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2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread


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3 hours ago, DWinzit said:

Thanks for confirming my thoughts not only on Teven, Radunz and the res of the gang lol. 

I really hope they can grab Darrisaw or Cosmi in the 1st or Radunz or Eich in the 2nd

Later I like Christiansen and Moore. I don't know much about the other late rounders mentioned.

 

To change topics, I was wondering what TE's you like in the 3-5 rounds (after the top 4). While I don't love any other them, for different reasons I like McKitty. Yeboah and Long.

Also you talk up Najee and Etienne but never mention Williams. Seems like at 51 he would be a bargain. Thanks in advance

 

image.png.0f52f3e4ef5311c48e2d8ac0e4f89d15.png

I know it's just a mock, but I tried to stick to BPA based on our needs. Damm, this draft is rich in talent. I have never been this excited about our FO before a draft before. Never gave much thought about it in my younger days under JKC. But ever since I've cared, we've sucked. Till now. Can't wait.

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7 minutes ago, mudhog said:

 

image.png.0f52f3e4ef5311c48e2d8ac0e4f89d15.png

I know it's just a mock, but I tried to stick to BPA based on our needs. Damm, this draft is rich in talent. I have never been this excited about our FO before a draft before. Never gave much thought about it in my younger days under JKC. But ever since I've cared, we've sucked. Till now. Can't wait.

Overall, a great draft and if it fell this way, I'd be happy.  It covers a lot of holes on the team.  Thumbs up.

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I like both Collins and Jamin as prospects, but my preference is Zaven. I believe Jamin's speed and range make him an easier prospect to see translate into our defense at first glance, but when looking deeper into their backgrounds, here's why I prefer Collins.

 

Jamin has the size and speed to play weak side or possibly middle in our base defense. He should be a big upgrade at running down RBs in run fits and tracking crossers in pass coverage. He also translates to our two LB nickel package which we use often. He can fly around, should make plays, and with Rivera and Del Rio's coaching, he looks like he'd be a great addition to our defense. I had hoped he would stay under the radar to last until our second pick. That dream seems to be deferred.

 

I get why many don't see the translation as quickly with Zaven. Collins size and speed, on paper, seem like he wouldn't have a similar evaluation. That's where the "surprises" happen every year around draft time. People get so caught up in big numbers that they forget or don't evenly weigh the film. On film, you see that he is very comfortable moving in space, coverage, reacting in run support, and making plays from all over the second level of the defense. You move him into the strong side in our base defense, and he is still a playmaker in our two LB nickel package. The numbers don't wow you, but you see his athleticism on film. He has also only played LB since college as he was a state championship QB in high school. He is still learning and has a great foundation to be a star in this league from what I see.

 

If either, or Parsons, falls to 19, they have to be a strong consideration. It's an easy choice for me and I'm looking for more LBs sooner than later in the draft. We have two coaches who have worked with and developed multiple HOF LBs in the past 15 years, we should give them a few chances at that with this defense soon.

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46 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

We could also go with Vera-Tucker as our LT, as opposed to Darrisaw

He's more of a OG than OT. 

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2 hours ago, RWJ said:

He's more of a OG than OT. 

 

I agree.

I was saying it could happen, rather than should happen. Maybe Coach sees something that others don't

But if he falls to us in the 2nd, I wouldn't be upset if we took him

 

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12 hours ago, Fresh8686 said:

RAS and all testing should only be a supplement to analysis. The information by itself is useless anyways until it’s compared to tape, because athletic ability is always attenuated by processing speed and technique.   
 

Personally, I also use it for catching guys I haven’t looked at yet that might be worthwhile. But, still you have to cross the bridge of how a players raw tools are harnessed. 
 

Jalen Camp for instance is a raw athlete with an amazing mix of size, speed, and strength but if your drafting him it’s for special teams first and then second is the hope you can mold him into something worthwhile as a WR later on. 

 

I think the main issue with the RAS is that people slightly misinterprete its meaning. It doesn't do anything more than tell you the relative athletic ability of a player compared to all players who tested at the same position since the Combine started. The overall number is just an attempt to operationalize the overall athletic ability in order to make it comparable in a quick and easy way.

However, the actual overall number is also not really that important. It's great way to determine whether someone is a good athlete or not but whether someone scores a 9.7 or a 9.1 overall isn't really that important because people will weigh some parts of the equation differently. I really like the way these numbers are presented though because I can easily assess in which percentile a player ranks in every important athletic category. And in these information boxes lies the true value of the RAS.

 

Someone argued that arm length doesn't factor in and that this is an issue for the RAS. But it is only an issue for the RAS if you think that arm length is an important factor for someone's athletic ability. I would argue that it is not. Longer arms don't make you a better athlete. They might make you a better football player but not a better athlete. Weight and height on the other hand are important factors to give context to speed numbers for example even though I agree that the distinction is a bit fuzzy.

 

The RAS score is important because you need to be a relatively (and that is the crux) good athlete to succeed in the NFL. The numbers show very clearly that the athletic ability is a very important factor to determine the likelihood of a player's NFL success. Someone with a low RAS needs to beat the odds to be successful in the NFL. That doesn't mean he can't be, it also doesn't mean that a great RAS is a surefire way to success - it just means that one has the athletic tools and the other hasn't. So as you said, the RAS needs to be used to supplement every other part of a player evaluation.

However, the information itsef isn't useless just because it lacks further context. Playing the odds is a way to beat a volatile game in the long run and tools like the RAS, even though they are absolutely not perfect, give you a good starting point to do that.

 

 

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6 hours ago, IrepDC said:

 

I get why many don't see the translation as quickly with Zaven. Collins size and speed, on paper, seem like he wouldn't have a similar evaluation. That's where the "surprises" happen every year around draft time. People get so caught up in big numbers that they forget or don't evenly weigh the film. On film, you see that he is very comfortable moving in space, coverage, reacting in run support, and making plays from all over the second level of the defense. You move him into the strong side in our base defense, and he is still a playmaker in our two LB nickel package. The numbers don't wow you, but you see his athleticism on film. He has also only played LB since college as he was a state championship QB in high school. He is still learning and has a great foundation to be a star in this league from what I see.

 

 

I like Zaven.  Been talking about him since early during the college season last year.  My issue with him is for a big dude he's not hot as a run stopper especially going laterally versus forward, missed a lot of tackles compared to his peers, too.   You'd have this image of a 260 pound dude to be a Urlacher level phyisical player who flattens runners but he's inconsistent at best at that.  The fact that he was meh both on speed measures and strength got my attention.  Lanky Jamin Davis out-benched him, too.

 

Davis' recognition skills aren't as fast as Collins.  But his recovery speed is notceably on another level than Collins, ditto his sideline to sideline range, and ditto his tackling ability in open field.

 

I like both players, both are raw to some extent.  

6 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

We could also go with Vera-Tucker as our LT, as opposed to Darrisaw

 

I think Lucas > Vera-Tucker as a LT.  Downgrade if we did that IMO.   But if we want a guard, I think he will be a good one. 

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15 hours ago, Rolo Tomasie said:

It's funny though, some of the same posters here who ridicule RAS will turn around and value a player because his 40 time is great and/or his total tackles in his college career. Really, absent any analysis, how is that any better?

 

SIP hit the nail on the head that this is most evident in the debate about Zaven Collins vs Jamin Davis. I agree that the RAS for Zaven seems inflated because of his size, but also think Jamin is getting too much credit for being very fast on a track and having a lot of tackles in the middle of a crappy Kentucky defense (production, yes....but where is the production of big plays?). I have the same questions as SIP about Zaven's physicality and every-down motivation. But I also see his game tape showing IMO a WAY more instinctive and quick to read and react player than Davis.

This stuff is not captured in RAS OR in 40 times, OR in metrics in a vacuum like "tackles." But RAS and 40 times and tackles do need to be considered. There is no set formula. At some point all of these tools have to be combined with the ol' eye test to make an analysis.

I’m pretty sure this is the point I was making, too. And I agree.

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4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I like both players, both are raw to some extent.  

They are both raw to some extent which is what makes both so much more intriguing to me. Imagine how they will play after a year under their belt in the pros, especially if they have LB coaching over them like WFT offers. As they gain experience their reactions and instincts will increase their game speed. either would be nice upgrades to this already top D.

 

I would be interested to hear how the interviews go as they will be important in any eval. What their teammates and coaches think of their leadership and study qualities among others. 

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16 hours ago, Rolo Tomasie said:

It's funny though, some of the same posters here who ridicule RAS will turn around and value a player because his 40 time is great and/or his total tackles in his college career. Really, absent any analysis, how is that any better?

 

SIP hit the nail on the head that this is most evident in the debate about Zaven Collins vs Jamin Davis. I agree that the RAS for Zaven seems inflated because of his size, but also think Jamin is getting too much credit for being very fast on a track and having a lot of tackles in the middle of a crappy Kentucky defense (production, yes....but where is the production of big plays?). I have the same questions as SIP about Zaven's physicality and every-down motivation. But I also see his game tape showing IMO a WAY more instinctive and quick to read and react player than Davis.

This stuff is not captured in RAS OR in 40 times, OR in metrics in a vacuum like "tackles." But RAS and 40 times and tackles do need to be considered. There is no set formula. At some point all of these tools have to be combined with the ol' eye test to make an analysis.

 

You got to trust your eyes more than anything IMO and then in some case their athleticism can answer remaining questions.  And anything can be contorted to make a point.  I don't really care about the number of tackles either have. But if I did I wouldn't minimize Jamin's tackles by saying it was for a crappy defense though I do understand the angle.   To me a better argument to minimize tackles would be playing against crappy offensive playmakers in a crappy division but that point doesn't fly too easily when you play in the SEC like Jamin did.   

 

 Zaven's big play "production" edge over Jamin is sacks.  Jamin is playing against the SEC, rushing against some dudes who will be playing in the pros.  Zaven is rushing against teams like Tulsa.  A man against boys sacks are easier to do when you being blocked by "just guys".  I like Zaven as a pass rusher but its not like he comes off like a dude with multiple pass rushing moves and is outsmarting blockers.  But his motor and size is just too much for some blockers on the college level, i am not sure if that will be that case as easily in the pros.   Yet I like his potential on that front.  

 

 Zaven's missed tackle rate percentage was almost twice as high as Jamin.   Jamin's run stopping rate was a whopping 20 points higher via PFF grades.   

 

Then you add that according to metrics.  Jamin is faster, more explosive and stronger than Zaven.   I admit the stronger part bothers me a little because it plays against Zaven's athletic hype but also plays into how some say (and I agree) for a dude that big he's surpisingly not a strong/physical tackler at least not from a consistent stand point.  For example Tevin Jenkins was billed as this monster strong guy, he plays like that, and yep his pro day he showed that and more some.  

 

Jamin needs to react quicker in the run game even though I notice some like Pauline tout that as Jamin's strength.  I disagree with him on that. 

 

Zaven's drill is coverage and pass rush IMO.    They used Zaven in coverage a lot and his instincts and reaction time looked really good.  He plays the pass in zone coverage very well. And i do like his potential coming off the edge.  He's a good player.  I wouldn't hate him at 19 to say the least.  He was in the running for me at 19.   But his pro day to me was the gravy to take me off him being my favorite choice there. 

 

I think both of them are raw to an extent and how they were played had an influence on production.  From what I saw Zaven was used to rush more than Jamin.  He played in coverage more.  Jamin had 3 picks which isn't bad for a linebacker.  But Zaven had even more.  Zaven from what I saw played back more.  Both IMO are good players.  I want neither one at 19.  If I had to take one or the other I'd take Jamin by a hair.  I think I'd take Koramoah over both if they feel he's a fit on the defense and not redundant with us having Curl/Collins. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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47 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

They are both raw to some extent which is what makes both so much more intriguing to me. Imagine how they will play after a year under their belt in the pros, especially if they have LB coaching over them like WFT offers. As they gain experience their reactions and instincts will increase their game speed. either would be nice upgrades to this already top D.

 

I would be interested to hear how the interviews go as they will be important in any eval. What their teammates and coaches think of their leadership and study qualities among others. 

 

Yep they are both raw but very talented.  My quirk with our defense is not to get destroyed by outside zone runs, screens, and just big plays in general in the run game (breakaway runs once the backs find daylight) and IMO Jamin is the clear better player to address that issue.  That's probably my best summary of why i prefer him over Zaven.   

 

To add to Jamin's freakishness.  Even though Zaven is a bigger dude, their wingspans/arm length is almost identical.

 

IMO the 10 times for LBs are as relevant as their 40s. Jamin had the best 10 time among the linebackers, beating even Parsons with a freakish 1.53.

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yep they are both raw but very talented.  My quirk with our defense is not to get destroyed by outside zone runs, screens, and just big plays in general in the run game (breakaway runs once the backs find daylight) and IMO Jamin is the clear better player to address that issue.  That's probably my best summary of why i prefer him over Zaven.   

Your quirk about the outside is on point. Another quirk can be made of the team not getting torched on the inside. This of course is why we all agree there needs to be an upgrade at LB and FS even though RR says he is good with who they have a LB. One thing that stands out is the amount of time and effort they have spent with 2-4 round FS prospects, fully expect one by the 4th at the latest 🙂

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https://walterfootball.com/prospectMeetings/byteam

 

Updated list of prospects the WFT have had meetings with thus far

  • Brevin Jordan, Tight End, Miami (VIR)
  • Rondale Moore, Wide Receiver, Purdue (VIR)
  • Asante Samuel Jr., Cornerback, Florida State (VIR)
  • Ihmir Smith-Marsette, Wide Receiver, Iowa (VIR)
  • Darius Stills, Defensive Tackle, West Virginia (VIR)
  • Mike Strachan, Wide Receiver, Charleston (VIR)
  • Tommy Tremble, TE, Notre Dame (VIR)
  • Trill Williams, Cornerback, Syracuse (VIR)
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I’m all for beefing up the offence. So I would love Najee Harris. It opens up so much and makes our offenders incredibly diverse.

 

But the guy that gets me most excited (short-term and long-term) is Rondale Moore. I’d take him @ 19.

 

But I’m not going to complain if the team is practical and drafts a OT, LB or even CB. 
 

The Team has so many options, it’s going to get an upgrade at 19 no matter. It’s the 2nd and 3rd round picks, that I’m hopeful there will be some good talent that matches needs.

 

But Im not confident. The players we want seem to get snatched up the pick before us.

 

 

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Greg Newsome wasn't what I expected.  He's not the kind of player middle tier Big 10 programs usually get, he's an SEC type athlete.  But Northwestern was his hometown team.

 

I liked what I saw and I think he's the CJ Henderson of this year's class.  Sneaky good explosiveness.  Very fluid hips and plays with really strong balance.  Good length and functional strength.  Excellent long speed, particularly for his height.  And most important, he's got excellent coverage instincts.  He sniffs out deceptive routes and release trickery and has very good recovery athleticism and balance to stay in phase through the double move.  He's hyper aggressive too, which can sometimes be bad.  Lots of borderline downfield grabs and lots of pass interference flags in his play.  You want to refine his hands without taking away that aggressiveness though, because he is unusually good at playing the ball, especially from man.  Good to the point where it's the defining element of his style of play IMO, and the amount of deflections he piled up is probably the most in the class even though he missed a lot of games due to injuries.

 

That said, even though he has the instincts and length and aggressiveness to contest everything and break up long throws, he doesn't have that elite level of body control to make those spectacular INTs in man coverage, and he's not like Farley as an alpha ballhawk in zone.

 

The other thing that really stands out with Newsome is his discipline and physicality in run support.  He's pretty strong playing force and he really seems to relish his opportunities to come downhill and stick open field tackles.  They don't come around often because he's a deep zone and press man corner, so he seems to like to make a statement when he finally gets to hit a ballcarrier on a screen or something like that.

 

Some potential negatives: injury history could be a concern.  Aforementioned issues with PI penalties.  Looks a bit lanky, and simply has a thin frame that won't carry a lot of mass and thus his functional strength will probably never be as good as burlier corners like Horn or Surtain (even though I think he uses what he has more aggressively than them).  But that's honestly about it.  Otherwise he has the length, athleticism, instincts, and aggressive mentality to be a star corner and take on that role of number one guy for his team whose job is to lock down the opponent's best receiver like a Darius Slay or Xavier Rhodes type.  I also like that he's equally experienced and skilled in cover 3 and press man, so you can mix things up for the offense with him and make them have to guess more.  But I think the main thing is just put him in press man and force opposing QBs to make plays into tight coverage on the outside, and most of them are not going to be sharp enough to beat him much.

 

Given that Henderson was picked 9th overall last year, I think Newsome offers value at 19.  I still like Darrisaw over Newsome, but he's in the mix at 19 for me.  I think he's better than the LBers, except for maybe Owusu-Koromoah, but he plays cleaner and feels like less of a gamble than Owusu-Koromoah.  The position value you get from picking him is also outstanding as man coverage on the outside stud corners like him are expensive, so that weights into the consideration for him.

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2 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

I’m all for beefing up the offence. So I would love Najee Harris. It opens up so much and makes our offenders incredibly diverse.

 

But the guy that gets me most excited (short-term and long-term) is Rondale Moore. I’d take him @ 19.

 

But I’m not going to complain if the team is practical and drafts a OT, LB or even CB. 
 

The Team has so many options, it’s going to get an upgrade at 19 no matter. It’s the 2nd and 3rd round picks, that I’m hopeful there will be so good talent that matches needs.

 

But Im not confident. The players we want seem to get snatched up the pick before us.

 

 

I've been on the Najee Harris bus for quite a while. Could you imagine the possibilities with Harris in the backfield and Gibson motioning into the slot? Then they both go into passing routes? We would give defenses fits. Agree with you, the versatility makes the possibilities endless.

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11 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

I've been on the Najee Harris bus for quite a while. Could you imagine the possibilities with Harris in the backfield and Gibson motioning into the slot? Then they both go into passing routes? We would give defenses fits. Agree with you, the versatility makes the possibilities endless.

 

Not only that..... we could truly exploit mismatches. It's an advantage that this team hasn't enjoyed the benefit of.... for a very long time.

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18 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Greg Newsome wasn't what I expected.  He's not the kind of player middle tier Big 10 programs usually get, he's an SEC type athlete.  But Northwestern was his hometown team.

 

I liked what I saw and I think he's the CJ Henderson of this year's class.  Sneaky good explosiveness.  Very fluid hips and plays with really strong balance.  Good length and functional strength.  Excellent long speed, particularly for his height.  And most important, he's got excellent coverage instincts.  He sniffs out deceptive routes and release trickery and has very good recovery athleticism and balance to stay in phase through the double move.  He's hyper aggressive too, which can sometimes be bad.  Lots of borderline downfield grabs and lots of pass interference flags in his play.  You want to refine his hands without taking away that aggressiveness though, because he is unusually good at playing the ball, especially from man.  Good to the point where it's the defining element of his style of play IMO, and the amount of deflections he piled up is probably the most in the class even though he missed a lot of games due to injuries.

 

That said, even though he has the instincts and length and aggressiveness to contest everything and break up long throws, he doesn't have that elite level of body control to make those spectacular INTs in man coverage, and he's not like Farley as an alpha ballhawk in zone.

 

The other thing that really stands out with Newsome is his discipline and physicality in run support.  He's pretty strong playing force and he really seems to relish his opportunities to come downhill and stick open field tackles.  They don't come around often because he's a deep zone and press man corner, so he seems to like to make a statement when he finally gets to hit a ballcarrier on a screen or something like that.

 

Some potential negatives: injury history could be a concern.  Aforementioned issues with PI penalties.  Looks a bit lanky, and simply has a thin frame that won't carry a lot of mass and thus his functional strength will probably never be as good as burlier corners like Horn or Surtain (even though I think he uses what he has more aggressively than them).  But that's honestly about it.  Otherwise he has the length, athleticism, instincts, and aggressive mentality to be a star corner and take on that role of number one guy for his team whose job is to lock down the opponent's best receiver like a Darius Slay or Xavier Rhodes type.  I also like that he's equally experienced and skilled in cover 3 and press man, so you can mix things up for the offense with him and make them have to guess more.  But I think the main thing is just put him in press man and force opposing QBs to make plays into tight coverage on the outside, and most of them are not going to be sharp enough to beat him much.

 

Given that Henderson was picked 9th overall last year, I think Newsome offers value at 19.  I still like Darrisaw over Newsome, but he's in the mix at 19 for me.  I think he's better than the LBers, except for maybe Owusu-Koromoah, but he plays cleaner and feels like less of a gamble than Owusu-Koromoah.  The position value you get from picking him is also outstanding as man coverage on the outside stud corners like him are expensive, so that weights into the consideration for him.

 

 

I could see Arizona taking him at 16 with Farley's injury probably pushing him out of the first round.  I figure Surtain and Horn will be gone by 16 (Detroit, Denver, Dallas, and Philly could all take corners).

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1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I'm not getting my hopes up for a RB.  No matter how obvious it is that Harris or Etienne would be the BPA, I don't think we'll pick them.

 

 

Maybe Ron is playing poker?  He hasn't mentioned RB at all this off-season.  I still think Miami (and maybe NE at 15) could take Najee as he's a perfect fit for both teams.  Eitienne is a little more tricky.  If we traded down (I think Darisow is gone by 14 a the Chargers and Vikings both desperately need LT), maybe he's the target.  RB is a major need area that no one from the media has talked about (obviously we have).

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5 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I'm not getting my hopes up for a RB.  No matter how obvious it is that Harris or Etienne would be the BPA, I don't think we'll pick them.

 

Me either.  If drafting a RB early is on their radar screen they are doing an amazing smoke screen job on it.  The year they took Guice, they telegraphed a lot via rumors/press comferences/interviews that a RB was hot on their list.

 

Will see if it hold but the rumors are now are hot on LT, LB, TE early.  Darkhorse FS.  And depth at WR, CB, RB.   

2 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

Maybe Ron is playing poker?  He hasn't mentioned RB at all this off-season.  I still think Miami (and maybe NE at 15) could take Najee as he's a perfect fit for both teams.  Eitienne is a little more tricky.  If we traded down (I think Darisow is gone by 14 a the Chargers and Vikings both desperately need LT), maybe he's the target.  RB is a major need area that no one from the media has talked about (obviously we have).

 

He could be but he seems to be so brutally honest that I doubt it.  And the leaks for FA that Keim had for example happened just about to a tee.

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

Your quirk about the outside is on point. Another quirk can be made of the team not getting torched on the inside. This of course is why we all agree there needs to be an upgrade at LB and FS even though RR says he is good with who they have a LB. One thing that stands out is the amount of time and effort they have spent with 2-4 round FS prospects, fully expect one by the 4th at the latest 🙂

 

RR called out thre MLB play multiple times.  He even flat out said in an interview when asked what's missing with this defense to match the best defenses he had in Carolina -- his response the MLBs.

 

Though he did say Bostic improved towards the end of the season.  In his last press conference, he mentioned he'd like to add LBs. 

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3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Me either.  If drafting a RB early is on their radar screen they are doing an amazing smoke screen job on it.  The year they took Guice, they telegraphed a lot via rumors/press comferences/interviews that a RB was hot on their list.

 

Will see if it hold but the rumors are now are hot on LT, LB, TE early.  Darkhorse FS.  And depth at WR, CB, RB.   

 

He could be but he seems to be so brutally honest that I doubt it.  And the leaks for FA that Keim had for example happened just about to a tee.

 

 

We didn't really leak anything about Fitzpatrick and Jackson.  Those signings came out of left field.  Samuel was more of an inference since he was a Panther and his ties to Ron, Hurney, and Scott Turner.

 

Like last year, we all knew we were taking Chase at 2, but Gibson was a shock pick to us at least as RB wasn't on the radar.

 

Plus, Doug was almost happy to divulge our intentions on the draft.  Ron and company are far more secretive.  Ron is honest after the fact (like the Stafford pursuit).

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