they willingly post on ES is a particularly serious violation.

 

Free debate within the parameters outlined is welcome, and diversity of opinion is vital to a good debate. Every member is free to post their own opinion on the topic/subject of the thread without sanction, as long as the way it's expressed does not violate forum rules. As you debate your fellow members we request you maintain contact with the content of the discussion within each reply, especially as any exchange becomes more heated.

 

We encourage spirited discussions and holding people accountable for what they post. This may be done in ways from funny to firm, including being castigating if reasonably merited. For example, calling someone "clueless" or calling some comment or post “stupid” when done in appropriate and justifiable context to the poster’s actual content is often allowable. This is most safely done when in response to a specifically posted comment using the "quote" feature or in accurate reference to a poster’s general content in various threads over time on a given topic. Such castigations must not be excessive, and the reaction should be such as may normally be expected by an average reader with a strongly opposing and reasonably informed opinion. If you're unsure, being civil is the safest course. You will rarely go wrong by going after the views of the poster more than the poster's character or personality as you see it. Moderators determine any actions to be taken if needed. Bottom line--do as you choose and so will the moderators.

 

We are not seeking to favor some genteel "tea & crumpets" gathering or some dry and ponderous book club discussion forum. Nor are we seeking some gratuitously flaming cage-match atmosphere in our threads. 

 

Understand that moderators have wide latitude in defining and enforcing this rule. For this and all matters related to moderation, we suggest close inspection of Rule 18.

 

 

 

Quote

12. No trolling. Beware of making baiting posts.
Do not post comments that are fundamentally inflammatory, or of little substantive content, or of some broadly insulting nature that serve primarily to incite your fellow members. ExtremeSkins has always prided itself on its zero tolerance policy for the common internet troublemaker. Trolls come in many forms and will be identified and censured at the discretion of the ES Staff. We are seeking a better level of conversation than just habitual drive-bys, being simplistically insulting, or gratuitously flaming various well-established points of view regardless of how strongly they may differ from yours.

I’ve bolded the parts you need to look at specifically to make it easier on you since it’s obvious you don’t like actually reading and understanding where a person is coming from before responding. 
 

This serves as a warning for you. Like I said, it’s my fault I humored you last time so I won’t penalize you even though it’s well within my prerogative considering your history here. But to come back with another drive-by post and ignore everything I said by just calling it “fan fiction” without even attempting to address anything? Nah, we’re not having that here. Sorry, this isn’t a board for you to take a dump on and treat like any other social media-type dumpster. It’s our duty as moderators to facilitate an atmosphere that breeds quality discussions here. 

[RVAskins]

I'm not sure why all the negativity towards Marty Hurney. He served in the front office of the San Diego Chargers as assistant general manager to Bobby Beathard in the 1980. That's a pretty good person to learn from. I'm willing to see what he does and how the front office works together. We need football people making decisions and not Snyder.

[RWJ]

6 minutes ago, RVAskins said:

I'm not sure why all the negativity towards Marty Hurney. He served in the front office of the San Diego Chargers as assistant general manager to Bobby Beathard in the 1980. That's a pretty good person to learn from. I'm willing to see what he does and how the front office works together. We need football people making decisions and not Snyder.

The quote is "What have you done for us lately"  That's why the Hurney hisses are coming out.  Rightly so IF he's named GM.  Mayhew has not had a very good track record either.  If you had an up and coming somewhat or seasoned VP of Player Personnel such as Cowden, Schoen then it's different at least to me. 

[Tarpon75]

4 hours ago, wilco_holland said:

Don't get me wrong. But we hired a minority again. I hate all the silly Rooney style rules. But I respect that we look to be one of the most diverse franchises in the nfl.

 

That's something I can be proud of. 

Diversity for diversity’s sake doesn’t accomplish anything. Simply hire the best people,there will be diversity baked in. I’m not sure Mayhew fits the  description of being one of the best. Hope I am wrong.

[86 Snyder]

5 minutes ago, Tarpon75 said:

Diversity for diversity’s sake doesn’t accomplish anything. Simply hire the best people,there will be diversity baked in. I’m not sure Mayhew fits the  description of being one of the best. Hope I am wrong.

 

 

(For the record I am a staunch supporter of diversity)

[Going Commando]

40 minutes ago, RVAskins said:

I'm not sure why all the negativity towards Marty Hurney. He served in the front office of the San Diego Chargers as assistant general manager to Bobby Beathard in the 1980. That's a pretty good person to learn from. I'm willing to see what he does and how the front office works together. We need football people making decisions and not Snyder.

 

I don't dislike him either.  I feel like he did a pretty decent job in Carolina and was a pretty significant part of the band that was successful in building that short-lived contender around Cam Newton.  His presence here will help Ron Rivera.

 

I also appear to be in a camp by myself that is skeptical of Kyle Smith, and I'm not too worried about him getting poached.  We desperately needed to beef up our front office this offseason, Rivera was wearing way too many hats this year and stuff fell through the cracks as a result.  And this is that.

 

My problem is that we did this backwards.  The tried and true method for building your football operations is the traditional top down approach where you have a full time GM running personnel and empowered to build the team according to their vision, and then a head coach running his staff and coaching the players.  I think this is necessary because the GM's job incentives need to be structured long term, not short term like a coach's.  They need to be able to always keep the big picture in view, and they need to be the bridge and mediator for every part of the organization.

 

Before we ever hired Rivera, we should have hired Wright, and then had him lead the hiring of the GM, and then have that person put their front office together and hire the coaching staff.  Then there is a clear chain of command and clear roles for everyone.  The way we've done this, it basically requires Rivera to be great in order to work.

[Bifflog]

23 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Before we ever hired Rivera, we should have hired Wright...

 

Then you wouldn't have hired Rivera.  It's the Ron show for better or worse, and I can't say I've seen nearly enough yet.  I wish a more inspiring hire had been made too, but just because I don't see it on paper doesn't mean I'm ready to rake him over the coals for it.  It has to fail a little bit before that is warranted.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Bifflog

[joeken24]

15+ years, no playoff wins. Hell, bearly sniffing a playoff. What do we have to lose with these hires? some experts on this board seem to know beyond a shadow. 😏