FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Going Commando]

9 minutes ago, wit33 said:

@stevemcqueen1

 

Help me out with the Thomas throw if you don’t mind, it appeared to me it was a throw he floated, but you’re saying there was miscommunication. I thought it was a seam throw providing Thomas the opportunity to jump up and get it. 

 

 

Spielman says that Dwayne erroneously read Cover 2 on that play, but I'm not sure about that because I don't understand why Dwayne would throw the pattern directly into a a deep half if that were the case.  Maybe Logan Thomas read Cover 2 given the way he tried to adjust his route to go up a middle seam, but Dwayne's throw doesn't really make sense if he's reading Cover 2.

 

To me it looks like Dwayne read correctly that Joseph was single deep, and that he was throwing a post pattern with a flatter angle on the break, which is why the ball ended up so far in front of Logan.  Instead, Logan adjusted his route after his initial break to make his pattern more skinny.  Look at the first angle of Logan's break at five yards past the LoS.  Then look at how Logan kind of curves his route back up field in order to create space between himself and the LBer #56.  I don't think Dwayne saw him make that adjustment and he threw the flatter post pattern and so the throw ended up way too far in front of Logan and into the waiting hands of the safety, who was just kind of hanging out back there in his zone.

 

The reason I think that is a miscommunication is because Dwayne and Logan didn't read the same things, and that's usually what happens when throws end up so far off track from the receiver.  I think Logan was feeling the leverage of that LBer and felt he needed to get up field to preserve a better throwing lane.  And I think Dwayne just missed that adjustment, maybe he's thinking no way to a middle seam throw against cover 1.

 

Quite frankly, Dwayne and Logan are nowhere near good and familiar enough with each other yet to make a lot of off script magic work.  You have to be able to adjust routes and throws on the fly, and unfortunately that kind of chemistry takes time to build.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, dyst said:

What WOW moments? There has been nothing in any of his 10 games that made me say wow or take notice. 

I haven’t seen very many WOW moments other than several “Wow, I can’t believe he missed that” throws every game.

 

I’m not expecting this kid to light the world on fire at this juncture but he just leaves so much basic stuff on the field every week.  To the point you have to wonder if he will ever be able to hit those.

 

[KDawg]

I really think that was just a bad throw. But, not knowing for sure, it could be that they read it different. 

 

I don't give Haskins the benefit of the doubt with his accuracy, though. 

[NoVaSkins21]

11 minutes ago, dyst said:

What WOW moments? There has been nothing in any of his 10 games that made me say wow or take notice. 

 

I was thinking back to the Eagles and Giants games from last year.  The TD today on 3rd and Goal to Inman was not too bad.  I'm not a Haskins cheerleader and I'm not saying that he's turned a corner especially after today's game, but he's shown some flashes.  

[Riggo#44]

This is the right move. Ride or die with Haskins this year. Then either replace or protect Haskins in the draft.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Didn't pff like him coming out of college? 

 

Don't recall but i know they among other anayltic types believe they can tell really quickly whether a QB has it or not once they enter the NFL based on certain metrics. And they don't tend to double down on their predraft assessments if players don't meet those metrics.  At least, that's the impression I've gotten reading their stuff.

 

After season 1 there was one anaylist who liked his potential, and two who saw him as likely a bust.  Not that it matters.  Right now the PFF naysayers on Haskins I gather are driving their narrative about him.  I think they are jumping the gun.   I'd give him the season to try to work it out.   I am not overly optimisitc about him but I'll let the season play out before landing on a verdict. 

 

I went through the schedule and am thinking you might be correct as for them ending up with a bad season record wise and if so it presents an interesting scenario if Haskins struggles and they can land one of the top QBs. 

 

I get your point generally about not paying through the roof for a QB.  But as a WFT fan, I'd love for once in my lifetime (aside from 2012) where I hear about a Qb that we have that the rest of the league fears.  And if one of those type of dudes are available in this coming draft and they are there at our pick -- I'd pull the trigger if i am still unsure about Haskins. 

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

I mean there is no reason to bench him. This isn't like the Bears where they want to win now and have a former Super Bowl MVP at backup. We have Kyle Allen who is absolute ass and a one legged Alex Smith.

[dyst]

27 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Let’s not underestimate him. His taking selfies in the crowd instead of running the Ace formation was certainly a “wow” moment. You don’t give him enough credit. Don’t be a hater...

First sentence, I was like “what the hell is this guy talking about”, then I read the rest of it. 👍 

[LastMortal2]

deleted

[Going Commando]

25 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Disagree.

 

https://www.nfl.com/videos/malcolm-smith-picks-off-dwayne-haskins-to-put-the-browns-in-the-red-zone

 

If Thomas in the flats was his read, he should have thrown it. If he was looking at Thomas but decided to force the ball down field that's even more damning. To me, in that video, it looks as if Haskins is completely locked on, though. But either way there's not a good argument to be made that whatever Haskins did was a good decision. 

 

 

 

Logan was his early read.  Two things going on here though.  First, that DE is in that throwing lane, so there is some risk to a throw with relatively low chance of going for a first down.  Second, if I'm right that Dwayne misread the coverage on Sims and thought the LBer was going to carry him downfield (I think I am), then he's throwing to the sticks to convert the first down by throwing the hook to Inman.  Inman's defender peeled off him to start covering the flat.  Dwayne just guessed wrong about what Malcolm Smith was doing.  It's a tough lesson but it wasn't an egregious mistake.  In general, I would much rather Dwayne be aggressive and pick his high options, especially in third and long situations.  It takes a long time to master the balance between being aggressive and conservative and Dwayne just hasn't seen many different things in zone coverage in particular yet.  He's got a lot of situational football left to learn before he gets good, and it's going to take time for him to get there.

 

34 minutes ago, KDawg said:

This is actually the first interception. 

 

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/video/can-t-miss-play-karl-joseph-punctuates-first-browns-int-with-wild-return

 

I agree that Thomas read the coverage and decided to keep it skinny. And actually upon watching it again, I think Haskins made the same read. The ball isn't far enough off to be a true post route. He led him too much, but it was both high and outside of him, but not enough for it to be read differently (unless he's that inaccurate...). He is locked on to Thomas the entire play. There are four Browns there and one WFT receiver. It was a bad read as well as a lock on. He threw that into four Browns. He has entirely too much confidence in his arm. That's a throw top QBs don't make there. And not necessarily because they don't trust their arm, but they don't want their tight end decapitated.

 

Yeah, it's a hospital throw situation.  But the top QBs and TEs and WRs absolutely do make those kinds of plays in the NFL.  You need to be able to throw a post against cover one, especially when your TE gets a step on the linebacker coverage.  I think the problem for that play was that linebacker rather than the safety lurking back there in the deep zone.  I think Dwayne is thinking that the LBer's back is turned as he's chasing Logan and if Logan just runs the route out and he puts it up high for him, then Logan can just jump up over top of the LBer and make a play on the ball.  Logan is thinking the opposite, that he needs to get skinny and get out in front of that LBer.  They just weren't on the same page, and they possibly could have made the play one way or the other if they had been.

[dyst]

23 minutes ago, SAli457180 said:

 

I was thinking back to the Eagles and Giants games from last year.  The TD today on 3rd and Goal to Inman was not too bad.  I'm not a Haskins cheerleader and I'm not saying that he's turned a corner especially after today's game, but he's shown some flashes.  

Those are just throws a competent QB should make and not really anything we should be praising IMO. Unless our standards are really low then I can see us praising him for even the most basic of QB stuff.

[Skinsinparadise]

35 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

I don't give Haskins the benefit of the doubt with his accuracy, though. 

 

Neither do I.  And that's mainly from watching him throw in camp with no pressure at all in his face.  He was wildly inconsistent.   i do not beliieve Haskins has good accuracy.   Can that change?  Maybe.  PFF seems skeptical.

 

In Bruce Arians book about Qbs, he talks about how consistency for QB exists for some but is elusive for others because some QBs are adept and work so hard at building consistency with their footwork and throwing motion (I've seen Peyton talk about this on different specials) with sound fundamentals and others do not.  And those that do not, tend to have up and down performances and in turn don't reach greatness.   

 

As for Haskins, you got me, i am no expert.  But even as a layperson I could see watching camp that the dude was easily the least accurate of the three QBs in that camp -- and we all know Colt and Keenum aren't exactly Dan Marino.   So for that reason, its hard for me to blame it all on protection or as Rivera says he gets so excited when he sees players open.  Because i've seen him miss plenty of balls that didn't fall under either context.

 

The key thing for me to get me jazzed about him is to make some nice downfield throws.  So little of that so far.  Maybe next week. 

[Going Commando]

8 minutes ago, dyst said:

Those are just throws a competent QB should make and not really anything we should be praising IMO. Unless our standards are really low then I can see is praising him for even the most basic of QB stuff.

 

Nah man, that was a great play.  Third and goal on the 11, throw is an absolute rope to split the corner and safety as Inman dead legs that corner and comes out of his break.  It takes a special arm to make a throw like that work.  And not only work, but look easy.  Haskins had to wait on Inman to make that little move into his break in order to uncover and keep that safety frozen.  Couldn't throw it early, it had to be a laser.

 

Quarterbacks can make things happen when you can get them good protection like that.

[volsmet]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Don't recall but i know they among other anayltic types believe they can tell really quickly whether a QB has it or not once they enter the NFL based on certain metrics. And they don't tend to double down on their predraft assessments if players don't meet those metrics.  At least, that's the impression I've gotten reading their stuff.

 

After season 1 there was one anaylist who liked his potential, and two who saw him as likely a bust.  Not that it matters.  Right now the PFF naysayers on Haskins I gather are driving their narrative about him.  I think they are jumping the gun.   I'd give him the season to try to work it out.   I am not overly optimisitc about him but I'll let the season play out before landing on a verdict. 

 

I went through the schedule and am thinking you might be correct as for them ending up with a bad season record wise and if so it presents an interesting scenario if Haskins struggles and they can land one of the top QBs. 

 

I get your point generally about not paying through the roof for a QB.  But as a WFT fan, I'd love for once in my lifetime (aside from 2012) where I hear about a Qb that we have that the rest of the league fears.  And if one of those type of dudes are available in this coming draft and they are there at our pick -- I'd pull the trigger if i am still unsure about Haskins. 

 

 

 

To me he’s exactly who we should have anticipated him being, every detail of who he’s been has been predictable, and every weakness of his has been neglected by a roster that offers him nothing. He’s the only guy who I studied every snap of ...& I did it twice; he is who he had to be, and the only way to foster any development in a guy as inexperienced as DH.. requires significant investments we haven’t made. He can show flashes on a terrible roster, but no stationary QB grows in conditions like these. We failed him early & the roster around him has only gotten worse.

 

I can’t imagine giving up on him because of anything he could possibly fail to do, in September of his 2nd year, with new coaches, no real offseason, & a roster as putrid as ours. He needed a million reps, the game will slow down. 
 

Joe Burrow was inaccurate at LSU, before he wasn’t. 
 

 

[CommanderInTheRye]

I am 88 and 8/9 % certain that Haskins will never be an above average qb let alone a top tier real difference maker, but I could well be wrong. For now we have no choice but to hold our collective noses and continue to trot him out there until we are certain one way or another.

 

 

 

[volsmet]

I shouldn’t even refer to him as stationary, because he’s worked aggressively on his ability to move: I mean, by stationary, a pocket passer. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

56 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Let’s not underestimate him. His taking selfies in the crowd instead of running the Ace formation was certainly a “wow” moment. You don’t give him enough credit. Don’t be a hater...

The selfie is probably the only thing I’m going to continue to defend him on. That whole game clock situation was a mess, on tv it showed 0:00, and i think i recall People who attended the game saying the same thing on the Jumbotron. haskins was (rightfully) pumped about his first win, saw two fans motioning him to them (they handed him their phone), a lot of things were going on which caused him to not notice that the refs added a couple of seconds onto the clock. It’s a measly kneeldown so it didn’t make any difference that he wasn’t the QB taking the kneeldown. 
 

i think had that not been his first W, he wouldn’t have been feeling AS many emotions, and the “slip-up” wouldn’t have happened. 
 

it’s quite silly how the selfie with the fans (he was being nice, imagine if he had blown off the fans, people would be calling him rude) is still even a debate. 

[86 Snyder]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

By far my favorite game of his and love that he will have this game to reflect and work to improve. 
 

Im dying for the organization to let him reach his ceiling or flounder this season and today the staff put a good amount responsibility in his hands to decide the outcome. He needs these kind of micro losses to reach macro long term ceiling potential. Hoping the trend of giving him more on his plate continues. 
 

The game plan from Turner was good with a mix of aggressiveness, seeking favorable matchups, stretching the field horizontally and vertically, consistent pace changes, and getting  the call in hands of the play makers on the team.
 

Much more encouraged for Haskins development long term than say the Eagles game. 

 

How he manages adversity is on him. 
 

Side note: Love the Thomas throw by the way, just floated it. Spielman saying he stared it down had nothing to do with the INT. Those passes are needed in today’s game, especially with the receiver not being able to be targeted. 

 

What in the actual **** are you talking about?

 

[volsmet]

This is a frustrating rep, ugly mechanically, he just has to get used to having less margin for error at this level and continue developing better habits on throws like this one.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

34 minutes ago, volsmet said:

To me he’s exactly who we should have anticipated him being, every detail of who he’s been has been predictable, and every weakness of his has been neglected by a roster that offers him nothing. He’s the only guy who I studied every snap of ...& I did it twice; he is who he had to be, and the only way to foster any development in a guy as inexperienced as DH.. requires significant investments we haven’t made. He can show flashes on a terrible roster, but no stationary QB grows in conditions like these. We failed him early & the roster around him has only gotten worse.

 

I can’t imagine giving up on him because of anything he could possibly fail to do, in September of his 2nd year, with new coaches, no real offseason, & a roster as putrid as ours. He needed a million reps, the game will slow down. 
 

Joe Burrow was inaccurate at LSU, before he wasn’t. 
 

 

 

Per my last post.  I can't get out of my head watching Haskins throw ball after ball in camp and the dude's accuracy was very wild.  They weren't even rushing guys at him.   Easy pitch and catch.  

 

I recall one of my observations about him that I put on the draft thread after you prodded me to watch his games closely to see if I had similar concerns to yours -- and that observation was that he can be wildly inconsistent with the non-easy throws -- going downfield, especially out routes.   He didn't throw a good deep ball IMO.  And he didn't throw well with pressure in his face or moving laterally away from pressure. 

 

His sweet spot were mesh route/throws, and just generally short to intermediate throws in between the numbers.  He was a magician at the part of the game and he had guys who were great at YAC.  Heck with this team IMO that's been his strength too -- find McLaurin for a slant/quick in route and watch him go for 10 yards or more and fly.  When you watch Haskins highlights from last year, the one I see the most was one where McLaurin took about an 8 yard in route and then ran for 50 or so yards for a TD.   

 

But in short like yourself, I wasn't enamored with Haskins before the draft.  I didn't see him as like an Andrew Luck well rounded prospect where the world would be shocked if he failed.   He had talent but his share of flaws.  Granted no QB is coming out of college is a perfect prospect but there is a reason why he fell to the mid first round (with no one trading up for him) and i totally believe the narratives that came out that some teams didn't have him graded as a first rounder and that includes Kyle Smith.  There was some rawness to Haskins.  

 

The thing i mentioned on the draft thread with Haskins was in college you could find glimpses of hope for everything.  All of a sudden out of nowhere, he would throw a beauty intermediate out route as an example.   He was like that in camp too.  He had one practice where he was on fire, beautful.  Then a few terrible practices and a few that were meh.   

 

For me, i loved Murray in that draft.  Lock was my 2nd favorite but I had concerns about him.  Jones and Haskins to me were boom-bust.  To me Jones had less boom and less bust potential than Haskins.  Haskins to me had more boom and more bust potential than Jones.  I still feel that way about both dudes.   I ended up watching a lot of Jones and Haskins' college games and seen pretty much all of their pro games (I think missed 4 Jones games give or take).  They both have surprised me in some ways but mostly confimed what i thought about their college tape.  Jones is a tough SOB, stands tall in the pocket, is accurate with the short stuff.  He has sneaky athleticism.  My surprise is that he's more daring as a thrower in the pros then he was in college.  He though comes off as streaky thus far in the pros as he did in college.  Still turnover prone.  Still shaky with accuracy outside of the short stuff. 

 

As for Haskins, my surprise on the upside is his mobility.  He moves much better than I expected.  And seeing him up close i really like him as a dude.  But his accuracy struggles with out routes of all kinds both short and long. Up and down play, etc.   Struggles to throw on the move, etc.  It's similar to what i thought before the draft. 

 

I bring Jones and Haskins together into my point because i really wasn't that enamored with either one's upside.  It wouldn't shock me if either one ends up a 15-20 range type of QB in the league but i'll go on the record that i'd be stunned if either ends up top 5 and would be surprised if they land top 10.  

 

So while i get your point and i 100% agree with it.  No doubt that this FO did a poor job creating the right environment for Haskins to succeed.  But in their defense if they truly didn't want Haskins then the owner helped bring on some of that dysfunction.  And if I was as high on Haskins as some others were before the draft then I'd be really mad about all of that.  And i get it.  But since i wasn't that high on Haskins.  I like his potential but I am not blown away by it then i would move on if a more intriguing opportunity presented itself.   

 

If they end up with a top 3 pick and the top 3 QBs live up to their hype.  Then IMO you are likely working with a much more intriguing piece of clay than you are with Haskins.  And look i am not out on Haskins, i think he deserves the season and i don't rule out at all that he turns this around and impresses.  But if he doesn't, i am not intrigued enough by him to continue the experiment if a more attractive option presents itself. 

 

[volsmet]

On this TD throw DH shows more touch and he gets his arm up higher than he typically does. This is improvement, he gets his elbow higher and doesn’t unleash the laser that he, almost always, relies on. It seems subtle but it’s a throw that shows a couple things he’s been working to improve.

 

[wit33]

23 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

What in the actual **** are you talking about?

 

His play hasn’t been good all year, but this game provided opportunities for him to make mistakes and that he did, but ones he can learn from. Pushing the ball down the field, reading coverages beyond 3-5 yards, finding and exploiting matchups, operating in an empty backfield. I’m on extreme end of how to develop a  game changer at the QB spot and him taking/making nothing but underneath scripted throws is lowering his ceiling potential considerably. The pocket QBs have to go through this learning curve to reach game changer status, in my opinion. 
 

The mistakes suck, but if in the long run games like these provide him the opportunity to be better at it in the future, then I can take a games like these. Don’t want the staff to coach him kid gloves, go all in and see what you have. 
 

Full disclosure, I lean a bit negative on my overall outlook on Haskins, but saw some things I liked today. 

[HTTRDynasty]

Profound 🤔

 

 

[volsmet]

Nice progression and throw followed by an awful decision to try and force the screen. The throw after the screen was poor as well, he has a problem dropping his elbow and the ball gets away from him.

 

The first two interceptions seem pretty cut & dry, he tries to force a ball to his TE on a throw every qb tries a few times a year — this just wasn’t the time/window to let that one rip (especially not to that TE), and on the next a young QB got baited. 

 

All athletes have tendencies, DH is being studied more thoroughly than he ever has been and that will force him to grow & make his own adjustments. Routine about growth on the first couple turnovers, zero concern. The mechanics take time, no preseason certainly didn’t help. The elbow needs to get up, he just needs to have his coaches emphasize it over and over ... I’m a bit concerned, with the coaches, watching him drop his arm as much as he does. 

 

[skinbuck]

I’m a huge Haskins honk, but the turdish tendencies that seem to come back in the face of adversity bother me. Talking in the presser about the good things he did or the support he got from the team are both childish and defensive. So is the Instagram post. He just seems super-sensitive to criticism, which is not a great trait..

 

I hope it’s just a Rodgers-style chip on the shoulder thing that can be overlooked in the long run