FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, method man said:

We also need to acknowledge that while it is true Dwayne doesn’t have the best weapons or OLine, they have given him one of the best QB coaches in the league in Zampese and have sacrificed a roster slot to give him another defacto QB coach in Alex Smith. I wonder how much Dwayne is baking Ken’s teachings into his play

 

Alex Smith isn't here for Dwayne's benefit.  We would definitely rather be spending that 20+ million on receivers and linemen.  He's here because he would be a horrible dead cap hit to cut and he's untradeable.  Alex Smith is a good professional and good teammate so he's embraced the mentorship role, but for what we're paying him, that's what he should be doing.  And getting a young QB a good coach is kind of the bare minimum of an effort to support him.

 

We've pretty much done everything else wrong in the process of developing a QB prospect.  But I think Ron Rivera understands the process far better than anyone who was here when we drafted Dwayne, and he's trying to turn things around.  I think he can do it too, he's a good coach.

[Panninho]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Living in the Buffalo market, I actually disagree with your Allen assessment. He was off as a passer, that much I agree with. And in that vein he and Haskins were similar. But the differences were stark.

 

Allen is very well liked. By the community, the fans, the team, the front office. He says and does all the right things. He has the likability of Mahomes. Or Jackson. He isn't them, but he has that kind of aura about him. The team wants to succeed with him because of his personality.

 

He also has some pretty good legs.

 

Fans were not happy with him after that playoff effort last season. But they attributed it to learning and moved on.

 

If Haskins was developing this way, but had that kind of personality, poise and maturity... I would bet he'd still have nay sayers, but the number would be far lower.

 

He is making strides in the maturity department, absolutely. But Allen entered Buffalo day one and captivated the entire area.

 

There is a lot of factors that go into developing a QB.

 

Organizational Structure is one, and this org. failed Haskins.

 

Individual maturity and character is another, and Haskins has failed a lot of sniff tests, but he's beginning to understand that a bit more now. I really think he could use a PR guy in his ear. Saying things like "The people complaining is just noise" is absolutely, 100% correct on his part. But instead he could say something like, "People are right to be frustrated. I am, too. I need to be better. We need to be better. And we're going to work on that. I just need to focus on what's going on in the building and get better every day." That comes across much better, in my opinion. 

 

Here's a quote from Allen RE: The Texans playoff loss:

 

https://clutchpoints.com/bills-news-josh-allen-reveals-what-he-learned-from-buffalos-playoff-loss-to-texans/

 

Don't get me wrong... He has his share of critics here, too. But very few QBs are universally loved. Rodgers somehow still has critics. But the vast majority appreciate Allen.

 

 

I completely agree. Also no situation is ever really comparable. I was just bringing up Allen because he was horribly inaccurate in his first two seasons and he seemed to fix his issues. I saw a short video where someone was explaining how Allen started to lift his left foot a little before releasing the ball which helps his throwing motion a lot - and that he is still off when he doesn't do that. Apparently took him two full seasons to get to that point.

 

Haskins is probably no Allen personality-wise but I think we are putting way too much on a young person here. This whole organization is a mess (still! even if I like the new direction). We had horrible leadership all across the board, finger-pointing at all levels, no accountability. A head coach who wasn't interested in developing him and no one who stood up for him internally. The franchise's best player forced a trade out of that mess. How can you expect a young and incredibly inexperienced player to come in, carry that team and thrive in such an environment. Not everyone is mature enough to charm away a whole franchise despite the circumstances when in the early 20s - and I don't see that Allen would have if he were in Haskin's shoes. This whole organization has failed Haskins and I think it's ridiculous to put that blame entirely on him.

 

Now we have a head coach who apparently wants to give him a chance to develop. I like that approach because it is different than what we were used to. I think it's the right way to go and I would like for people to be more patient. Josh Allen got two years of horrible passing before he turned into (what looks like) a nice QB - while the fanbase, the coaching staff and the ownership were all in and gave him every chance to succeed. We have given Haskins absolutely nothing during his first year. This guy is still young and learning, I would just wish people would have a bit more patience - it's not like we are losing time here...

[method man]

Just now, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Alex Smith isn't here for Dwayne's benefit.  We would definitely rather be spending that 20+ million on receivers and linemen.  He's here because he would be a horrible dead cap hit to cut and he's untradeable.  Alex Smith is a good professional and good teammate so he's embraced the mentorship role, but for what we're paying him, that's what he should be doing.  And getting a young QB a good coach is kind of the bare minimum of an effort to support him.

 

We've pretty much done everything else wrong in the process of developing a QB prospect.  But I think Ron Rivera understands the process far better than anyone who was here when we drafted Dwayne, and he's trying to turn things around.  I think he can do it too, he's a good coach.

I totally get that but they could have put him on IR despite him pushing back on Ron during cutdown day. My understanding is that IR guys can’t attend all the things players on the active roster can

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Panninho said:

We have given Haskins absolutely nothing during his first year. This guy is still young and learning, I would just wish people would have a bit more patience - it's not like we are losing time here...

 

Part of that is on the franchise.

 

Part of that is on the fanbase.

 

But the biggest part of it is on Haskins. He needs to show that he deserves that patience by showing he can be a leader. I don't think he handled not starting on day one well. I don't think he handled his own part in the Gruden relationship well. 

 

Yes, it was a bad situation. And yes, this situation was just about as bad as it gets for developing Dwayne Haskins. But he didn't do himself any favors.

 

Allen earned the patience.

 

At some point, moving on from Dwayne would also be a favor for him so he can hit the reset button. I guarantee you there are franchise's who can still get him going in the right direction if it isn't here. Where he goes in, isn't the starter and can learn. 

 

If he gets benched here, he's done. I don't think he'll handle it well. (And I mean next year, there is no reason to sit him this year)

[method man]

1 minute ago, Panninho said:

I completely agree. Also no situation is ever really comparable. I was just bringing up Allen because he was horribly inaccurate in his first two seasons and he seemed to fix his issues. I saw a short video where someone was explaining how Allen started to lift his left foot a little before releasing the ball which helps his throwing motion a lot - and that he is still off when he doesn't do that. Apparently took him two full seasons to get to that point.

 

Haskins is probably no Allen personality-wise but I think we are putting way too much on a young person here. This whole organization is a mess (still! even if I like the new direction). We had horrible leadership all across the board, finger-pointing at all levels, no accountability. A head coach who wasn't interested in developing him and no one who stood up for him internally. The franchise's best player forced a trade out of that mess. How can you expect a young and incredibly inexperienced player to come in, carry that team and thrive in such an environment. Not everyone is mature enough to charm away a whole franchise despite the circumstances when in the early 20s - and I don't see that Allen would have if he were in Haskin's shoes. This whole organization has failed Haskins and I think it's ridiculous to put that blame entirely on him.

 

Now we have a head coach who apparently wants to give him a chance to develop. I like that approach because it is different than what we were used to. I think it's the right way to go and I would like for people to be more patient. Josh Allen got two years of horrible passing before he turned into (what looks like) a nice QB - while the fanbase, the coaching staff and the ownership were all in and gave him every chance to succeed. We have given Haskins absolutely nothing during his first year. This guy is still young and learning, I would just wish people would have a bit more patience - it's not like we are losing time here...

Yes you are losing something. You don’t get a fair chance to evaluate the WRs, TEs and OL. 
 

 While Kyle Allen doesn’t have Dwayne’s talent, neither does someone like Minshew. People also forget that Kyle Allen was the #1 QB recruit his year in high school

[heyholetsgogrant]

57 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

People continue to go to great lengths to justify terrible play from the quarterback.  

Agreed, most promising rookie QB's show flashes, even Peyton Manning's abysmal rookie season he still had flashes and got better REALLY quick. Haskins looks like he is regressing every week. Teams looking at analytics and film will find ways to exploit your weaknesses.   

[Skinsinparadise]

@stevemcqueen1 love your takes on the draft thread, we rarely disagree, off the top of my head i recall disagreements on McLaurin, Reagor, Haskins and Daniel Jones.  I don't recall too many others.

 

So nothing personal on the Haskins stuff.  I'd love to see Haskins the way you do.  And i am not in the camp that he's a walking bust.  But I also don't see him as a dude with through the roof raw talent, like a Josh Allen, where I'd patiently wait for years (if it had to come to that) to see if he works through the kinks,

 

As for Haskins staring down, I think Rivera said it well a few minutes ago during his press conference which is he looked off way too fast and that in turn translated to him starring.  He said he starred in 2 of those INTs.  My issue with Haskins though isn't about starring, I think he can learn from that fast.  My issue is accuracy. 

 

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[Thirtyfive2seven]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

@stevemcqueen1 lMy issue is accuracy. 

 

 

Mine as well.  I don't mind a QB who is willing to take chances to win games and throw the ball into tight coverage.  But in order to do that requires ACCURACY!  Haskins has not proven that he can throw an accurate pass with no pressure let alone with linemen in his face.  His mechanics are awful.  I would start Allen after the next poor performance.  The sooner, the better.
The defense is good enough to keep the games tight.  If Allen can get a respectable amount of drives going with his arm it'll open up the running lanes and we will see our average RBs gash defenses.  That will open up the play action and this team will be competitive.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[Panninho]

7 minutes ago, method man said:

Yes you are losing something. You don’t get a fair chance to evaluate the WRs, TEs and OL. 
 

 While Kyle Allen doesn’t have Dwayne’s talent, neither does someone like Minshew. People also forget that Kyle Allen was the #1 QB recruit his year in high school

I guess Rivera knows Haskins and Allen better than anyone here. He has worked a year with Allen in Carolina and now a couple of months with Haskins. He sees both of them in practice on a daily basis. Allen lost the competition for the starting job during training camp and Rivera does not sound like he will move to Allen anytime soon. If he would see Allen as a legitimate long-term answer and Haskins as a bust, Allen would play. Who cares if Allen was the #1 ranked QB in high school. We have a head coach who has been working with him for over a year and who determined that Haskins won the starting job over him. Now sure, you could make the case that he was forced to do it or whatever but Rivera doesn't strike me as a guy who would accept something like that.

 

We also had half a season of Case Keenum and Colt McCoy with that receiving squad and it did not look any different than it does today. I don't see how you need another QB to evaluate them.

[KDawg]

Yup. That goes with what I was saying yesterday RE: Haskins. He gets the season. But if he plays like he did, you can't evaluate the remaining talent because of how abysmal the quarterback play is and then things fall apart... And then your evaluation season is totally lost.

 

If Haskins plays "okay", even if he doesn't seem to be the guy, he will likely get the year. If he falls apart... He's going to get pulled.

 

Baltimore is going to be a huge barometer for Haskins.

[Spaceman Spiff]

When do you think that cut-off point is?  I'm thinking maybe 8-10 games in.  The NFC East is ****, we could still be in the playoff hunt at 8 games with a losing record.  And if Rivera thinks he can get more out of Allen or Smith he could make the swap then.  

 

Hard to say, pure speculation.  But I am wondering if the fact that the NFC East is a laughingstock has anything to do with it.

[KDawg]

Just now, Spaceman Spiff said:

When do you think that cut-off point is?  I'm thinking maybe 8-10 games in.  The NFC East is ****, we could still be in the playoff hunt at 8 games with a losing record.  And if Rivera thinks he can get more out of Allen or Smith he could make the swap then.  

 

Hard to say, pure speculation.  But I am wondering if the fact that the NFC East is a laughingstock has anything to do with it.

 

It's when the team starts to lose a spark. It could be in the middle of the Baltimore game... Or it could be in 12 weeks. 

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

It's when the team starts to lose a spark. It could be in the middle of the Baltimore game... Or it could be in 12 weeks. 

I think its less about when "the team" starts to lose a spark and more when Haskins loses it. When we see him making the same mistakes and not growing into his potential. 

[DJHJR86]

3 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

When do you think that cut-off point is? 

 

After 2 or 3 more games like the one yesterday.  Once Rivera benches him, it's over for Haskins with this team, IMO.

[Panninho]

16 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Part of that is on the franchise.

 

Part of that is on the fanbase.

 

But the biggest part of it is on Haskins. He needs to show that he deserves that patience by showing he can be a leader. I don't think he handled not starting on day one well. I don't think he handled his own part in the Gruden relationship well. 

 

Yes, it was a bad situation. And yes, this situation was just about as bad as it gets for developing Dwayne Haskins. But he didn't do himself any favors.

 

Allen earned the patience.

 

At some point, moving on from Dwayne would also be a favor for him so he can hit the reset button. I guarantee you there are franchise's who can still get him going in the right direction if it isn't here. Where he goes in, isn't the starter and can learn. 

 

If he gets benched here, he's done. I don't think he'll handle it well. (And I mean next year, there is no reason to sit him this year)

 

Yeah but it's easier to be patient and to accept your role if you feel the support from the franchise and if they have a very clear development path for you, are transparent and communicate that internally. It's way easier to admit mistakes when you know everyone has your back internally. None of that is easy when you feel you need to proof yourself over and over everyday and you are only 21 or something.

 

I am not arguing to take all the blame away from Haskins. But I have to wonder how much different our conversation about Allen and Haskins would be if the situations were the other way round. Maybe Allen would still be where he is today and Haskins would be out of league. I just think that in the setup we had, no QB would have succeeded.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

It's when the team starts to lose a spark. It could be in the middle of the Baltimore game... Or it could be in 12 weeks. 

 

I listened to the full press conference.  The vibe i got is:

 

A.  he understands that Haskins needs more patience

B. he doesn't think he's played well thus far

C.  There is a point where he thinks he and has staff can evaluate whether he is the guy of the future or not

D. He's not going to automatically get the whole season

 

The larger point for him was his D line is killing it and he thinks he could potentially lose the locker room if they keep losing and Haskins doesn't make progress.  

 

Edit:  I add he said that he and staff watched the tape from yesterday.  I wonder of that effected his tone this morning.  Because he was much tougher on Haskins and the idea of moving forward today then he was last night.

 

[KDawg]

Just now, Thinking Skins said:

I think its less about when "the team" starts to lose a spark and more when Haskins loses it. When we see him making the same mistakes and not growing into his potential. 

When the team loses it, evaluation is shot. You can’t lose the team for one guy. As long as they are feeling alright, then Haskins will be the guy, in my opinion.

2 minutes ago, Panninho said:

 

Yeah but it's easier to be patient and to accept your role if you feel the support from the franchise and if they have a very clear development path for you, are transparent and communicate that internally. It's way easier to admit mistakes when you know everyone has your back internally. None of that is easy when you feel you need to proof yourself over and over everyday and you are only 21 or something.

 

I am not arguing to take all the blame away from Haskins. But I have to wonder how much different our conversation about Allen and Haskins would be if the situations were the other way round. Maybe Allen would still be where he is today and Haskins would be out of league. I just think that in the setup we had, no QB would have succeeded.

I don’t know if a QB would succeed or not. But Haskins had an attitude the moment we drafted  him. 
 

His demeanor as just as much of a culprit as the poor franchise he was drafted to.

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

C.  There is a point where he thinks he and has staff can evaluate whether he is the guy of the future or not

 

 

 

IMO, this is the big question here.  What's the tipping point and why?

 

Now Rivera would never say it because that gets into how they look at and evaluate players and that's secret sauce stuff.  But I find that evaluation fascinating, that there's a tipping point where he'll know whether or not Haskins is the guy.  

[Thinking Skins]

But I still don't get how this can turn into a referrundem on Haskins and not other players on the team (Logan Thomas, Troy Apke, the Wes Brothers, Collins, etc). Its really turning into the Biblical passage "he who is without sin cast the first stone" because even the great Chase Young had the offsides on third down that led to the Eagles scoring, Kerrigan had an offsides, Chubb had 100+ yards yesterday and that wasn't on Haskins. So its not like we're this elite team outside of Haskins. Heck TMac got called for an OPI and Wright was out of bounds and AGG dropped one on a close call. Those aren't on Haskins but we're impacted by them

[Spaceman Spiff]

5 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

But I still don't get how this can turn into a referrundem on Haskins and not other players on the team (Logan Thomas, Troy Apke, the Wes Brothers, Collins, etc). Its really turning into the Biblical passage "he who is without sin cast the first stone" because even the great Chase Young had the offsides on third down that led to the Eagles scoring, Kerrigan had an offsides, Chubb had 100+ yards yesterday and that wasn't on Haskins. So its not like we're this elite team outside of Haskins. Heck TMac got called for an OPI and Wright was out of bounds and AGG dropped one on a close call. Those aren't on Haskins but we're impacted by them

 

You're right but Haskins turned it over yesterday.  A lot.  

 

This team is probably 2-1 or maybe even 3-0 with better QB play.  

[Est.1974]

16 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

When do you think that cut-off point is?  I'm thinking maybe 8-10 games in.  The NFC East is ****, we could still be in the playoff hunt at 8 games with a losing record.  And if Rivera thinks he can get more out of Allen or Smith he could make the swap then.  

 

Hard to say, pure speculation.  But I am wondering if the fact that the NFC East is a laughingstock has anything to do with it.

I said 10-12 weeks but it could be earlier, he might not make it to Thanksgiving if our games against the Giants don’t go well prior to that.

[Darrell Green Fan]

53 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I disagree. We are a quick reaction fanbase. I haven't gone through the game thread but I wonder how many were singing his praises after that first quarter drive when we took the 7-0 lead or after that pretty TD to Inman. Its not like he has put up 10 games - 40 quarters and about 600 or so plays of bad QB. Its a few plays here and there, an int, a missed read, an overthrow or a throw lacking touch, etc. Even this season people are complaining that he's not throwing it deep enough. That's a valid criticism but its not something that I'd rank in the top 10 list of things I require of a QB. He can do things, but I am much more concerned about him growing as a QB and with Turner than anything else and I saw him grow last week in this offense as we saw him getting guys involved, move the team down the field and score three times (and looked good on all three drives). He has a lot of work to do, namely the mistakes made on the non-scoring drives. But this team is a growing team and hopefully they put it all together in time for us to make some noise. 

 

Our fanbase is no different than any other fan base. I'm sure we saw the same comments on the Jags boards about Bortles or Gabbert, just as Bears fans complained about Tribisky and countless other examples.

 

As the QB position is so vital to a team's success or failure there is nothing wrong or unique about Washington fans being critical of the play of our QB.