michiskin Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 26 minutes ago, goskins10 said: This is a waste of time. Yup. I figured that out quite a ways back. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 16 minutes ago, goskins10 said: Not responding to "google it" bull****. Either produce numbers or you have no point. Here is a hint though - right wing talking points always want to discuss raw numbers not % of population. unemployment is a percent measure. In CA it is 11 percent. The US is around 6.5 percent. In California the cost of living is 38% higher than a typical us city. California GNI index which measures the gap between the rich in the poor rank in the top ten in the country. https://www.statista.com/statistics/227249/greatest-gap-between-rich-and-poor-by-us-state/ it ranks 37th in pre-K-12 education. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education What more evidence would you like. Combine that with the fact that California isn’t exactly a tax haven and you have a state that takes in a lot of money but gets very little in return. Cue the yea but still.... 16 minutes ago, goskins10 said: Nice bull**** trick there. You brought it up so I was responding to to you - but nice try at deflection. It's a lie but I guess it's all you have. Again, it's clear that YOU brought up red vs blue first. I simply responded. I disagree but ultimately we can agree it’s not important either way. 16 minutes ago, goskins10 said: It's not an opinion. It is a fact. Just because there are some that approach it that way does not make it right. Our founding fathers see it much differently than you. how so. It’s pretty clear they saw the role of centralized government as providing defense, and providing a set of rules for commerce between states. Not taking money from one state and giving it to another. 16 minutes ago, goskins10 said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabbyrwock Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: unemployment is a percent measure. In CA it is 11 percent. The US is around 6.5 percent. According to the bureau of labor statistics CA unemployment is 9.0% while nationally it is 6.9%. Using the Oct. rather than Nov. numbers since the latter are considered preliminary. https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.ca.htm https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.us.htm California: US Edited December 21, 2020 by Jabbyrwock Added plots 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 December estimates for CA unemployment are coming in at about 8.0%. Just sayin... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, Jabbyrwock said: According to the bureau of labor statistics CA unemployment is 9.0% while nationally it is 6.9%. Using the Oct. rather than Nov. numbers since the latter are considered preliminary. https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.ca.htm https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.us.htm California: US is unemployment higher in California or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: California’s homeless problem is well documented, and all the other numbers (unemployment, income inequality, cost of living) are easily googled. And yet you have done none of those things. Nor even bothered to attempt to offer enough specificity for anyone else to do your job for you. Edited December 21, 2020 by Larry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabbyrwock Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: December estimates for CA unemployment are coming in at about 8.0%. Just sayin... Those numbers will be preliminary, of course. I usually don't quote preliminary stuff since it can go up or down. 1 minute ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: is unemployment higher in California or not? It is, but its important to get the numbers correct. They way you presented it, it made things look like California is almost twice as bad as the US as a whole. This is not the case. Seek precision. It does not help in any discussion to be hyperbolic. Also, if you dig deeper into the numbers, it seems the reason CA has bee higher in unemployment over the last decade or so is due to two factors: a downturn in construction jobs (this tends to be cyclical) and trade impacts due to both the global recession as well as recent trade wars (California has many ports). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, Jabbyrwock said: It is Ok. Quote Also, if you dig deeper into the numbers, it seems the reason CA has bee higher in unemployment over the last decade or so is due to two factors: a downturn in construction jobs (this tends to be cyclical) and trade impacts due to both the global recession as well as recent trade wars (California has many ports). This is a “yeah, but still” argument. Stop making excuses. I suppose the high cost of living and wage inequality can be explained away as well. Edited December 21, 2020 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabbyrwock Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Just now, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Ok. “yeah, but still” Wasn't a "yeah, but" it was extra detail. When you grow up a bit you will find that any discussion is aided first by finding and establishing facts. I have neither agreed or disagreed with any of your opinions. I have, however, been establishing facts. Learn how to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 West Virginia unemployment rate for November was 6.2%. Place is practically a capitalist utopia. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) Hi. 21 year resident of California here (and a public servant). I'm by no means an expert on California's inner workings but I'd probably be able to flush out some of the problems the state faces. Such as...high cost of living (housing prices) that have been artificially propped up due to a conservative ballot measure that was passed in 1976. When you disincentivize selling, you get low stock. Demand is always still there (its California), new stock cant be built (nowhere else to build), so the prices go through the roof. Edited December 21, 2020 by The Evil Genius 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: Hi. 21 year resident of California here (and a public servant). I'm by no means an expert on California's inner workings but I'd probably be able to flush out some of the problems the state faces. Such as...high cost of living (housing prices) that have been artificially propped up due to a conservative ballot measure that was passed in 1976. When you disincentivize selling, you get low stock. Demand is always still there (its California), new stock cant be built (nowhere else to build), so the prices go through the roof. So we are blaming the high cost of living in California on a law past more than 40 years ago and the democrats there still haven’t had the aptitude to fix. And we are blaming higher than average unemployment over the last 10 years ( @Jabbyrwocks chart) on trade wars and cyclical factors. understood. Edited December 21, 2020 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted December 21, 2020 Author Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) OK, something we can work with. 54 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: unemployment is a percent measure. In CA it is 11 percent. The US is around 6.5 percent. In California the cost of living is 38% higher than a typical us city. California GNI index which measures the gap between the rich in the poor rank in the top ten in the country. Unemployment - It was 3.9 pre-covid (Nov 2019 per BLS). They have clearly been hit harder by Covid than other states. But as a metric of being better run or not, this doesn't seem to measure up. Pre-covid they were at least equal to the US average or below. They have a lot of gig workers due to the nature of business. So it is higher but it is also coming down. Oct was 9%, Nov 8.2%. I did not look early but I am sure it's been coming down each month. There are a lot of people so it's recovery would be slower. Cost of living is ridiculous. It is driven by abnormally high gas prices and high housing costs. Not sure that is a government problem. In fact it's becasue people want to live there so bad they are willing to overpay for housing. The rest of the cost of living is similar. People want it live there so they pay for the housing. I lived in CA for a minute. I left due to the high housing costs. In 2019 - again pre-covid - the GNI coefficient fro CA was .49. It was .48 for the US. (Just for fun VA is 0.47, so all pretty close to the same - just saying.) So you can say there were harder hit by Covid and I could even buy that in terms of a pandemic they were not as prepared and have not handled it very well - although there are a lot of factors out of the govs control - and yes that includes trump. But overall none of these metrics indicate that CA is actually run poorly as compared to other states. To bve fair they are not being run better either. Quote https://www.statista.com/statistics/227249/greatest-gap-between-rich-and-poor-by-us-state/ it ranks 37th in pre-K-12 education. They are also 4th in higher education. They should be better in K-12. But you cannot discount there high performance in Higher education since it's managed and paid for by the government unlike other states. I would like to see them maybe not put so much into higher education and put more into K-12 and close the gap. It's an opportunity for sure. So fair enough. Quote https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education What more evidence would you like. Combine that with the fact that California isn’t exactly a tax haven and you have a state that takes in a lot of money but gets very little in return. Cue the yea but still.... No that is your trick. I treat data with reality. Yes, CA has high and you get more services. So it';s a personal decision. For me, it was not worth it. My son was already through college as was I. And overall the housing cost was jsut too much for me. Not mentioned and has nothing really to do with this conversation - I did not like the named fires. Give me a hurricane anytime. We had a fire go up one side of the plant and down the other. No damage but it was enough for me. That and not being able to get home to the East coast fast enough if my family needed me. But I never felt the state was poorly run. Roads were good. Gov services were good. But you do pay for it - becasue they do not get money from the federal govt. Quote I disagree but ultimately we can agree it’s not important either way. LOL - Funny thing abotu facts. You can disagree but that does not change them. Go back and re-read the comments. You are confusing me from someone else who went to red blue - and with reason since that's usually the comparison. But I never discussed Dem/Rep or red/blue until you did. Quote how so. It’s pretty clear they saw the role of centralized government as providing defense, and providing a set of rules for commerce between states. Not taking money from one state and giving it to another. It's that very narrow definition you want to apply bto providing defense. It is not jsut military defense. And it;'s Taking Money from one to give to another. It's the apportionment of money where it's needed most rto preserve the republic as a whole. This is the problem with today's republicans. They want it to all black and white. But life is nuanced.The country as a whole is only a strong as it's weakest link. So we help and support each other when needed. That is how it was designed. But it has devolved into a mass of me me me bickering. It's nauseating. Edited December 21, 2020 by goskins10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 1 minute ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: So we are blaming the high cost of living in California on a law past more than 40 years ago and the democrats there still haven’t had the aptitude to fix. understood. Maybe you could learn a little bit more about how state government works (especially state ballot propositions in California)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, goskins10 said: Cost of living is ridiculous. It is driven by abnormally high gas prices and high housing costs. Not sure that is a government problem. In fact it's becasue people want to live there so bad they are willing to overpay for housing. The rest of the cost of living is similar. gov can do about the high housing costs. People want it live there so they pay for the housing. I lived in CA for a minute. I left due to the high housing costs. Just to clarify (since I used to work for the State DOT), the higher gas prices here are because of additional state fuel taxes (to pay for the road maintenance and other transportation) and the cost of adding a blend to reduce emissions. California's air quality has to be a factor considered when the main source of transport is still single occupancy vehicles. Inflated housing prices, as I have said, are directly attributable to Prop 13. Edited December 21, 2020 by The Evil Genius 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted December 21, 2020 Author Share Posted December 21, 2020 1 minute ago, The Evil Genius said: Just to clarify (since I used to work for the State DOT), the higher gas prices here are because of additional state fuel taxes (to pay for the roads and other transportation) and the cost of adding a blend to reduce emissions. California's air quality has to be a factor considered when the main source of transport is still single occupancy vehicles. Inflated housing prices, as I have said, are directly attributable to Prop 13. Thanks for the clarity. I didn't look it up. So paying for their own infrastructure instead of taking more federal funds. Being more self sufficient. What a lousy way to govern. LOL I think there is more to the housing cost. It is still market driven. Yes, Prop13 contributed. But the housing costs can only be that high if people will pay it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Average single-family home price in West Virginia is about $107K. Lowest ranked state and it’s not even close. Dead last. #50. PARADISE!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, goskins10 said: Thanks for the clarity. I didn't look it up. So paying for their own infrastructure instead of taking more federal funds. Being more self sufficient. What a lousy way to govern. LOL I think there is more to the housing cost. It is still market driven. Yes, Prop13 contributed. But the housing costs can only be that high if people will pay it. Federal transportation dollars don't cover the needs of a state this large. Tbh, neither do the additional gas taxes. The State has a huge backlog of projects that need to be done but can't. As for housing, of course its not as simple as Prop 13. But, keeping the same property tax base (no more than 2% increase in value each year) and allowing that base to be transferred (in family) means that me and my neighbor can have identical houses (worth the same of the market) and he is paying 1/4 of the property taxes that I am because he bought it 20 years ago and I bought 5 years ago. His lesser payment in property taxes also directly effects public education. Edited December 21, 2020 by The Evil Genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted December 21, 2020 Author Share Posted December 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: Federal transportation dollars don't cover the needs of a state this large. Tbh, neither do the additional gas taxes. The State has a huge backlog of projects that need to be done but can't. That was not meant for you. It wsa to the point that on ave CA per capita pay more in federal $s that they take - $348. Where Va - the othger state in the earlier conversation takes more than the send - I believe it was almost $8,000 per person. 2 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: As for housing, of course its not as simple as Prop 13. But, keeping the same property tax base (no more than 2% increase in value each year) and allowing that base to be transferred (in family) means that me and my neighbor can have identical houses (worth the same of the market) and he is paying 1/4 of the property taxes that I am because he bought it 20 years ago and I bought 5 years ago. His lesser payment in property taxes also directly effects public education. Was not really disagreeing. Just saying it's not just one thing. People still need to be willing to pay the prices being asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 It's so interesting to read about California in this thread. 🤨 Anyone got anything interesting on the deal that will do wonders for nobody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted December 21, 2020 Author Share Posted December 21, 2020 Just now, Hersh said: It's so interesting to read about California in this thread. 🤨 Anyone got anything interesting on the deal that will do wonders for nobody? Fair enough. We did go down a rabbit hole. SOrry, will redirect, at least my comments. Looks like some could see checks as early as next week. https://www.yahoo.com/money/mnuchin-stimulus-checks-could-arrive-next-week-144313195.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabbyrwock Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Hersh said: It's so interesting to read about California in this thread. 🤨 Anyone got anything interesting on the deal that will do wonders for nobody? ...but I made a graph 😥. Fine. I'll just tie a bow and drop it. Here I graphed California's unemployment after subtracting off US avg unemployment. This is yearly for August...I'd do more but @Hersh will correctly tell me to focus) You can see the 20 year-ish cycle I was talking about (seems like construction unemployment tends to out pace national average during down turns in California). Still tho, at least in August, California seems to peak at about 2.5% above national background unemployment and average maybe 1.25% above background. ^BLS US Avg unemplyment ^BLS California Avg unemployment Edited December 21, 2020 by Jabbyrwock Forgot data attribution 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 33 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: Average single-family home price in West Virginia is about $107K. Lowest ranked state and it’s not even close. Dead last. #50. PARADISE!!! My wife's uncle has a house in WV, in the middle of a small-to-medium sized town, that costs less (according to Zillow) than I make in two months, and it is bigger than my townhouse in the DC suburbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 I’m moving to wv as we speak... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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