Welcome to the Redskins Chase Young DE Ohio State

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, Panninho said:

 

We are last in the NFL in stunts. This is so lazy. I mean everyone saw it. We had 3 or 4 guys at the line and that were the guys that were coming. Our blitz designs were ugly, we ran no stunts. The few games where we constantly lined up multiple people at the line and dropped different guys and thus created some confusion our defense played much better...before went back to doing what has not worked before.

We still only had 2 sacks less than the 49ers. But I feel that we could get so much more pressures out of our defense if we would get a bite more creative.

 

Same is true for our O-line. If you look at what the 49ers did yesterday with all their motions and movement in the run game and then look at Jay Gruden's run designs where he, once again, basically bets on every lineman winning his 1 on 1. I just want some of that creativity.

 

 

 

As for sacks, they often weren't in key moments.  If you are struggling to get teams off the field on third down, then the pressure isn't hitting home that much at the most important moments.  It also seemed like when an opposing offense needed a big score to ice a game or a long drive to kill the clock to finish a game they could do it. 

 

Manusky wasn't big on stunts or exotic blitzes.  With Gregg Williams, he'd mixed it up and include corner blitzes to the degree that one season Shawn Springs led them in sacks.  Manusky seemed big on double A gap blitzes, sending his MLBs but it came off predictable.

 

The one thing I'll give him is that in the last few games they were showing sort of a stacked-overload style blitz coming from one side (often the strong side) from what I noticed and that looked different and seemed to work.  But it was too little-too late.   

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for sacks, they often weren't in key moments.  If you are struggling to get teams off the field on third down, then the pressure isn't hitting home that much at the most important moments.  It also seemed like when an opposing offense needed a big score to ice a game or a long drive to kill the clock to finish a game they could do it. 

Exactly. To add to your point...

 

I always like to think of how you perform in any area in "known" situations.  For example, if you are an offense in a "known" passing situation, can you protect, and complete passes? (ie: 3rd and more than 4, during a comeback).  Defensively, if you the offense is in a "known" passing situation, can you get pressure?  Or because they know what they have to do, they just shut you down because they know what you need to do?

 

In my estimation, since 2017, we've been bad in all "known" situation.  In 2016, we were in 3rd and long a bunch, but actually managed to convert at a relatively high clip.  However, the 3rd down, and especially 3rd and long defense that year was HISTORICALLY bad.  (I have to find an audio clip of Tim Kurkjian saying historically bad, because the way he says it is hysterical. In other news, I love Timmy.  And I miss when he used to come on Mike and Mike and they would play some guy screaming "TIIIMMMMAAAAYYY."  It was gold.)

 

However, both offensively and defensively, since 2017 we've been piss-poor in known situations on both sides of the ball. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Manusky wasn't big on stunts or exotic blitzes.  With Gregg Williams, he'd mixed it up and include corner blitzes to the degree that one season Shawn Springs led them in sacks.  Manusky seemed big on double A gap blitzes, sending his MLBs but it came off predictable.

I actually LOVE the double gap blitzes ... when executed correctly.  Because the thought is if you rush 2 from the same hole, the RB can pick up one of them an the second has a free run.  

 

The problem is our blitzes were predictable, ill times, and at times the OL would double-team the DT into the hole and that basically blocked all 3 guys.  

 

As with everything, variety is the spice of life.  Manusky had 1 thing he could come up with, and that was about it.  

 

I think Jack and Ron are going to be more creative.  Though, when I think of Ron's Carolina defenses, I don't really envision a lot of exotic blitzes.  They are more tough as nails, play down hill type defenses.  Sure, they blitz and bring pressure, but I don't quite see them the same way that Gregg Williams brings pressure.  But I also can't say I watched a lot of Panther football over the last few years.  

 

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The one thing I'll give him is that in the last few games they were showing sort of a stacked-overload style blitz coming from one side (often the strong side) from what I noticed and that looked different and seemed to work.  But it was too little-too late.   

And if memory serves, it worked ok for a bit, then teams would adjust, and it wouldn't work.  

 

It is still shocking to me hour we went from Haz to Barry to Manusky. When all is said and done the three of them might have the 3 worst DC resumes in the last 30 years.  

 

Even Jay admitted that the biggest mistake he made while coaching here was selecting Barry over Phillips.  I think how different the entire situation might have been with just that one move....

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Exactly. To add to your point...

 

I always like to think of how you perform in any area in "known" situations.  For example, if you are an offense in a "known" passing situation, can you protect, and complete passes? (ie: 3rd and more than 4, during a comeback).  Defensively, if you the offense is in a "known" passing situation, can you get pressure?  Or because they know what they have to do, they just shut you down because they know what you need to do?

 

 

I've quoted Polian on this a lot,  He made this comment if i recall the previous off season where he more or less said that the Redskins have a good D line but their best players are about power and not speed off the edge and that type of front is easier to deal with in critical third down situations when the offensive line/protection scheme has to lock it down.  He said you need a Freeny type for these reasons. A player who can line up wide (not worry about the run) and just run by the tackle.  Sweat I gather has the potential to be that guy but that fits Chase Young to a tee IMO.

 

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I actually LOVE the double gap blitzes ... when executed correctly.  Because the thought is if you rush 2 from the same hole, the RB can pick up one of them an the second has a free run.  

 

The problem is our blitzes were predictable, ill times, and at times the OL would double-team the DT into the hole and that basically blocked all 3 guys.  

 

 

Me, too. Zimmer is famous for it among others.  but like you said you need more tricks up the bag.  Also i am not so sure we got the best horses for it.  I talked about Patrick Queen some on the draft thread, that dude has the speed and the moves to get to the QB up the A gap.  Not sure that we got the right players to be that dangerous on that front.  If we drafted T. Edmunds 2 years ago, he'd be perfect for this, etc. 

 

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

It is still shocking to me hour we went from Haz to Barry to Manusky. When all is said and done the three of them might have the 3 worst DC resumes in the last 30 years.  

 

Even Jay admitted that the biggest mistake he made while coaching here was selecting Barry over Phillips.  I think how different the entire situation might have been with just that one move....

 

 

 

It was actually my biggest criticism of both Shanny and Jay and did it in real time.  I get coaches wanting to work with dude's they are comfortable with but I'd let that go and get the best dude you can find.  Joe Gibbs didn't know Gregg Williams from a hole in the wall.  They are 2 totally different cats personality wise.  Yet Gibbs asked around and he was told Gregg was the best dude on the market, so he flew to Buffalo and worked to recruit him as one of his first moves as HC.  I recall reading about it at the time.

 

I don't know for sure but reading about Shanny and Jay on this I got the impression that Shanny didn't want a big name coordinator (ditto in Denver) because he wanted to have some ego-say in what happened on defense.  With Jay, it came off like he wanted dudes he was personally comfortable with. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.milehighreport.com/platform/amp/2019/9/11/20855110/broncos-film-study-outside-linebackers-in-coverage

 

I thought this was an interesting look at dropping OLBs in coverage.  
 

Never been one to bemoan the practice, but I have been against 1) putting them in man coverage (unless maybe you bracket the person they’re covering), and 2) dropping them more than just occasionally.  
 

One of the key points is that dropping a guy into a short zone can mess up the protections (which is big) and take away a passing window the qb expected to be there (causing them to hold the ball longer and/or lose their hot read).  

[evmiii]

I expect a significant difference in the defense with the new system and new leadership.  If we add talent (.i.e. Chase Young) we will be even better.  Last years defense schemes were much too predictable and not executed very well.  Way to many guys out of position, guys running uncovered, not maintaining an edge; mix this with poor tackling most of the time you saw the result.  I am still very excited that they actually recognized it was broken and made changes.  HTTR!

Edited January 20, 2020 by evmiii

[goskins10]

37 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for sacks, they often weren't in key moments.  If you are struggling to get teams off the field on third down, then the pressure isn't hitting home that much at the most important moments.  It also seemed like when an opposing offense needed a big score to ice a game or a long drive to kill the clock to finish a game they could do it. 

 

Manusky wasn't big on stunts or exotic blitzes.  With Gregg Williams, he'd mixed it up and include corner blitzes to the degree that one season Shawn Springs led them in sacks.  Manusky seemed big on double A gap blitzes, sending his MLBs but it came off predictable.

 

The one thing I'll give him is that in the last few games they were showing sort of a stacked-overload style blitz coming from one side (often the strong side) from what I noticed and that looked different and seemed to work.  But it was too little-too late.   

 

To be honest I am most excited to have Jack Del Rio as the DC. He has been successful everywhere he has gone. I also believe tat means we will take whoever he believes is the best defensive player in the draft and that should be Chase Young. His defenses have all had a truly dominant pass rusher along with other strong parts to make a ruthless Dline. 

 

To our sack totals - I agree the number of sacks by the team do not really tell the story - my problem being when we really needed a sack, we could not get one, like on 3rd downs. We would get them on 1st down and then give up a 3rd and 15. In fairness that may just be my perception but it sure looked that way to me. 

 

i look for a much more active Dline. There are a few guys whose career is abotu to take a different trajectory then it looked like they were headed. The talent is there. Just need someone to make it all work. I believe Jack is the guy. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Some of these late season blitzes, creepers, etc.  Had some exotic looks at least relatively speaking.  They seem to come out of nowhere (maybe Rob Ryan influence?) because I don't recall that much earlier in the season but maybe i missed it.

 

First clip is the look, the one after is what they actually did out of the look. 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't know for sure but reading about Shanny and Jay on this I got the impression that Shanny didn't want a big name coordinator (ditto in Denver) because he wanted to have some ego-say in what happened on defense.  With Jay, it came off like he wanted dudes he was personally comfortable with. 

Haz was actually a pretty big name DC at that point, at least to some extent.  He was a former HC who won coach of the year.  I know after he got fired in New Orleans he didn't have a stellar record, but I think there was quite a bit of respect for him, at least at that time.  

 

Jay, I dunno. I think he wanted guys who wouldn't really rock the boat or challenge him.  it's why he didn't get along with Callahan. And Phillips was going to do things his way, however Barry was going to do things however Jay wanted them done.

 

It's kindof the second level of the same criticism I (and you, I think) have levied at Bruce.  Bruce wanted people who he could control, not the best people for the job.  Jay, he could control.  Jay could control Barry.  it kinda runs down hill.

 

If Jay gets another HC gig, it will be interesting to see if he's learned anything and changed.  Does he fill the staff with a bunch of DC/Tampa folks he knows. does he pay more attention to detail, does he run harder, more intense practices?  Time will tell.  I actually doubt he gets another HC gig unless he goes somewhere as an OC and has outstanding success for a few years.  But I could be very wrong.  You never know.  He has a legitimately good reputation for scheming up a pass offense, he has experience, and a good name.  And some executives might blame Bruce for the whole mess, and give him a pass.  However, he didn't get 1 interview for any of the jobs this year that I know of, though there were only 4 openings he would qualify for, so that's not a lot of demand.  McCarthy and Rivera were going to get 2 of them.  So there were only 2 other openings.  

 

I find it a bit odd the Giants and Browns didn't at least kick the tires on him.  Especially the Browns. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Some of these late season blitzes, creepers, etc.  Had some exotic looks at least relatively speaking.  They seem to come out of nowhere (maybe Rob Ryan influence?) because I don't recall that much earlier in the season but maybe i missed it.

 

First clip is the look, the one after is what they actually did out of the look. 

One thing I noticed in these cutups is that they often just leave the middle of the defense open, they line 53 up over the center, ten drop him, so the center ends up standing there with nothing to do, and they bring pressure from the outside.  

 

BUT, the shortest distance between 2 points is a straght line, and if you bring edge pressure and nothing on the interior, the QB can step up out of danger.

 

Whatever.  I'm hoping and expecting Jack and Ron to fix the schematics of the defense by the first OTA practice, and then drill the ever living hell out of it.  

 

I am looking for a huge step up on the defense.  They have some talent, and now they have proven coaches.  Last year I said they had some talent, but bad coaching.  

I'm looking forward to seeing the difference.

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Haz was actually a pretty big name DC at that point, at least to some extent.  He was a former HC who won coach of the year.  I know after he got fired in New Orleans he didn't have a stellar record, but I think there was quite a bit of respect for him, at least at that time.  

 

 

Haz's reputation had some damage at the time but granted it was worse by the time he left here.  Shanny though was known for the same thing in Denver, he didn't do big name D coordinators, it wasn't just a Redskins thing.

 

23 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Jay, I dunno. I think he wanted guys who wouldn't really rock the boat or challenge him.  it's why he didn't get along with Callahan. And Phillips was going to do things his way, however Barry was going to do things however Jay wanted them done.

 

 

It's been said that Callahan was foisted on Jay.  I don't know for sure.  But even if i don't agree with their choices, I do believe every HC should choose their own assistants.   It shouldn't be coming from above IMO.

 

23 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

It's kindof the second level of the same criticism I (and you, I think) have levied at Bruce.  Bruce wanted people who he could control, not the best people for the job.  Jay, he could control.  Jay could control Barry.  it kinda runs down hill.

 

 

It's in the mix of the multiple criticisms I had of Bruce.  It could be about control and also having a slew of people in that building who had his back.   If you want to survive any office political war, load it up with people who owe you their jobs and you have a long relationship with.   

 

23 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

If Jay gets another HC gig, it will be interesting to see if he's learned anything and changed.  Does he fill the staff with a bunch of DC/Tampa folks he knows. does he pay more attention to detail, does he run harder, more intense practices?  Time will tell.  I actually doubt he gets another HC gig unless he goes somewhere as an OC and has outstanding success for a few years.  But I could be very wrong.  You never know.  He has a legitimately good reputation for scheming up a pass offense, he has experience, and a good name.  And some executives might blame Bruce for the whole mess, and give him a pass.  However, he didn't get 1 interview for any of the jobs this year that I know of, though there were only 4 openings he would qualify for, so that's not a lot of demand.  McCarthy and Rivera were going to get 2 of them.  So there were only 2 other openings.  

 

I find it a bit odd the Giants and Browns didn't at least kick the tires on him.  Especially the Browns. 

 

Jaguars just interviewed him for OC.  Among the criticisms of Jay, I don't live and die with the hard practices criticism.  Some coaches go hard, some don't.  Shanny's practices weren't known to be hard.  Ditto Bill Walsh among others. 

 

i am going to make a point and to do it I'll bring in Callahan.  But its not to debate Jay versus Callahan (I really don't care about that) but to bring it to Rivera. 

 

When a new coach arrives, you almost always get the narrative that they are bigger, badder, better.  Comes with the turf.  Eventually that narrative fades.  Callahan was 3-8.  yeah it was better than Jay's initial start this season but it wasn't better than the standard season in recent years.   I liked some aspects of Callahan but I was far from blown away by the dude.

 

It has gone somewhat sneaky below the radar here and I've not pushed it much because it doesn't matter -- that things weren't all Shangra La with Callahan behind the scenes.  Multiple reporters talked about it, one whom joked about how good they were to prevent that plot from leaking.   But I've heard multiple times that numerous players didn't like Callahan.  Ditto some coaches who also disagreed with some of his coaching philosophy.  And it wasn't because of the discipline but other things about his style with people.  If you google Callahan's stints in Oakland-Nebraska you'll find some narratives that not all the players loved the dude for different reasons.

 

If I had to pick a personality and style, it would be a hybrid of Jay-Callahan.  I think Rivera might be ironically that dude.  He can be a disciplinarian type (like Callahan) but also likable (like Jay).   Like Machiavelli said it might be better to be feared than loved but it's best to be both.  

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

One thing I noticed in these cutups is that they often just leave the middle of the defense open, they line 53 up over the center, ten drop him, so the center ends up standing there with nothing to do, and they bring pressure from the outside.  

 

BUT, the shortest distance between 2 points is a straght line, and if you bring edge pressure and nothing on the interior, the QB can step up out of danger.

 

Whatever.  I'm hoping and expecting Jack and Ron to fix the schematics of the defense by the first OTA practice, and then drill the ever living hell out of it.  

 

I am looking for a huge step up on the defense.  They have some talent, and now they have proven coaches.  Last year I said they had some talent, but bad coaching.  

I'm looking forward to seeing the difference.

 

It's not uncommon for teams to leave the middle open on obvious passing downs (3rd down 8-10 yards) and overloaded the edges.  

 

Listening to a reporter who covered Del Rio closely, and checking out one of his games, Del Rio doesn't seem to be an exotic blitz guy or for that matter a blitz guy period.  He likes to win with a 4 man front, to keep 7 in coverage.  He likes to keep assignments simple so players play fast.

 

It's another reason why I think we go Chase Young.  If you want to successfully pass rush without blitzing then Chase Young >>>>>>>Ryan Kerrigan.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Jaguars just interviewed him for OC.  Among the criticisms of Jay, I don't live and die with the hard practices criticism.  Some coaches go hard, some don't.  Shanny's practices weren't known to be hard.  Ditto Bill Walsh among others. 

Maybe "Hard" is the wrong word.  All the beat reporters have come out and in some way shape or form said Jay's practices were just lacking.  Lacking attention to detail, lacking intensity, lacking a lot of things.  You don't have to do the Oklahoma Drill to teach toughness.

 

Bill Walsh famously told an assistant he was going to rip him a new one in practice just to get the team's attention.  (If you haven't seen that video clip, it's pretty funny.)  Then he went out and ripped the hell out of somebody, and it motivated the team. 

 

There are a million ways to do things.  My point is a whole lot of folks have commented that "club Jay" was a real thing, and it wasn't just the lack of hitting, it was the lack of the intensity necessary to really get ready for a season and play games.  

 

But enough on Jay.  He's gone.  2.25  years late.  But gone.  

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's not uncommon for teams to leave the middle open on obvious passing downs (3rd down 8-10 yards) and overloaded the edges.  

I watch a lot of football, I have noticed it at times, I've also noticed teams that really get after it on 3rd down plug the middle than bring pressure from the outside.  

 

A lot of ways to get it done.  I personally don't like just leaving the middle open.  It's a preference.  

 

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to a reporter who covered Del Rio closely, and checking out one of his games, Del Rio doesn't seem to be an exotic blitz guy or for that matter a blitz guy period.  He likes to win with a 4 man front, to keep 7 in coverage.  He likes to keep assignments simple so players play fast.

Yeah, I've heard and whitnessed the same.  But I think his defenses still are built on getting upfield.  

 

Also, Ron is going to have a say in the defense as well.  I think he likes to be more aggressive. 

 

But time will tell.  

 

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

It's another reason why I think we go Chase Young.  If you want to successfully pass rush without blitzing then Chase Young >>>>>>>Ryan Kerrigan.  

If Young is what he's advertised to be, then having an outstanding outside DE pass rusher makes everything better.

 

Kerrigan is fine, but his best years are behind him, and he just doesn't have the physical skills to terrify an offense.  

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Maybe "Hard" is the wrong word.  All the beat reporters have come out and in some way shape or form said Jay's practices were just lacking.  Lacking attention to detail, lacking intensity, lacking a lot of things.  You don't have to do the Oklahoma Drill to teach toughness.

 

Bill Walsh famously told an assistant he was going to rip him a new one in practice just to get the team's attention.  (If you haven't seen that video clip, it's pretty funny.)  Then he went out and ripped the hell out of somebody, and it motivated the team. 

 

There are a million ways to do things.  My point is a whole lot of folks have commented that "club Jay" was a real thing, and it wasn't just the lack of hitting, it was the lack of the intensity necessary to really get ready for a season and play games.  

 

But enough on Jay.  He's gone.  2.25  years late.  But gone.  

 

Rick Snider has made that point but he also talked about Shanny's practices being light, too.  Ditto Brian Mitchell.   The other beat guys I don't recall really killing Jay's practices but say he's on the lighter side versus intense.  But if Jay's practices were light I am interested in seeing what the more intense ones look like. 

 

I'll tell you if I go to camp this year which I'll probably do and i'll contrast Rivera's practices.  I've seen some Dolphin practices over the years (they practice 20 minutes away from my home) and they didn't seem to practice harder than the Redskins ones I've watched and if anything they seemed a little shorter and lighter.  But granted that's just one team and not the paragon of NFL success.  

 

I've watched 13 Jay practices including one the Friday before a game.  Among the coaching staff, Jay was one of the more intense and energetic coaches on the field.  Ditto Tomsula. 

 

Joe Barry and Manusky on the other hand came off laid back.  I've run into Manusky a couple of times, really nice guy.  Jay, too.  Callahan came off a bit awkward socially but it was a small sample.  As to practices, O'Connell seemed on the quiet side and laid back.   Randy Jordan was intense.

 

Every unit ran their own drills mostly separately for most of the practice and then converge at some point to run plays offense versus defense.

 

As for intensity, I think an underrated issue with this team are the personalities of the players.  Portis among others have talked about this which is you need some more dogs on the field.  Coughlin among others (Gibbs, too) have said their SB teams reflected the leadership of the players on the team.  you talk about the beat guys, a joke they like to make is that the new captain and leader often tends to be the new guy who arrives which brings home the point of what does that say for what we had before?

 

I know some talk up Jonathan Allen like he's that kind of dude because he's curt with the media and gives them some good angry soundbites.  But at least in the practices I watched he seemed to keep to himself, quiet dude, he's one of the rare players on the team who I've never seen sign an autograph or even nod at a kid who tried to get his attention.  Kerrigan is fan friendly but also very quiet and keeps to himself from what I can tell.   Payne is a quiet dude.  Ditto Ionnaidis.    

 

They IMO need some players that help keep others on edge.  London Fletcher was that guy when he was here.  I recall reading C. Griffin.  Randy Thomas, etc, ditto.   We seemed to have more guys like that under Gibbs' regime.   It's one of the things that strike me watching practice.  Will Compton was a vocal leader type but he wasn't a good player.  We need IMO some good players who bring some dog in their style of play and also in their persona-leadership IMO.  

Edited January 20, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

The point is to have PRODUCTIVE practices. They don't necessarily have to be long or super tough/difficult, but things need to be accomplished.

 

 

[kingdaddy]

Miami holds picks 5, 18 and 26....Let's just say they offer that haul to us for the #2 overall pick to draft Tua. What players are we talking about getting rather than Young? This would allow Detroit to take Young and the Giants to take Simmons or Okudah.....

Pick #5: Jerry Jeudy, WR, Alabama....best WR in the draft would be paired with Terry McClauren and Steve Sims to make up a dynamic threesome at WR

Pick #12: Grant Delpit, Safety., LSU...best safety in the draft slides in nicely next to Landon Collins

Pick #26: A.J. Epenesa, DE/LB Iowa......Skins draft the versatile pass rusher who was a 5 star recruit out of high school and was excellent at Iowa

 

Again, this is hypothetically what it COULD look like if we traded out and passed on Chase Young......not a bad haul. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I listened to the podcast below.  They interviewed someone who has covered Ohio State for a long time and wrote two books about the program.

 

He said he wouldn't wait 10 seconds to turn in the draft card.  No brainer.  He said he's a finished product.  Cool personality - really outgoing, has a lot of personality.  Haskins is a quiet guy he goes, Chase is much louder. 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Miami holds picks 5, 18 and 26....Let's just say they offer that haul to us for the #2 overall pick to draft Tua. What players are we talking about getting rather than Young? This would allow Detroit to take Young and the Giants to take Simmons or Okudah.....

Pick #5: Jerry Jeudy, WR, Alabama....best WR in the draft would be paired with Terry McClauren and Steve Sims to make up a dynamic threesome at WR

Pick #12: Grant Delpit, Safety., LSU...best safety in the draft slides in nicely next to Landon Collins

Pick #26: A.J. Epenesa, DE/LB Iowa......Skins draft the versatile pass rusher who was a 5 star recruit out of high school and was excellent at Iowa

 

Again, this is hypothetically what it COULD look like if we traded out and passed on Chase Young......not a bad haul. 

 

It's fun to play with the idea, I doubt Miami offers all three #1's but if they did.  I got a somewhat different list of players but that's just my opinion. 

 

#5 Isaiah Simmons

#12 Ceedee Lamb or Jeudy whomever is left.  And I think one will be left.  Love both but prefer Lamb.

#26.  I see Epenesa all over the place in mocks, in some top 10, in some late first.  I am guessing its somewhere in between so got some doubts he's there at #26.  Xavier McKinney or CJ Henderson or Austin Jackson.

 

Listening to Finlay's podcast, he said one scout told him a healthy Tua would be the best Qb in the draft and raved about him giving the vibe that some team might give up the moon for him.  Finlay right now thinks they are taking Young but its early.  They also mentioned trading with Detroit while still getting Chase being ideal -- I agree but am guessing the odds are low for that. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[kingdaddy]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's fun to play with the idea, I doubt Miami offers all three #1's but if they did.  I got a somewhat different list of players but that's just my opinion. 

 

#5 Isaiah Simmons

#12 Ceedee Lamb or Jeudy whomever is left.  And I think one will be left.  Love both but prefer Lamb.

#26.  I see Epenesa all over the place in mocks, in some top 10, in some late first.  I am guessing its somewhere in between so got some doubts he's there at #26.  Xavier McKinney or CJ Henderson or Austin Jackson.

 

Listening to Finlay's podcast, he said one scout told him a healthy Tua would be the best Qb in the draft and raved about him giving the vibe that some team might give up the moon for him.  Finlay right now thinks they are taking Young but its early.  They also mentioned trading with Detroit while still getting Chase being ideal -- I agree but am guessing the odds are low for that. 

It is fun and I am in agreement that some team is gonna fall in love with Tua and offer us a sick haul to get him. Miami has the most firepower to do it with their haul of 1st round picks so they're the most logical team to do the mock trade with imo. If enough teams fall in love with Tua and Miami is one of them we are likely gonna be flooded with offers....good offers. This is gonna be the longest waiting game of our lives.

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[Anselmheifer]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

#5 Isaiah Simmons

#12 Ceedee Lamb or Jeudy whomever is left.  And I think one will be left.  Love both but prefer Lamb.

#26.  I see Epenesa all over the place in mocks, in some top 10, in some late first.  I am guessing its somewhere in between so got some doubts he's there at #26.  Xavier McKinney or CJ Henderson or Austin Jackson.

 

I've been bored by most of these trade down scenarios because I find them unlikely, but this one catches my interest just because you mention getting Simmons and Jeudy and pick 26. I have Simmons and Jeudy both just below Chase Young. If I knew for a fact that I could have both, that's one of the few trades I'd make out of that spot. 

 

You really warmed me up on Patrick Queen. After really looking at him harder, I think he's going to go higher than our 3rd.

 

Watching his full game vs Texas made me feel better about parts of his game. His speed is very good, but I don't think he's Devin White/Bush fast. His length looks like it makes him struggle to make tackles in space at times. The play at 1:47 shows both his strengths and weaknesses. He's fast and blitzes well but then short arms/misses the tackle. At 3:15 he also looks like he struggles tackling in space a bit, because of his length. On the other hand, he's listed at 227, but his functional power looks better than that. Watch him stone the blocker in the hole at 2:50, or planting the OT at 3:41. 

 

 

 

In short, I really like him. I think he's a rich man's SDH, without the health issues, and that we could grab him and plug him in at WILL and have another defensive cog checked off for a while. I just don't think he's going to fall to the top of the 3rd. Especially in a linebacker poor draft. 

 

Edit:These threads are all melding together for me. Meant to post this in the draft thread. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Anselmheifer

[KillBill26]

59 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Again, this is hypothetically what it COULD look like if we traded out and passed on Chase Young......not a bad haul. 

Definitely makes for an interesting conversation.  In your scenario, I'd take whichever of okudah or Simmons that the Giants don't take as our pick at 5, then I like your other 2 selections.  

 

As someone who has said and still believes you stay and take young, I certainly understand the appeal of trading back.  

 

How about trading down AND getting Chase young?  How awesome would that be.  It would be contingent on Detroit falling in love with tua as the successor to stafford.  We have our poker face, express genuine interest in trading out of the 2 spot (or selecting tua ourselves), and solicit bids for the #2 pick, knowing we would only consider what Detroit offered.  If we could get Detroit's 2nd, maybe we roll the dice that they would stay at 2 and take tua (or if they decide to trade back and get a better haul that we passed on, whatever, as long as tua is the pick).  We would still get young. 

 

Or if detroit fakes us out, and takes young themselves, we could auction the #3 pick for tua, hoping Miami is the high bidder, so we can then auction the #5  pick for Herbert.  It could result in a lot of premium draft picks, potentially rivaling some of the biggest draft day moves ever.

 

But I'm still not convinced you don't try to get too cute, you take young and let him lead your defense for 12 years.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

59 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

I've been bored by most of these trade down scenarios because I find them unlikely, but this one catches my interest just because you mention getting Simmons and Jeudy and pick 26. I have Simmons and Jeudy both just below Chase Young. If I knew for a fact that I could have both, that's one of the few trades I'd make out of that spot. 

 

 

 

I love Lamb and Jeudy.  I've seen both play live.  I saw Jeudy more recently at the Cirtus Bowl where he had a monster game.    Thinking about it some more got doubts that either would be there at the Dolphins 2nd #1 pick at #18.  i think then we'd be talking Ruggs or Higgins as to receiver.  

 

I am not in the Chase Young and Simmons are close camp.  I like Simmons a lot.  But it's not hard for me to decide for Young over Simmons.   I am ultra jazzed about taking Young. 

 

As for Patrick Queen.  Yeah its hard for me to explain but some players just grab me more based on their style of play.  And Queen really hits me like that.  Reading a little about him, it sounds like he's a leader with big time intangibles, too.  Yeah agree he's unlikely going to be there in the third round.

 

If they can get a 2nd for Trent, the draft would be even more interesting.   Maybe they could patch LT without Trent?  Humphries, Castonzo?, 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[kingdaddy]

37 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

Definitely makes for an interesting conversation.  In your scenario, I'd take whichever of okudah or Simmons that the Giants don't take as our pick at 5, then I like your other 2 selections.  

 

As someone who has said and still believes you stay and take young, I certainly understand the appeal of trading back.  

 

How about trading down AND getting Chase young?  How awesome would that be.  It would be contingent on Detroit falling in love with tua as the successor to stafford.  We have our poker face, express genuine interest in trading out of the 2 spot (or selecting tua ourselves), and solicit bids for the #2 pick, knowing we would only consider what Detroit offered.  If we could get Detroit's 2nd, maybe we roll the dice that they would stay at 2 and take tua (or if they decide to trade back and get a better haul that we passed on, whatever, as long as tua is the pick).  We would still get young. 

 

Or if detroit fakes us out, and takes young themselves, we could auction the #3 pick for tua, hoping Miami is the high bidder, so we can then auction the #5  pick for Herbert.  It could result in a lot of premium draft picks, potentially rivaling some of the biggest draft day moves ever.

 

But I'm still not convinced you don't try to get too cute, you take young and let him lead your defense for 12 years.

 

 

In my scenario I am banking on Jeudy knocking it out of the park at the combine and moving into the top 3 players in the draft. I'm also taking Espinesa to make up for not getting Simmons and filling the LB need. Delpit would be an awesome get to help lead the defense to another level by addressing the back end.....

You could argue that these three players make the Skins better than Young would but who knows what the best thing to do is? 

Maybe what we do is contingent on how free agency goes? If we sign a stud WR we don't go for a WR high in the draft....If Trent comes back maybe we don't even consider OL til 4th or 5th round? 

So many things for this new group to consider. They need to get it right. Chase is the safe decision but who knows if a trade back wouldn't get us more stars?

[Anselmheifer]

18 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

In my scenario I am banking on Jeudy knocking it out of the park at the combine and moving into the top 3 players in the draft.

 

I think Jeudy is going to kill the combine in terms of 40 and 3 cone. I bet he's a 4.38 guy and a stud in the agility drills. 

Here is an interesting article on Young as a HS prospect with some clips of him rushing the passer. Great bend, even then. 

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2634148-4-star-de-chase-young-excited-to-visit-alabama-preparing-top-7-for-summer

[KillBill26]

13 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

In my scenario I am banking on Jeudy knocking it out of the park at the combine and moving into the top 3 players in the draft.

 

I'm also taking Espinesa to make up for not getting Simmons and filling the LB need. 

I think okudah, Simmons, and jeudy will all have strong draft processes, and it will come down to teams deciding positional preference.

 

I also think espinosa is a 4-3 d end, and Simmons a will olb in the 4-3, so different position.

 

That being said, young vs jeudy / delpit / Espinosa is an interesting debate.  Swap in okudah for jeudy, and you get your pass rusher in addition to upgrades at FS and CB which many believe should be a priority.  Or Simmons being a stud and filling our olb need.  Simmons / lamb / Espinosa would be a good haul as well.