Update - 3/11/21 - America Rescue Plan Bill is signed!

[EmirOfShmo]

Jobless claims: Another 853,000 Americans filed new unemployment claims last week

 

Many more Americans filed new unemployment claims last week than during the previous week, as a resurgence in COVID-19 cases heading into the winter led to more business-constraining social distancing restrictions and pushed more people out of work.

The Department of Labor released its weekly report on new jobless claims Thursday morning at 8:30 a.m. ET. Here were the main results in the report, compared to consensus estimates compiled by Bloomberg:

• Initial jobless claims, week ended Dec. 5: 853,000 vs. 725,000 expected and a revised 716,000 during the prior week
• Continuing claims, week ended Nov. 28: 5.757 million vs. 5.210 million expected and a revised 5.527 million during the prior week

Thursday’s report ended a seven-week streak during which new jobless claims held below 800,000. New weekly claims are now about four times greater than they were before the pandemic, when they were averaging about 200,000 per week. Still, they are down from a pandemic-era high of nearly 6.9 million in late March.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/initial-jobless-claims-week-ended-dec-5-2020-coronavirus-pandemic-184915706.html

[Springfield]

So how long do we go before the economy collapses? Think we make it to Biden’s term. Sure seems like we have a ticking time bomb here, especially since we are going to be closing down most service industries again.

[PCS]

 

 

 

 

Mitch. Don't make her break out her dry erase board. 

[visionary]

 

[Bang]

Sure would be nice if Mitch had a fatal embolism.
Today.

 

~Bang

[Burgold]

It wouldn't surprise me if McConnell's end strategy was to destroy the US economy and cause something far worse than the Great Depression, thinking he could pin it on Biden and Democratic policies. He really doesn't care what happens to America as long as it benefits him and his party. Strike that, he really doesn't care what happens to America as long as it benefits him and the republicans in the Senate.

[skinsmarydu]

My new favorite thing is when Munchkin asked her if she was a lawyer...

She's a law professor and wiped her whiteboard with him. 

 

Get his ****ing name off my money, for cryin' out loud. 

[Bang]

27 minutes ago, Burgold said:

It wouldn't surprise me if McConnell's end strategy was to destroy the US economy and cause something far worse than the Great Depression, thinking he could pin it on Biden and Democratic policies. He really doesn't care what happens to America as long as it benefits him and his party. Strike that, he really doesn't care what happens to America as long as it benefits him and the republicans in the Senate.

Every single thing they are doing right now is to insure the country is as BAD as it can be so they can blame every bit of fallout on Biden.

They will purposely tank everything INCLUDING whipping up secession talk to make it as bad as it can be, including actual civil war. They'd cheer it. They'd encourage it, they'd welcome it.

 

 

There's only one way to stop this.
And it's not "waiting for them to come to their senses and listen to reason".
But that is what we'll do, and we'll be all surprised and shocked and dismayed when it once again become crystal clear that they do not have any thing at all resembling the same concern, that in fact they have the exact opposite motive.

 

best be ready. The election isn't an ending to any of this.

 

~Bang

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Bang

[Wildbunny]

On 12/11/2020 at 1:07 PM, Burgold said:

It wouldn't surprise me if McConnell's end strategy was to destroy the US economy and cause something far worse than the Great Depression, thinking he could pin it on Biden and Democratic policies. He really doesn't care what happens to America as long as it benefits him and his party. Strike that, he really doesn't care what happens to America as long as it benefits him and the republicans in the Senate.

You mean is a Russian or Chinese's spy in disguise?

[visionary]

 

[goskins10]

Here is the latest proposal. The overall bill has been split in 2 - one has the two poison pills - State Support and Corporate Liability protection. The other bill has all the rest. 

 

https://money.yahoo.com/bipartisan-group-splits-stimulus-220109280.html

 

Here are the particulars: 

Edited December 16, 2020 by goskins10

[visionary]

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

I’ll go on the record...and I’m sure I’ll take some heat from The Tailgate for this.  BUT...

 

Opening up business owners to 10-15 years of lawsuits where, in all likelihood, personal injury lawyers and exorbitant health car costs will be the primary beneficiaries probably isnt the best path for the country to put this behind us quickly.

 

Could be wrong, I’ll hang up and listen...

Edited December 16, 2020 by TryTheBeal!

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

I’ll go on the record...and I’m sure I’ll take some heat from The Tailgeta for this.  BUT...

 

Opening up business owners to 10-15 years of lawsuits where, in all likelihood, personal injury lawyers and exorbitant health car costs will be the primary beneficiaries probably isnt the best path for the country to put this behind us quickly.

 

Could be wrong, I’ll hang up and listen...

 

The alternative is to not make businesses accountable for forcing employees into situations where their health is seriously compromised when its not actually necessary and or for not taking proper precautions to make sure employees have the least amount of exposure as possible. Current law I believe protects businesses from frivolous lawsuits. But an employees right to a healthy and safe environment to the extent possible should never be compromised IMO. Giving business protection by law would do that. 

[LD0506]

[Fergasun]

The above post is correct.  Our response to COVID was and is tepid not because we lack the ability, our country lacks the initiative.  The reason I suppose is that if money was spent directly on the American people, folks would ask "why not more often?". 

 

Also, this AM brings news stimulus checks are on the table again, which really is pathetic.  

[bearrock]

12 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

I’ll go on the record...and I’m sure I’ll take some heat from The Tailgate for this.  BUT...

 

Opening up business owners to 10-15 years of lawsuits where, in all likelihood, personal injury lawyers and exorbitant health car costs will be the primary beneficiaries probably isnt the best path for the country to put this behind us quickly.

 

Could be wrong, I’ll hang up and listen...

 

There's always tension between opening the court doors for address of grievances vs protecting individuals and businesses from frivolous lawsuits.  There are many laws and rules already in place in an attempt to balance these competing interest.

 

The problem with a blanket liability protection is that it is a sledgehammer solution to a problem which may not need additional solutions to begin with.  If there is need for a solution, it needs to be a scalpel.

 

One thing that could be a meaningful avenue to consider would be to create a safe harbor provision where if a business meets and adheres to some sensible covid safety guidelines, the business would be afforded some additional liability protection and we could fund grants or zero interest loans to fund those safety measures.  But a blanket protection seems too much to me.

[Springfield]

12 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

I’ll go on the record...and I’m sure I’ll take some heat from The Tailgate for this.  BUT...

 

Opening up business owners to 10-15 years of lawsuits where, in all likelihood, personal injury lawyers and exorbitant health car costs will be the primary beneficiaries probably isnt the best path for the country to put this behind us quickly.

 

Could be wrong, I’ll hang up and listen...

 

I can agree with this.

 

I haven't followed what exactly is being asked for in these bills, but businesses need to be open. They need employees to work. I think they should provide masks and other protection for their employees (face shields, plastic barriers, enforce rules). The employees take a certain amount of risk though. It's like working any job. If you feel at risk going to work with Covid, then don't go to work. You won't get paid, but you won't get sick. Sorry.

[PleaseBlitz]

@bearrock wrote what I would have, pretty much verbatim.

 

While I agree that businesses need to be open, the question is not whether or not they are open, it is whether or not they are open safely.  And not even 100% safely, just reasonably safely.  

 

I believe that basically every state has developed a standard for providing a safe workplace environment.  Here is Virginia's:  https://www.doli.virginia.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/RIS-filed-RTD-Final-ETS-7.24.2020.pdf

 

If you comply with the standard, even if your employees get sick, you should be fine because you acted reasonably under the circumstances.  If you don't comply with the standard and force your employees to work under unsafe conditions, you should be subject to punishment, same as if you gave your employee a rickety ladder or kept a stick of dynamite in the cash register.  

[Fergasun]

I don't think blanket liability is reasonable.  I believe the courts should sort it out under current law. Do people file lawsuits over getting the flu?

[bearrock]

I can appreciate @TryTheBeal! and @Springfield's (and I would imagine many small business owners) perspective too.  They are afraid that whatever safety measures they implement, some lawyer will come along and argue that hey, the owner should have provided a full on hazmat suit and hourly testing for every employee.  Federal law can create covid specific minimum standards, states can go higher if desired, and any employer meeting those standards can be deemed presumptively not negligent.  Something along those lines would provide some certainty and guidelines for businesses, while not foreclosing the possibility of redress in case an employer truly acted negligently.

[PleaseBlitz]

Case study:

 

This person should be able to sue the US government for the unsafe work conditions at the White House, where they blatantly shun masks, make fun of people who wear them, and hosted multiple superspreader events, for his medical costs.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-14/white-house-official-recovers-from-severe-covid-19-friend-says

 

Quote

A White House official who fell ill with Covid-19 in September is recovering after three months in the hospital, though he lost his right foot and lower leg in his battle against the virus, according to a friend.

 

Crede Bailey, the director of the White House security office, was the most severely ill among dozens of Covid-19 cases known to be connected to the White House. Bailey’s family has asked the White House not to publicize his condition, and President Donald Trump has never publicly acknowledged his illness.

...

“His family has staggering medical bills from a hospital stay of 2+ months and still counting in the ICU and a long road ahead in rehab before he can go home,” McCrobie wrote Nov. 13, when she created the account. “When he does make it home there will be major changes necessary to deal with his new, and permanent, disability.”

 

[tshile]

1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said:

you comply with the standard, even if your employees get sick, you should be fine because you acted reasonably under the circumstances

Running this by someone actively involved in one of these... basically they said that’s great but not how it works. 
 

it costs money to fight even if you’re right and there are situations and states where certain groups tend to fair better/worse etc. settling is the assured way to minimizing costs. 

im not arguing the legal part of it. I’d never do that. But it sounds like there’s a issue of practicality ?

[PleaseBlitz]

17 minutes ago, tshile said:

Running this by someone actively involved in one of these... basically they said that’s great but not how it works. 
 

it costs money to fight even if you’re right and there are situations and states where certain groups tend to fair better/worse etc. settling is the assured way to minimizing costs. 

im not arguing the legal part of it. I’d never do that. But it sounds like there’s a issue of practicality ?

 

Yea, even if you are in the right, if someone sues you, you will have a fight on your hands and that costs money.  That's not any different than if someone slips and falls in your place of business (and there are not blanket liability protections for that).  Plaintiffs lawyer's are counting on the business settling to make it go away.  If you have the facts on your side (that you complied with whatever standard applies), then you are in really good shape to tell them to **** off and bring it, and see what they do then (it costs time and money on the other side too).  Practically speaking, plaintiff's lawyers will probably have a relatively easy time finding employers to sue that didn't comply with the standard, either due to negligence (not paying attention to their responsibilities) or because they are of a certain political persuasion and intentionally flouted the rules BECUZ FREEDOMS.

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

That's not any different than if someone slips and falls in your place of business (and there are not blanket liability protections for that)

Yeah. I get that. 
 

I guess one difference would be we don’t have any standards by which covid will be judged. Like what winds up being reasonable and not.

 

that seemed to be his point. And I don’t know that he wants blanket protections either. He was more just scoffing at the idea that we already have protections at the state level and it’s fine as long as you were responsible and reasonable about how you handled it. 
 

the tone was sort of: yeah? Gladly trade places with you on it then. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by tshile