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2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread


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2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Zaven to me is an interesting player.  His size would make you think he's an old school downhill thumper LB ala Ray Lewis.  But he isn't. 

 

I'm not sure I agree with some of your takes on Zaven, this one in particular.  IMO Zaven is quite physical into contact, especially in the hole.  He's a force who routinely blows ballcarriers back when he comes at them downhill.  And Zaven shrugs off blockers and plays through them better than any of the other LBers in the class.  I think he is a far more powerful player than Jamin, who is kind of a lanky try-hard with a hook or by crook approach to getting guys down solo in the open field.  And he's not as much of a risk-reward hitter as Owusu-Koromoah, who sells out for big blows and had the offense and the back end help on his D to make all of his mistakes less impactful.

 

Zaven doesn't need any help to take a ballcarrier down in the open.  There are so many solo stops in his film where it's effortless and he's getting safeties and tackles for big losses.  If you want a thumping, dominating run defense, Zaven is the best choice.  His size + instincts and ability to play through blocks is how you stop a lot of runs at and behind the LoS instead of chasing them down field, and make offenses gunshy and quicker to abandon the run.

 

I'm not really moved by PFF's run defense grades because they are trash at evaluating run game play.

 

I think Zaven is definitely a much better player right now than Jamin.  I can buy an upside argument in favor of Jamin to some extent because he's got a lot of growth left in him after only 10 career games of significant snaps.  But he's got to do a lot of growth just to catch up to where Zaven is right now, and it's no guarantee that will ever happen.  And Zaven's ceiling is also sky high.  He is a king-sized linebacker like Bernardrick McKinney except that he's fast and super fluid.  He walks around at 260 and has elite change of direction ability and body control for his size and he also has special instincts.  He won every defensive award in college football this season except for the one that Owusu-Koromoah managed to beat him out for.  He was easily the best defensive player in college football this year, and what he does should translate to the NFL.  I like Jamin Davis and I think I was one of his first fans in this thread, but he's not as good as Zaven IMO.  Zaven is a potential star, especially if you give him to this coaching staff and put him behind this DL.  He's the kind of presence that can define the identity of your team, and he and Owusu-Koromoah are the only LBers worth taking at 19.  Jamin is a second rounder based on resume and film, who ran and jumped himself into the first round.  But the team who picks him over Zaven is going to regret it IMO.

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these are Collins’ perceived ‘strengths & weaknesses’ listed on the main NFL draft site. No idea if the analysis is at all accurate, but it most have some basis I guess..

Strengths
  • Three-year starter and winner of Bronco Nagurski Award.
  • Consistent, impact production in all three seasons.
  • Freaky combination of size and athleticism for linebacker.
  • Range to make plays all over the field.
  • Sees opportunities to swoop downhill and attack holes in blocking scheme.
  • Size and knock-back power to take on blocks.
  • Burst and length to track down runners from backside.
  • Terrific second effort as a tackler.
  • Recovers from blocks and gets back into the play.
  • Plays disciplined team defense, filling his fits and spilling plays wide.
  • Good awareness of air traffic in zone coverage.
  • Reads quarterback and slides into passing lanes.
  • Had four interceptions in 2020, including two he returned for touchdowns.
Weaknesses
  • Would like to see a little more alpha aggression from him.
  • Doesn't always impose size and control blockers with his hands.
  • Instincts and diagnosis are just average.
  • Needs deeper fill to leverage and constrict run lane.
  • Can improve pathways getting from Point A to Point B.
  • Rushed pursuit and overran cutbacks versus Oklahoma State's outside zone.
  • Needs time to gather and change direction due to size.
  • Average reactive agility in the hole.
  • Not a natural rusher when turned loose off the edge.
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Falcons love a big trade. Here’s the jump for Julio, albeit a decade ago...
 

Cleveland Browns received:

Picks No. 26, 59, 124 in the 2011 draft

Picks No. 22, 118 in the 2012 draft

 

Atlanta Falcons received: 

Pick No. 6 in the 2011 draft

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I think Collins just does everything so naturally smooth, that it makes it look like he isn't nasty. Smooth is the word that keeps coming back. 

 

The idea of having Sweat lite, behind Sweat with long arms batting and catching balls is just so exciting. 

 

Can't imagine a better MLB to put behind this line.

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6 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

these are Collins’ perceived ‘strengths & weaknesses’ listed on the main NFL draft site. No idea if the analysis is at all accurate, but it most have some basis I guess..

 

Those are Lance Zierlein's takes, and he is very good at this.  But not infallible.  I have some specific disagreements with his takes on Zaven.

 

- Average reactive agility & needing time to gather himself to change directions are off IMO.  Look at how bouncey he is on this rep, and how effortlessly he mirrors the QB from his spy role:

 

giphy.gif

 

His agility is one of his most eye-popping strengths to me.

 

- Instincts and diagnosis are just average is off too.  I think he's super instinctive and it comes from him being one of the biggest guys on the field and being able to read everything happening around him without having to rush.  He's got the big play production that comes from having superior instincts.

 

And while I do agree that he doesn't use his hands to pattycake with climbing OLs, I don't really view that as a weakness in his game.  He doesn't have to use his hands to play through those dudes.  He just puts his shoulder into their chest and goes where he wants to go.  That's one of the luxuries of being as big as he is.

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We certainly have stacks of options this draft. Very comfortable with where we are at the moment. 
 

Got to admit though, my head has been turned back to Lance as it was months ago. The cost likely make us all puke, but a combination of Fitz and Lance at QB post draft is probably my preferred outcome right now.

 

I think we can get immediate contributions from round 3/4/5 picks that fit with our other immediate needs.

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Those are Lance Zierlein's takes, and he is very good at this.  But not infallible.  I have some specific disagreements with his takes on Zaven.


thanks appreciate that take. 
 

I’m personally kind of more reserved on Collins. Not sure I see that dynamic first trigger. I keep seeing 3-4 OLB type traits. But I’m no expert by any means so appreciate the differing views on here. Very insightful as ever.

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I’m almost step for step in line with Steve on Zaven. My reservation is if we are going to be a primarily man team it may be best to look elsewhere. But a mix or a zone team and he is absolutely a very real and solid option. And the guy absolutely comes down hill and hits people.

 

He is not great at block destruction, though.

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16 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I think Collins just does everything so naturally smooth, that it makes it look like he isn't nasty. Smooth is the word that keeps coming back. 

 

The idea of having Sweat lite, behind Sweat with long arms batting and catching balls is just so exciting. 

 

Can't imagine a better MLB to put behind this line.

 

That's a good take.  That's an intimidating amount of size and length in the front seven.

 

The thing that blows me away about Zaven is how natural his size is.  He's got the thighs and legs of an offensive lineman and the long arms and huge hands of a defensive end, but it's all packaged into a guy with the fluidity of like a safety.  And he's a kid who came up playing the game with a quarterback's view of the field.

 

I've been trying to rank our options at 19 and I just can't do it.  Everyday I see something about one of the players who are in a range that I like and I can't create a heirarchy of what would be best.  That's the beauty of drafting BPAs for a playoff-type roster.

 

All I know is that if we draft Zaven at 19, then I'm happy.  If it's Owusu-Koromoah I'm happy.  If it's Darrisaw or Cosmi I am happy.  If it's a trade down and we still get Zaven I am ecstatic.

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1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

All I know is that if we draft Zaven at 19, then I'm happy.  If it's Owusu-Koromoah I'm happy.  If it's Darrisaw or Cosmi I am happy.  If it's a trade down and we still get Zaven I am ecstatic.

Darrisaw, is tops for me, followed by Cosmi or Zaven. then I have a few that I would be okay if the fell for JOK, Jamin or someone like Surtain showed up at their feet at 19. 

Really want LT and LB with the first two picks. What sucks with Cosmi is I think both of us had him (or Eich) penciled him in at 51 back a few months ago, now we are talking 19 and Jamin came out of nowhere to enter this conversation

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11 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

That's a good take.  That's an intimidating amount of size and length in the front seven.

 

The thing that blows me away about Zaven is how natural his size is.  He's got the thighs and legs of an offensive lineman and the long arms and huge hands of a defensive end, but it's all packaged into a guy with the fluidity of like a safety.  And he's a kid who came up playing the game with a quarterback's view of the field.

 

I've been trying to rank our options at 19 and I just can't do it.  Everyday I see something about one of the players who are in a range that I like and I can't create a heirarchy of what would be best.  That's the beauty of drafting BPAs for a playoff-type roster.

 

All I know is that if we draft Zaven at 19, then I'm happy.  If it's Owusu-Koromoah I'm happy.  If it's Darrisaw or Cosmi I am happy.  If it's a trade down and we still get Zaven I am ecstatic.

That size speed length of Chase, Sweat and Zaven would be the bermuda triangle for opposing offenses and you can spread them out, because our interior is still the most dangerous part of our front 7. He really does help finish building a wall in front of the QB.

 

You could throw in some of the WRs, DBs, RBs into that mix also. I'd rather not trade up for a QB, but I don't see how we're not thrilled with whoever we draft at 19.

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2 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Darrisaw, is tops for me, followed by Cosmi or Zaven. then I have a few that I would be okay if the fell for JOK, Jamin or someone like Surtain showed up at their feet at 19. 

Really want LT and LB with the first two picks. What sucks with Cosmi is I think both of us had him (or Eich) penciled him in at 51 back a few months ago, now we are talking 19 and Jamin came out of nowhere to enter this conversation

 

If I'm reading the room right, barring QB or something unexpected like Chase/Slater/Pitts falling to 19, I think Darrisaw is pretty much all of our top choice at 19.  I think he's mine too... until I go back and watch a Zaven or Owusu-Koromoah highlight video and second guess my take.

 

Darrisaw is the easiest choice to justify for me.  I think he's going to be good and I think he's going to play through injuries and miss so few snaps and I think he'll make it so we don't have to worry about that LT spot for the next ten years.  That is so appealing.

 

I think Cosmi is a similar proposition FWIW, but he's not as naturally powerful and gifted as Darrisaw so it makes it tough for me to prefer him unless Darrisaw is already off the board.

 

But Zaven looks like a future star to me.  He's one of those physically superior players like Derek Henry that just scares you.  And I think there is a chance we might be able to trade back a few slots, pick up extra capital, and still get Zaven.  Or maybe even get both Zaven and Darrisaw by picking Darrisaw at 19 and then trading back up with our second and one of our thirds to get Zaven.

 

I don't really understand why Zaven and Cosmi aren't more highly valued by draftniks.  Owusu-Koromoah's stock is super high despite the fact he's undersized and his film has some ugliness in it.  Owusu-Komoroah is usually the type of player who falls on draft day and Zaven isn't, but it feels like their stock is switched.  And Cosmi can't seem to get any traction despite his outstanding Pro-Day and three years of film where he went from reliable to good.  He's a considerably better prospect than Mike McGlinchey was.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Owusu-Koromoah falls a little bit on draft day and Zaven goes in the teens, nor would it surprise me if Cosmi ends up going way earlier than draftniks expect.  That would feel like things falling in line with precedent moreso than what has been projected over the past few months.

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I still like Zaven Collins, but he is a pretty similar player to Anthony Barr at the next level, I think. He is more of a SLB that has the ability to be pretty good in coverage. I used to be extremely high on him but I can't ignore a 4.67 time, which isn't bad but it immediately makes him the slowest LBer we have. I'd feel much more confident in him if he ran a 10th of a second slower. JOK to me is a more polished Deion Jones coming out, ND had this guy covering Devonta Smith, while Jamin Davis just ran a 4.37 and is drawing comparisons The Maniac. 

 

I wouldn't be upset with Collins but I like him less in modern defenses than JOK and Jamin Davis. Speed is king on offenses right now, we need fast LBers that are going to be able to tackle 4.3 guys in space. 

Edited by Burgundy Yoda
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People get blinded by the numbers. The film don't lie imo. You can be the fastest person around but you aren't gonna make the tackle if you can't

Shed a block or Diagnose a Play.. If you want a higher Athletic profile that is understandable but don't conflate having speed and getting the job done ie tackling. 

Edited by COWBOY-KILLA-
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14 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

I still like Zaven Collins, but he is a pretty similar player to Anthony Barr at the next level, I think. He is more of a SLB that has the ability to be pretty good in coverage. I used to be extremely high on him but I can't ignore a 4.67 time, which isn't bad but it immediately makes him the slowest LBer we have. I'd feel much more confident in him if he ran a 10th of a second slower. JOK to me is a more polished Deion Jones coming out, ND had this guy covering Devonta Smith, while Jamin Davis just ran a 4.37 and is drawing comparisons The Maniac. 

 

I wouldn't be upset with Collins but I like him less in modern defenses than JOK and Jamin Davis. Speed is king on offenses right now, we need fast LBers that are going to be able to tackle 4.3 guys in space. 

He’s faster than Darius Leonard’s combine 40...

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28 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

But Zaven looks like a future star to me.  He's one of those physically superior players like Derek Henry that just scares you.  And I think there is a chance we might be able to trade back a few slots, pick up extra capital, and still get Zaven.  Or maybe even get both Zaven and Darrisaw by picking Darrisaw at 19 and then trading back up with our second and one of our thirds to get Zaven.

What would be sweet if feasible would be if Darrisaw is off the boards at 19 but Zaven and Cosmi were still there.Drop back a few picks then grab one and then package to grab the other. Zaven with either Darrisaw or Cosmi would be stellar while still keeping a 3rd plus others. Handle that dreaded TE hole with a Tremble, Brevin, Long McKitty, Yeboah... along with DB, RB....

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1 minute ago, KDawg said:

He’s faster than Darius Leonard’s combine 40...

Both times, were kind of shocking to me, I thought they were both faster than that. I had Zaven as a high 4.5 guy but he got clocked at a 4.67 in the friendliest pre-draft workout period I've ever seen conducted. I still like him but I favor freakish speed at the LBer position, being that athletic can make up for minor deficiencies in your game.

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42 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

But Zaven looks like a future star to me.  He's one of those physically superior players like Derek Henry that just scares you.  And I think there is a chance we might be able to trade back a few slots, pick up extra capital, and still get Zaven.  Or maybe even get both Zaven and Darrisaw by picking Darrisaw at 19 and then trading back up with our second and one of our thirds to get Zaven.

I meant to add earlier that I think a few of us were taken back by how strongly you have portrayed your welcomed fancy for Zaven today! :cheers:

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17 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Both times, were kind of shocking to me, I thought they were both faster than that. I had Zaven as a high 4.5 guy but he got clocked at a 4.67 in the friendliest pre-draft workout period I've ever seen conducted. I still like him but I favor freakish speed at the LBer position, being that athletic can make up for minor deficiencies in your game.

Never know if his time was more accurate than other guys who had theirs fluffed.

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@stevemcqueen1 I appreciate the clip and write up on Zaven. The bounce in space particularly from the spy position was awesome to see. 

 

Mobile Qbs destroy us. Murray, Jackson, Hurts stand out from last year. If we can grab a LB at that size capable of neutralizing some of those Qb runs/scrambles and running backs underneath; sign me up. 

 

I think it comes back to his size. He's not undersized or a tweener like the other two highly rated linebackers. 

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When people say they would like to move back a little and pick up some more picks, how far back?  What trade partner do you suggest?  I'm having a tough time seeing a realistic trade.

How about WFT #19 for Jax #33, #65 and #130?  (A second, third and fourth round pick)

 

RD1   RD2   RD3   RD4   RD5   RD6   RD7  
PK/TM   PK/TM   PK/TM   PK/TM   PK/TM   PK/TM   PK/TM  
  1  JAX 3000   33  JAX 580   65  JAX 265   106  JAX 82   145  JAX 33   185  LAC 15.8   229  NO 1
  2  NYJ 2600   34  NYJ 560   66  NYJ 260   107  NYJ 80   146  NYJ 31.4   186  NYJ 15.4   230  SF 1
  3  SF 2200   35  ATL 550   67  HOU 255   108  ATL 78   147  HOU 31   187  ATL 15   231  MIA 1
  4  ATL 1800   36  MIA 540   68  ATL 250   109  HOU 76   148  ATL 30.6   188  NE 14.6   232  TEN 1
  5  CIN 1700   37  PHI 530   69  CIN 245   110  CLE 74   149  CIN 30.2   189  PHI 14.2   233  HOU 1
  6  MIA 1600   38  CIN 520   70  PHI 240   111  CIN 72   150  PHI 29.8   190  CIN 13.8   234  PHI 1
  7  DET 1500   39  CAR 510   71  DEN 235   112  DET 70   151  CAR 29.4   191  DEN 13.4   235  CIN 1
  8  CAR 1400   40  DEN 500   72  DET 230   113  CAR 68   152  DEN 29   192  DAL 13   236  BUF 1
  9  DEN 1350   41  DET 490   73  CAR 225   114  DEN 66   153  DET 28.6   193  CAR 12.6   237  DEN 1
  10  DAL 1300   42  NYG 480   74  WAS 220   115  DAL 64   154  NYJ 28.2   194  SF 12.2   238  DAL 1
  11  NYG 1250   43  SF 470   75  DAL 215   116  NYG 62   155  SF 27.8   195  HOU 11.8   239  DEN 1
  12  PHI 1200   44  DAL 460   76  NYG 210   117  SF 60   156  MIA 27.4   196  NYG 11.4   240  PHI 1
  13  LAC 1150   45  JAX 450   77  LAC 205   118  LAC 58   157  MIN 27   197  NE 11   241  LAC 1
  14  MIN 1100   46  NE 440   78  MIN 200   119  MIN 56   158  HOU 26.6   198  LAC 10.6   242  NE 1
  15  NE 1050   47  LAC 430   79  LV 195   120  NE 54   159  LAC 26.2   199  MIN 10.2   243  ARI 1
  16  ARI 1000   48  LV 420   80  LV 190   121  LV 52   160  ARI 25.8   200  LV 9.8   244  WAS 1
  17  LV 950   49  ARI 410   81  MIA 185   122  NE 50   161  BUF 25.4   201  NYG 9.4   245  PIT 1
  18  MIA 900   50  MIA 400   82  WAS 180   123  PHI 49   162  LV 25   202  CIN 9   246  WAS 1
  19  WAS 875   51  WAS 390   83  CHI 175   124  WAS 48   163  WAS 24.6   203  HOU 8.6   247  ARI 1
  20  CHI 850   52  CHI 380   84  PHI 170   125  MIN 47   164  CHI 24.2   204  CHI 8.2   248  IND 1
  21  IND 800   53  TEN 370   85  TEN 165   126  TEN 46   165  IND 23.8   205  TEN 7.8   249  JAX 1
  22  TEN 780   54  IND 360   86  NYJ 160   127  IND 45   166  TEN 23.4   206  IND 7.4   250  SEA 1
  23  NYJ 760   55  PIT 350   87  PIT 155   128  PIT 44   167  LV 23   207  KC 7   251  TB 1
  24  PIT 740   56  SEA 340   88  LAR 150   129  SEA 43   168  MIN 22.6   208  CHI 6.6   252  LAR 1
  25  JAX 720   57  LAR 330   89  CLE 145   130  JAX 42   169  CLE 22.2   209  LAR 6.2   253  DEN 1
  26  CLE 700   58  BAL 320   90  MIN 140   131  BAL 41   170  JAX 21.8   210  BAL 5.8   254  PIT 1
  27  BAL 680   59  CLE 310   91  CLE 136   132  CLE 40   171  BAL 21.4   211  CLE 5.4   255  NO 1
  28  NO 660   60  NO 300   92  GB 132   133  NO 39.5   172  SF 21   212  HOU 5   256  GB 1
  29  GB 640   61  BUF 292   93  BUF 128   134  MIN 39   173  GB 20.6   213  BUF 4.6   257  CLE 1
  30  BUF 620   62  GB 284   94  KC 124   135  GB 38.5   174  BUF 20.2   214  GB 4.2   258  MIA 1
  31  KC 600   63  KC 276   95  TB 120   136  KC 38   175  KC 19.8   215  TEN 3.8   259  TB 1
  32  TB 590   64  TB 270   96  NE 116   137  TB 37.5   176  TB 19.4   216  PIT 3.4       
                97  LAC 112   138  DAL 37   177  NE 19   217  TB 3       
                98  NO 108   139  NE 36.5   178  GB 18.6   218  NO 2.3       
                99  DAL 104   140  PIT 36   179  DAL 18.2   219  ATL 2       
                100  TEN 100   141  LAR 35.5   180  SF 17.8   220  GB 1.7       
                101  DET 96   142  GB 35   181  KC 17.4   221  CHI 1.4       
                102  SF 92   143  MIN 34.5   182  ATL 17   222  CAR 1.1       
                103  LAR 88   144  KC 34   183  ATL 16.6   223  ARI 1       
                104  BAL 86          184  BAL 16.2   224  PHI 1       
                105  NO 84                 225  PHI 1       
                                     226  NYJ 1       
                                     227  DAL 1       
                                     228  CHI 1       

 

 

 

 

:229:The Rook

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11 hours ago, Die Hard said:

I’m all for beefing up the offence. So I would love Najee Harris. It opens up so much and makes our offenders incredibly diverse.

 

But the guy that gets me most excited (short-term and long-term) is Rondale Moore. I’d take him @ 19.

 

But I’m not going to complain if the team is practical and drafts a OT, LB or even CB. 
 

The Team has so many options, it’s going to get an upgrade at 19 no matter. It’s the 2nd and 3rd round picks, that I’m hopeful there will be some good talent that matches needs.

 

But Im not confident. The players we want seem to get snatched up the pick before us.

 

 

 

I agree about the 2nd round, because I get the feeling there will be quite a few 1st-Round-Worthy players that drop to the 2nd.

So I'm so glad we have a pick in the 2nd, and didn't give it up.

Also, because of the above, I feel that even at our #19 pick, we will have the privilege of having to choose from multiple players who are worthy of that slot, and could also help us a great deal.

I have a really good feeling about this draft.

I believe there will be a lot of talent, to be had in the first 2 or 3 rounds. Especially with 4 picks in the first 3.

It just comes down to making the wisest decisions there, and we have the potential to really boost this team with that draft.

Edited by Malapropismic Depository
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