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2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread


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2 minutes ago, Panninho said:

I don't think that Harris would be that big of a reach at 19 and I would definitely add a RB in the later rounds if a nice one sits there (or if Harris somehow makes it to our second round pick). But I agree with not prioritizing the position over OT, LB, S and potentially WR. I'd also draft a CB before going RB if it makes sense.

 

Sure you could argue greater "needs" but when drafting at 19 there are a slew of variables in front of us. Drafting the BPA even at RB isn't a need per say but the value that could provide to our offense would be awesome.

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5 minutes ago, Panninho said:

I don't think that Harris would be that big of a reach at 19 and I would definitely add a RB in the later rounds if a nice one sits there (or if Harris somehow makes it to our second round pick). But I agree with not prioritizing the position over OT, LB, S and potentially WR. I'd also draft a CB before going RB if it makes sense.

After the tape I've watch on Harris, he to me reminds me of a slightly taller Trent Richardson.. and we all know how well his career turned out lol

Edited by ZarG3
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16 minutes ago, ZarG3 said:

Harris isn't on the same level as say McCaffrey or Barkley so drafting him at 19 would be a reach in my opinion. We have more pressing needs at LB, OT, and QB. I suspect gibson will have a break out year, mckissic can serve the back up role decently well as seen from his time when gibson was hurt last season. Peyton barber was utilized because he literally never fumbles, out of 645 attempts in his career he's only fumbled 4 times and only lost 2. Throw in samuel on some gadgets and I think the RB position is not a position of necessity this offseason.

 

What happens if Gibson gets hurt? You want Peyton Barber as the lead back? I'm not saying we have to go RB in the first but there is value with Harris and Etienne at 19. 

 

If not I would look for one later in the draft round 4-5. Either the cream of the crop or take a flier on a prospect. 

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2 minutes ago, SkinsFootball said:

 

Sure you could argue greater "needs" but when drafting at 19 there are a slew of variables in front of us. Drafting the BPA even at RB isn't a need per say but the value that could provide to our offense would be awesome.

 

It isn't a 'need' though?

 

Gibson is not a bell cow. He doesn't have the physical make-up.... and already missed time last year with turf toe. If Gibson misses time... how does everyone feel about the run game then? 17 games.... we need a legitimate partner for him.

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3 minutes ago, SkinsFootball said:

 

Sure you could argue greater "needs" but when drafting at 19 there are a slew of variables in front of us. Drafting the BPA even at RB isn't a need per say but the value that could provide to our offense would be awesome.

I am not saying they shouldn't draft BPA, it's just that from my point of view it's highly unlikely a RB is a BPA at 19 because for me the positional value is that much lower than e.g. OT. And positional value is IMO a really important factor when determining the BPA.

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58 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Gibson is your short yardage/goal line guy as well as a Swiss Army knife if we have Harris (who can also do the short yardage and goal line stuff)

I think relying on Gibson to stay healthy all year is a long shot, a healthy #1 back against Tampa could have swung that game in WFT's favor. We really need an every down back to compliment Gibson. Not sure I want to use that first pick on a RB though.

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14 minutes ago, Idaho fan said:

Harris could be a game changer.  I like game changers at #19.  I know I'm dreaming but would love Pitts - a potentially great TE would be an awesome addition.  My guess is we end up with someone like S Trevon Moehrig.

 

Speaking of that, Schrager just mocked Moehrig to us at #19.  He has us doing that instead of taking Horn.  Everybody has different DB rankings and wants different things from DB's.  Myself, I see no safeties that are round 1 quality, and I think Day 2 is where the value maxes out for the top talent.  I know we've got some disagreements here, and some think there are at least 2 safeties worth a round 1 pick.

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/peter-schrager-2021-nfl-mock-draft-1-0-pats-trade-up-for-justin-fields-cardinals

 

Other things from that mock.  He's not as high on Bateman as others.  He's got 5 (6 if you count Pitts) WR's in the first.  Toney, Rondale Moore, and Marshall make it.  He's also got Davis Mills going #32 to the Bucs.  He doesn't have Jamin Davis in the 1st, but does have Nick Bolton...which confuses me.

 

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4 minutes ago, SkinsFootball said:

 

What happens if Gibson gets hurt? You want Peyton Barber as the lead back? I'm not saying we have to go RB in the first but there is value with Harris and Etienne at 19. 

 

If not I would look for one later in the draft round 4-5. Either the cream of the crop or take a flier on a prospect. 

 

Michael Carter in the 3rd round.  Great vision, sets up blocks well, has a knack for using his short height to hide behind the OL and...for lack of a better word...surprise the LB's with where he's going.

 

Carter isn't a bellcow, but he's going to deserve to get some carries from Gibson.  He looks like he's consistently making the right decision, the right cut, and the right move to pick up extra yards.  He's not going to truck a defender and fall forward for 4 more yards while dragging someone hanging onto his leg.  But he's going to achieve the same result by setting up an open lane and cutting into it for those 4 more yards.

 

I'm high on Carter.  JD McKissic is a free agent in 2022.  Carter profiles as a 3rd down back that should get more early down work than McKissic did.

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2 hours ago, IrepDC said:

I see some of the lack of physicality with Collins, but it comes off to me more as a player still learning / mastering a new position than a guy who is not willing to make contact. This is where perspectives may differ. For me though, I'm not worried about missed tackles or run support with Collins. He has enough run support plays on film to show he is capable. Then you just have to do a bit of projecting how our coaches would develop him. He already moves around the field much better and more fluid than a guy his size should, he already shows playmaker instincts and on field awareness. He simply needs his technique developed a bit more and he will be a star. I feel similar about Jamin getting coached up. I project both of them will need coaching to fine tune their technique. All in all I wouldn't be disappointed with either, but I'm not letting the numbers disprove what Collins has on film.

 

I think Zaven is given more of a break by some over Jamin maybe because we've been talking about him for so long.  And I played my part in that by stressing Zaven early on in the draft process. I've posted plenty about him.   I think Zaven's size gives him more of a cool/sexy draft story.   And lol, I've been pulled in so many debates about him of late because I don't see him now as LB #1 and explained why.  But that doesn't mean I dislike him all of a sudden as a player.  I haven't turned from being a big Zaven guy to anti-Zaven.  I still like him but he's not my top want at 19.  And I'd take Koramoah or Jamin over him.  And I didn't feel that way earlier on in the draft process. 

 

 I don't think his inconsistent play as far as open field tackling is about inexperience.  Could it be fixed?  Maybe.  4.67 speed and 19 reps on the bench doesn't scream to me as the traits for a ferocious beast of a sideline to sideline tackling force.  It wasn't about his pro day numbers in a vaccum for me but its about how it matches his actual play.  I said in advance there are some players I do care about their pro day numbers, Zaven was one of them, because to me their athletic potential is a big part of their narrative and it could maybe answer some of the question marks.

 

I thought Ledyard brought it home perfectly.  He's one of my favorite draft analyists.  He wants a LB with real speed who can cover ground, not someone who isn't fast but is fast for his size.  And Zaven for a dude with that type girth doesn't play with the type of physicality that you'd expect.   So that makes his "meh" bench press performance somewhat relevant to me.  

 

I think if there is a dude who deserves more of a curve and slack as for their play and upside it would be Jamin not Zaven.

 

A.  It's Jamin who hasn't played that long.  Zaven is a 3 year starter.  Jamin 1 year. 

B.  It's Jamin who played in the SEC with much tougher competion than Zaven has

C.  Jamin's lack of experience coupled with superior athletic traits across the board points to his upside being more intriguing.

 

Zaven to me is an interesting player.  His size would make you think he's an old school downhill thumper LB ala Ray Lewis.  But he isn't.  He's also not a sideline to sideline run stopper either.  Then you add IMO he's not the most sound tackler in open field.  And he had one of the higher missed tackle rates among the college LBs in this draft.  And if bench pressing measures strength to some extent, he's not that physically strong for LB.  then you add PFF who watches all of his games versus just a selection of them, graded him with one of their lowest grades against the run among the LBs in this draft.  That's a lot in the soup to ignore if we are counting on him as being stout against the run in the pros. 

 

And, I don't think you can coach sideline to sideline range which is my main beef with him. 

 

But Zaven is special in pass coverage. Great instincts on that front.   High intangibles.  And while i have to factor his inferior competition when I think about his pass rushing, he does rush with quite the motor and ferocity where I think he'd be a great tool here as to double A blitzes, etc.  Overall, good player.   I think he has a high floor.  But Jamin's upside intrigues me more. 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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How cool is it that we're all in the same boat about drafting this year. No fighting. We all have a preference and things we like. We're all pretty much in agreement that it's Oline or LB probably. DB, WR, TE are some other positions, but not as dire.

 

We're coming together as a team for real. It's awesome having great leadership throughout the organization. 

20 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Speaking of that, Schrager just mocked Moehrig to us at #19.  

I'd love that.

21 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Speaking of that, Schrager just mocked Moehrig to us at #19.  

I'd love that.

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53 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But Zaven is special in pass coverage. Great instincts on that front.   High intangibles.  And while i have to factor his inferior competition when I think about his pass rushing, he does rush with quite the motor and ferocity where I think he'd be a great tool here as to double A blitzes, etc.  Overall, good player.   I think he has a high floor.  But Jamin's upside intrigues me more. 

I am usually pretty conservative when it comes to draft selections. That's why I have hard time getting onboard with trading a ton for Lance. If they feel drafting a QB in 2021 is vital then do it in the 3rd round with one of the 4 discussed heavily. 

I want them to stay at 19 and take Darrisaw and if he isn't there I'd like the trade back.

If the decision is to draft Zaven or Jamin (or JIOK) I am good with that. I take they have done their homework and identified them as their best option. Jamin is risky as he does not have much experience but he seems to have many great qualities and is an immediate upgrade to the current LB group

 

The Jamin article posted earlier was a great look at him as a person, great character. 

Edited by DWinzit
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57 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Speaking of that, Schrager just mocked Moehrig to us at #19.  He has us doing that instead of taking Horn.  Everybody has different DB rankings and wants different things from DB's.  Myself, I see no safeties that are round 1 quality, and I think Day 2 is where the value maxes out for the top talent.  I know we've got some disagreements here, and some think there are at least 2 safeties worth a round 1 pick.

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/peter-schrager-2021-nfl-mock-draft-1-0-pats-trade-up-for-justin-fields-cardinals

 

Other things from that mock.  He's not as high on Bateman as others.  He's got 5 (6 if you count Pitts) WR's in the first.  Toney, Rondale Moore, and Marshall make it.  He's also got Davis Mills going #32 to the Bucs.  He doesn't have Jamin Davis in the 1st, but does have Nick Bolton...which confuses me.

 

 

I saw it this morning.  Also Koramoah and Darrisaw go before our pick.

 

As for Moehrig.  I've talked about him some in the past....

 

He IMO is a rare do it all safety.  Coverage, against the run.  But what strikes me the most about him is his instincts in coverage.  He doesn't get fooled much and that's rare as far as the college safeties I've watched over the years.

 

Sean Taylor although was a beast of an athlete IMO wasn't that hot in coverage until his last season when his ability to recognize pass patterns matched his freakish athleticism.

 

Moehig doesn't have freakish athleticism but his instincts are so good both in the pass and run game.  He's not a freakish speed guy or tackler.  But he's one of the rare jack of all trades (coverage, ball skills, slot, can play in the box) with his mastery IMO being defending against routes.   He's also good in the slot.

 

It seems like the criticism I keep reading about him from dudes like Bullock among others is that he might not be a fit here if they go more cover 1 because he's not a single high type FS.

 

I don't really get that.  Yeah he played split safety coverage/quarters and slot in college.  But that was the scheme, why fault him for that?   He can't play single high just because that wasn't the scheme in college?   IMO he has the range and instincts to play single high.  

 

Would I take him at 19?  Probably not.  But IMO he's a rare high floor safety prospect.  

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1 hour ago, SkinsFootball said:

 

What happens if Gibson gets hurt? You want Peyton Barber as the lead back? I'm not saying we have to go RB in the first but there is value with Harris and Etienne at 19. 

 

If not I would look for one later in the draft round 4-5. Either the cream of the crop or take a flier on a prospect. 


Yea I wouldn’t use my first round pick on a back.  Like you said I’d pick up a solid back in the later rounds.

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17 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I am usually pretty conservative when it comes to draft selections. That's why I have hard time getting onboard with trading a ton for Lance. If they feel drafting a QB in 2021 is vital then do it in the 3rd round with one of the 4 discussed heavily. 

I want them to stay at 19 and take Darrisaw and if he isn't there I'd like the trade back.

If the decision is to draft Zaven or Jamin (or JIOK) I am good with that. I take they have done their homework and identified them as their best option. Jamin is risky as he does not have much experience but he seems to have many great qualities and is an immediate upgrade to the current LB group

 

The Jamin article posted earlier was a great look at him as a person, great character. 

 

I love Trey Lance's traits but tough for me to project if that's enough for him to shine.  But if I had to pick a trade up target it would be Justin Fields.  As for trading the store for either.  For me it would depend on trade capital.  I trust the powers that be for now who run the show so I'd support within reason almost anything they do.

 

If I am reading the tea leaves my guess right now is a trade up for QB is on the table but not at #4.  They'd wait for draft day and go with the flow and if an opportunity arises they'd pounce.  My guess is that opportunity doesn't arise.

 

I am having a hard time gauging what SF will do and how these QBs will fall.  Everyone is so all over the place.  Mike Jones was just on and said he doesn't think SF will take Mac Jones and Jones could fall to the teens.  But I've heard things all over the map about Lance and Fields.  So I've given up trying to guess this. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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1 hour ago, Panninho said:

I am not saying they shouldn't draft BPA, it's just that from my point of view it's highly unlikely a RB is a BPA at 19 because for me the positional value is that much lower than e.g. OT. And positional value is IMO a really important factor when determining the BPA.

I always thought that BPA was its own value outside of positional value. Obviously its always a blend of both but in my mind when people say BPA they mean the highest graded player regardless of position (except special teams positions) 

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1 hour ago, SkinsFootball said:

 

Sure you could argue greater "needs" but when drafting at 19 there are a slew of variables in front of us. Drafting the BPA even at RB isn't a need per say but the value that could provide to our offense would be awesome.

 

You really need to define value. When talking value, and seeing that the highest paid RBs are guys drafted in Rounds 2, 3 and 5 ... it makes you really question whether paying $2-3m a year to a 19th pick is really "value" when you can find $1m a year guys in R3-5 who could easily be just as impactful. Rhamondre Stephenson, Trey Sermon. Two guys that are good complements. There is almost negative value to drafting any RB in the 1st round and I won't be convinced otherwise.

 

$2m for a RB1a when you could pay that for a LT for 5 years?

 

I would argue that the proof in finding elite talent beyond R1 PLUS the fact that this player is likely a contributor for 5-6 years max ... makes drafting a RB in Round 1 borderline malpractice. I don't care WHO it is.

Edited by JamesMadisonSkins
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4 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

You really need to define value. When talking value, and seeing that the highest paid RBs are guys drafted in Rounds 2, 3 and 5 ... it makes you really question whether paying $2-3m a year to a 19th pick is really "value" when you can find $1m a year guys in R3-5 who could easily be just as impactful. Rhamondre Stephenson, Trey Sermon. Two guys that are good complements. There is almost negative value to drafting any RB in the 1st round and I won't be convinced otherwise.

 

$2m for a RB1a when you could pay that for a LT for 5 years?

While of course not on the same level, there are a bunch of good 3rd to 5th round RB's like Stephenson and Sermon that could be big contributors to the RB mix. 

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Ugh I would rather Pitts stayed outside the division. I can see the appeal to several teams wanting to jump for him. Seems like he is an exceptional talent that is going to elevate the level of play around him too. 
 

Much like Chase Young, you are very fortunate to get hold of such rare elite talent.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I saw it this morning.  Also Koramoah and Darrisaw go before our pick.

 

As for Moehrig.  I've talked about him some in the past....

 

He IMO is a rare do it all safety.  Coverage, against the run.  But what strikes me the most about him is his instincts in coverage.  He doesn't get fooled much and that's rare as far as the college safeties I've watched over the years.

 

Sean Taylor although was a beast of an athlete IMO wasn't that hot in coverage until his last season when his ability to recognize pass patterns matched his freakish athleticism.

 

Moehig doesn't have freakish athleticism but his instincts are so good both in the pass and run game.  He's not a freakish speed guy or tackler.  But he's one of the rare jack of all trades (coverage, ball skills, slot, can play in the box) with his mastery IMO being defending against routes.   He's also good in the slot.

 

It seems like the criticism I keep reading about him from dudes like Bullock among others is that he might not be a fit here if they go more cover 1 because he's not a single high type FS.

 

I don't really get that.  Yeah he played split safety coverage/quarters and slot in college.  But that was the scheme, why fault him for that?   He can't play single high just because that wasn't the scheme in college?   IMO he has the range and instincts to play single high.  

 

Would I take him at 19?  Probably not.  But IMO he's a rare high floor safety prospect.  

 

I need to find some better film of Moehrig or something (in fairness it was a month or two ago when I latched watched a cutup of him), because everyone is high on Moehrig and says he can do "XYZ" and I wasn't seeing it.

 

So there's gotta be some juicy film I need to watch.

 

P.S.  Is it just me, or is there a serious lack of decent cutups on Youtube of players this year?  Most of the Jamin Davis cutups are like low quality 10fps and so jerky I can't tell much of anything.

P.P.S.  Ok, just watched some more tape on him.  Still believe he's not a Day 1 guy.

 

It's difficult, him, like Richie Grant profile as being plus coverage defenders while doing certain things, but there's really not enough or any snaps showing them doing other things you also want to see.  Projecting college safeties to guys who can play Single High in the NFL has to be one of the rarest things ever to do well.

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29 minutes ago, XxSpearheadxX said:

I always thought that BPA was its own value outside of positional value. Obviously its always a blend of both but in my mind when people say BPA they mean the highest graded player regardless of position (except special teams positions) 

If positional value wouldn't factor in, why would we not consider punters, kickers or long snappers in the first if they were really good? I know what you mean and people probably have a slightly different way of going about this but for me BPA means to stick to your big board and there positional value matters.

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2 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

I need to find some better film of Moehrig or something (in fairness it was a month or two ago when I latched watched a cutup of him), because everyone is high on Moehrig and says he can do "XYZ" and I wasn't seeing it.

 

So there's gotta be some juicy film I need to watch.

 

P.S.  Is it just me, or is there a serious lack of decent cutups on Youtube of players this year?  Most of the Jamin Davis cutups are like low quality 10fps and so jerky I can't tell much of anything.

P.P.S.  Ok, just watched some more tape on him.  Still believe he's not a Day 1 guy.

 

It's difficult, him, like Richie Grant profile as being plus coverage defenders while doing certain things, but there's really not enough or any snaps showing them doing other things you also want to see.  Projecting college safeties to guys who can play Single High in the NFL has to be one of the rarest things ever to do well.

 

It's definitely the case on some players where I can't find enough to watch to really judge.  It's been awhile for me on Moehrig but found enough to my eyes to judge and I liked him.

 

As for Jamin and some other players, if I just segment it on them specifically I don't find enough.  The trick I learned is to pull the whole team.  So Kentucky against Old Miss for example.  That helped me find footage that I otherwise couldn't.  

 

Before last years draft it was a lot easier to just plug in the player and find plenty.  This time we have to dig more to find it.  Some players though I still haven't found enough to judge.

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