FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[JaxJoe]

6 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

Keenum intrigues me because in some ways he resembles Alex Smith. He might not wow people with his stats, but he tries to be efficient and not lose games for the team.  Also capable of making big throws.  The downside is we saw the difference in his play when being on a stacked team (Vikings) and a not so good team (Broncos).  Who is the real Keenum, somewhere in-between?

On its face it’s bizarre to me that Minny would let Keenum go. Then to see Denver trade him after after investing a ton of cash. My hunch is that Keenum doesn’t ever grasp the full playbook which pisses coaches off. But, Keenum has a good ability to ad lib on the field and that likely plays into his modest success. I feel Gruden, like most coaches, has a bias for players who know the playbook and is why I think Gruden sees Colt as ahead of Case - and for that matter, ahead of Haskins. I also think coaches get too wrapped up in the ‘infallibility’ of their playbooks instead of focusing on their players’ skills and traits.  

[JaxJoe]

13 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I've been saying if Haskins is who Riddick and Bucky Brooks thinks he is -- this dude is the next Tom Brady.  They have loved him for months. 

I said this in the game-day thread, if Haskins saw wide-open JP Holtz on the shallow corner route as he breaks off from the LB instead of Simms on the deep corner, we have at least a 1st and goal and possibly a TD. It’s these types of plays I want to see Haskins make. That will take some time. 

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/LRiddickESPN/status/1160623048602656768?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1160623048602656768&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fes.redskins.com%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcore%26module%3Dsystem%26controller%3Dembed%26url%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FLRiddickESPN%2Fstatus%2F1160623048602656768%3Fs%3D20

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, wit33 said:

Keenum does not protect the football and is the antithesis of Alex Smith.

 

Yeah am with this idea.  Keenum to me isn't a game manager in the mold of Alex Smith.    Alex protects the football.  Case throws his share of picks.   I don't prefer Colt though but I don't really have a strong opinion one way or another.  Keenum is 31 and will be 32 soon after the season, he's really just had one good season.  It's possible that he rediscovers that form but I'd say its unlikely -- he had the wind behind on his back in a big way that season.  I am ok with taking a chance that he might rediscover that form but I still think its unlikely.  The thing I'll say for Colt is we've been hearing for years that Jay (and according to beat guys not just him but others in that building) thinks he can really run the offense well if given a chance.  I personally doubt it.  but if he wants to go on that ride, am fine with it.

 

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I'm an early and vocal Haskins stan, but you cannot give him the starting job this season if he doesn't earn it in camp or practice.  Doing so would be a huge **** you to the rest of the players and coaching staff on the team because it'd be a signal that we're sacrificing a year of their careers for a kid we think is more important than them. 

 

I agree with this.   But if the season goes south quick, I think players likely understand why Haskins is brought in.    I don't think they are going to win with Colt or Case (love to be wrong) but I think you got to play it out some.  I do like the idea of Haskins playing some this season but not right away unless Jay thinks he is far from ready. 

 

10 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

I'll tell you. I have been in favor of playing Haskins from the beginning. Lets say Case can get us to 7-9 or 8-8. Does it really matter if we go 4-12 or 5-11 instead? You miss the playoffs you miss the playoffs. I want to see Haskins in the next 2 games just to make sure he can handle the pressure and not get messed up from it. But he has BY FAR the best arm, poise and most importantly smarts in camp. What do we really lose by starting him?

 

I agree with the point in theory.  My #1 goal is to help Haskins and see what he's got.  He's the more talented of those three QBs.  But my point is split the baby and play him later in the season as opposed to right away. 

Breer, expounding some:

 

 

 

5. I’m in Richmond now, and we’ll have more this week on the Redskins’ quarterback competition. But I can say now that coach Jay Gruden told me he wants this resolved after the team’s third preseason game, which is just 10 days away. “I think it’ll come probably sooner than later, because you’d like to get that guy ready to go,” he said. “I’d like to hopefully make that decision after the third preseason game, so we can get two weeks to get ready for Philadelphia with the starter.” For now, first-round pick Dwayne Haskins is still chasing Case Keenum and Colt McCoy. The question, then, is whether Haskins can close the gap quickly enough to fit Gruden’s timeline. “I’d say the vets probably have a little bit of a leg up on him, just because they’re vets and they’ve played,” the coach said. “Case has played a lot of football, of course he’s new to the system. Colt’s an experienced guy in the system, he’s coming off that injury, we just have to see how he is running around. He got a little nicked today on it, from a confidence standpoint, from a stability standpoint. But they have a little bit of a leg up on [Haskins], just because of their knowledge of third down and red zone concepts. There’s a lot Dwayne still has to learn, but he can get there.”

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/08/12/antonio-brown-raiders-helmet-jon-gruden-mmqb?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=themmqb

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I'm an early and vocal Haskins stan, but you cannot give him the starting job this season if he doesn't earn it in camp or practice.  Doing so would be a huge **** you to the rest of the players and coaching staff on the team because it'd be a signal that we're sacrificing a year of their careers for a kid we think is more important than them.  It's unfair and it'd damage the culture of competitiveness of the team.  it's not good for Haskins either to just give him the job.  A sense of entitlement must be earned.

 

It's also not the best way to develop him from a football perspective either.  We're fortunate to have two solid vet QB options that we can play this year.  A redshirt season is usually to the benefit of a QB that is fortunate enough to come into a situation where he can sit--look at Mahomes.  Hell, look at Haskins's career at Ohio State.  And quite frankly, our offense is pretty bad this season.  There is only so much you can learn from being trapped in third and longs facing defenses playing with leads all game.  And the risk of developing bad habits would be very real.

Counter point: neither Colt nor Cade is the future.  So if you don’t think you’re a playoff team with either of them, winning isn’t remotely the most important thing.  Getting Haskins reps and development is most important.

 

With the caveat he has to be able to protect himself.

[Going Commando]

5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Counter point: neither Colt nor Cade is the future.  So if you don’t think you’re a playoff team with either of them, winning isn’t remotely the most important thing.  Getting Haskins reps and development is most important.

 

With the caveat he has to be able to protect himself. 

 

Winning has to be the most important thing if you want to actually build a decent organizational culture.  Everyone must always compete and earn their place with the team.  You can't just pick and choose when you compete, and you can't just hand any player a job he hasn't earned, no matter what his position or draft status is.

 

This is the first year in what should be a long career for Haskins.  The team needs to be patient with him and they definitely need to make him compete just like the rest of the guys on the team.  He needs to be one of them, for the good of both him and the team.

[JSSkinz]

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

it'd be a signal that we're sacrificing a year of their careers for a kid we think is more important than them.  It's unfair and it'd damage the culture of competitiveness of the team.

I hear what you're saying and 99% of the time I would agree with you because you're right but we have 2 placeholder QB's on 1 year deals, realistically these guys won't be here next year so while you make a great point don't you think this is a different dynamic than what you would see if you had a vet who had been here a while and then they had the job yanked from them and just handed to Haskins without earning it?

 

I say this based on the fact Colt seems to still be injured and I wouldn't be surprised if we soon hear that he's being shelved for several weeks.  In that scenario, its only Case and he has little to no rapport with the team, I'm not sure any of his teammates actually know much about him or have any sort of loyalty so the fear of losing the teams respect doesn't seem to be as risky if it were Alex or Colt who was being replaced.

 

I'm not saying I'm right but our situation is a bit different.

[Peregrine]

Theres no reason to start Haskins in his first season so "he can get reps".  Poor Oline, lacking people to throw too, he would be shellshocked by year 2.

 

Mahomes didnt need to start season 1 in order to be great in season 2.  He just needed to learn, get reps in practice, let things slow down and then play with a solid line and receivers to throw too.  

[MariusVT]

I want Haskin's sitting as long as possible, if not the entire year.  He's green and needs to learn without running for his life.  That said, I'd definitely prefer Keenum over McCoy as the starter simply because Keenum doesn't have a noodle for an arm.

[GoDeep81]

Don't rush him Redskins!! (I almost got that out with a straight face) 😘

[NoCalMike]

47 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

 

Mahomes didnt need to start season 1 in order to be great in season 2.  He just needed to learn, get reps in practice, let things slow down and then play with a solid line and receivers to throw too.  

 

I think Mahomes & Haskins were drafted into different situations though.  Mahomes walked onto a playoff team that was on the cusp of contending for a superbowl possibly.  There was no reason or need to start him.   Haskins was drafted onto a perennial .500 (or just under .500) team that is in a continuous state of neutral, desperately in need of a franchise QB to anchor the team.    That doesn't mean he should start from Day 1, just that I think the Mahomes comparison is off a little.

 

Ultimately I look at like this....what do people think Colt and/or Keenum offer this team in the bigger picture?  We've seen enough of Colt to know he is limited. There is a reason he became a career backup relatively quick. That is not even taking into account that the guy gets injured if he is breathed on.  Keenum is sort of a mystery, he can be good under the right circumstances but then Denver was also ready to show him the door pretty much immediately.   

 

I don't think Haskins needs to start Week 1, but if the season gets to around the 6th week and the team isn't at least at the .500 mark, then I am not sure what the harm is in getting Haskins some NFL experience? 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

It's just going to happen naturally, organically," the No. 15 overall pick in in this year's NFL draft said. "I had to come to terms with that. Now that I've been here for a little bit, it's like, man, it's a process. ... By no means am I settling. I know that I want to be great and I know I will be great. It's just that I have to be in a place where I know what I'm doing."

For Haskins, it's a graduate-level course in quarterback play. As he pointed out, though he started only one season at Ohio State, he was there for three years and in the same system for two. He was able to learn the playbook with one full offseason, something he didn't have this year. He could play freely.

"He's not going to come in and have all the answers and know exactly what to do," Redskins quarterbacks coach Tim Rattay said. "That's the natural progression. It's not just throwing the ball, it's getting us in the right play, getting the right protection, protecting himself, where are his eyes and feet. Those are the things we have to hammer every day."

 

..."There are a lot of things we have to clean up," Rattay said.

 

Such as making sure he gets the right protection calls. Against Cleveland, one failed protection call resulted in a free blitzer who sacked Haskins. On a pick-six interception, he needed to be more patient to let a running back clear the linebacker before throwing. There were times his eyes were late to a target and his feet were off, leading to a high throw. On another interception -- this one an overthrow -- Haskins said given the down, distance and time (second-and-10, 1 minute, 10 seconds left in the half), he should have thrown a checkdown.

"I'm a learner," Haskins said. "I learn all type of ways: playing, listening, reading, studying. I want to grasp and be a sponge and learn as much as I can and be ready to play whenever they need me. I know I can do that and get the job done. All the vets are telling me I can and everyone has confidence in me. It's just being consistent."

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/38878/dwayne-haskins-showing-talent-how-much-he-still-must-learn

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Whenever I read articles like this it tips the balance in my mind that he has a better than 50-50 chance to succeed.  The word intangibles perhaps gets overused.  Maybe the better term is workaholic.  Shanny after leaving here made a strong case that RG3 wasn't a hard worker as for studying the game (he did work out his body like a fiend though) and he thought that contributed to his demise.

 

And I do like to cite Arians, just because I respect his offensive acumen.  And in his book he says a QB has to be a workaholic to succeed because every week presents a new challenge and defensive coordinators are focused on fooling you. 

 

The stuff below to me also shows that Haskins does benefit from watching the other QBs play.  I'd say sit him and selfishly 😀 (since i'll be at the game) start him against Miami.  Sit out the tough first 5 games and then play.  The only thing that would make me hesitate is if they are playing well at that point and in that case obvious we wouldn't want to break the momentum.

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/38878/dwayne-haskins-showing-talent-how-much-he-still-must-learn

That's why Haskins decided to start listening in on the huddle. It's something he did at Ohio State, but he didn't start doing it with the Redskins until Saturday. Haskins wanted to hear how veterans McCoy and Keenum called the play, how they directed the formation call at the receivers, how they directed the protection at the line, etc. There's a calmness.

 

"Calling plays is like an art," Haskins said. "It doesn't help when you get a new system and then you get a new install every day. I thought I had the plays last week; I got new plays this week and it's just throwing everything at you. I'm doing all right; I can do better."

When he's not in the huddle, at times he'll call the play for Rattay as if he is.

"He's got to be telling our quarterbacks coach his footwork, his read, his progression," offensive coordinator Kevin O'Connell said, "where he would've thrown the ball, what protection call he would've made, and all of a sudden if he's taking those reps in addition to the third of the reps we're giving him, he can start to grow at a rapid pace with the work he's putting in off the field and his physical skill set."

 

Every morning before all the quarterbacks meet, Haskins will meet with Rattay for at least 30 minutes to an hour. They'll meet another time at night. They go over a variety of topics, including proper footwork in the run game -- making sure Haskins is turning the right way -- or knowing all the formations and the accompanying routes. Sometimes he'll meet with coach Jay Gruden to go over a handful of plays.

"It's the huddle, his cadence, making sure guys are in the right spot and then it's what is the proper drop?" Rattay said. "We've got to tie in our drops to the route. He's been doing better in practice, and in the game he had a couple where he didn't. He can see if my drop isn't right, my throw is going to be late. It's going to be inaccurate. There's a lot of coachable things. The good thing is all those things are easily fixable."

 

The coaches will correct Haskins on the field -- just as they do the other players. On one throw last week, Gruden shouted out, "You're late! You're late!" They know he could afford to be late at Ohio State and make plays consistently; that won't be the case in the NFL.

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

I hear what you're saying and 99% of the time I would agree with you because you're right but we have 2 placeholder QB's on 1 year deals, realistically these guys won't be here next year so while you make a great point don't you think this is a different dynamic than what you would see if you had a vet who had been here a while and then they had the job yanked from them and just handed to Haskins without earning it?

 

I say this based on the fact Colt seems to still be injured and I wouldn't be surprised if we soon hear that he's being shelved for several weeks.  In that scenario, its only Case and he has little to no rapport with the team, I'm not sure any of his teammates actually know much about him or have any sort of loyalty so the fear of losing the teams respect doesn't seem to be as risky if it were Alex or Colt who was being replaced.

 

I'm not saying I'm right but our situation is a bit different. 

 

Every year is a new team.  It's not really about Keenum or McCoy needing a long history with the team to justify earning the starting QB position.  If one of them has been showing he deserves the job in camp, then that's enough.

 

If I were a 6 year vet and I saw every day in camp that Case Keenum is clearly the better starting option heading into the year, but the team gave the job to Haskins instead, I'd be pissed.  It'd be a signal that the team is punting on the season before it even begins.  And it'd be a signal that the competitions aren't fair and that the team is putting marketability and organizational politics ahead of winning.  I would stop sacrificing for the team and start playing for myself because my goal has to go from winning to getting through the season.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

 

Even Hall of Famers who know the game like the back of their hand throw INT's in camp.  Colt, Case, and Dwayne have all thrown Int's in camp.  We shouldn't be surprised by it.  I like that they're aggressive in camp.

 

Now in pre-season games, can they channel their aggressiveness well, or is it still unbridled.  Such as Dwayne avoiding the check down for a bigger attempt 15 yards further down the field.  I want to see Dwayne play with more talented guys around him.  There are TE's like Sprinkle, Flanagan, Holtz, etc all around the league.  Does he force things to those TE's because he feels that's the only way to get the ball to them, they won't separate well regardless?  Does Dwayne's aggressiveness change with a player like Reed?  If he's used to hitting Reed while he's got 2 yards of separation, will he stop trying to force it into tighter windows?

[Skinsinparadise]

If guys like Hoffman and Finlay, etc are correct then none of the Qbs are standing out in camp.  It's just that Haskins is behind the other 2.  But there have been no mentions that Case or Colt are burning up camp or for that matter being even mediocre.  It seems like the rap is the Qb position is likely going to be shaky.

 

That dovetails with my comments when I watched camp.  I'd still sit Haskins for awhile.  But I think the one thing maybe working for him is that there might not be an outcry for Case or Colt if they aren't standing out on their own.  If Case or Colt start burning it up in preseason or at the start of the season then its a different scene.  

 

The one thing I like about all of this is it makes this preseason more intriguing than the typical one. 

[clskinsfan]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If guys like Hoffman and Finlay, etc are correct than none of the Qbs are standing out in camp.  It's just that Haskins is behind the other 2.  But there have been no mentions that Case or Colt are burning up camp or for that matter being mediocre.  It seems like the rap is the Qb position is likely going to be shaky.

 

That dovetails with my comments when I watched camp.  I'd still sit Haskins for awhile.  But I think the one thing maybe working for him is that there might not be an outcry for Case or Colt if they aren't standing out on their own.  If Case or Colt start burning it up in preseason or at the start of the season then its a different scene.  

I do believe the team will win more games with either Case or Colt at QB instead of Haskins. But I just dont think it matters. This isnt a playoff team IMO. Especially without Trent in the fold. If you are going to miss the playoffs anyways you may as well get your rookie the reps. Now. Gruden knows he is fighting for his job as well. And I am sure that will have a huge impact in his decision. He needs to win. But regardless of who he starts he wont win enough to make a difference. 

[PartyPosse]

You’re playing for 2020 and beyond. Let the vets start most of the season and depending on where we are in the standings let Haskins play the last 3 or 4 games just to get his feet wet. By then he should have a better grasp on the speed of the game and should be better equipped to play.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

20 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

I do believe the team will win more games with either Case or Colt at QB instead of Haskins.

 

I'm unconvinced.  I do WANT to be convinced though.  I look forward to seeing Colt play in the preseason, and hopefully Case looks better (as well as Dwayne).

 

But here's Case's stats minus the blown Browns coverage where nobody covered a WR running in a straight line.  

3 completions, 8 attempts, 14 yards.  1.75 yards per attempt.  QB Rating of 45.83

 

Dwayne's QB Rating was about the same with the 2 interceptions. 

 

21 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

But I just dont think it matters. This isnt a playoff team IMO. Especially without Trent in the fold.

 

I'm with you for it not mattering as of right now (hope signs point upward after Game 2 or 3 of the pre-season).  I think this team can be playoff caliber, it's helped tremendously with Trent, but it's possible without him.  Things have to go right for that, turnovers, health, run game, and overall defense.

 

 

 

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

If you are Jay Gruden, How much playing time does # 7 get on Thursday ?

 

 

Keenum clearly the #1 QB opens and plays the entire 1st qrt.  I'd then let Haskins play the reminder of the game. 

 

[RandyHolt]

If Case cannot grasp Jay's playbook, perhaps he needs to consider purging it, and fast.

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

3 hours ago, MariusVT said:

I want Haskin's sitting as long as possible, if not the entire year.  He's green and needs to learn without running for his life.  That said, I'd definitely prefer Keenum over McCoy as the starter simply because Keenum doesn't have a noodle for an arm.

I'm sorry but you don't draft a QB in the first round in this day and age and let him sit the entire year because he is "green". The game isn't about that anymore and if thats the case then we clearly over-reached with the 15th pick. That's crazy talk

 

  Listen I'm in love with Haskins skill set. He's in the mold of a Ben Rothlesburger who i love . Big frame, Huge Cannon, Not afraid to sling it downfield and judging from his first game seems to be at his best when doing so. You have to let this kid play, sink or swim. If this kid can play great if not I want to know NOW not in 2021 I want to know in week 16 and yes we will KNOW . W e already did the Jason Campbell era and say, next year he will put it together, No sorry, next year and so on and so on.

 

  Personally I think Haskins is going to be a good one, I just got this gut feeling & there is too much raw talent there. I could see him being a wild ride type QB, throwing a pick 6 and then coming back the next drive with a 70 yard TD strike. Maybe thats the problem, we have this Tom Brady like vison of perfection thats not very realistic. 

 

  This is crazy to even be discussing this after 1 preseason game but I'm bored, Its Monday and i love me some Redskins talk. 😀

 

 

[RandyHolt]

I remain enticed at the idea of using this season to get Haskins much needed reps. Sitting him all year makes it even more likely a new coach feels he is woefully inexperienced.  Some form of regime change seems all but inevitable to me, if not a full house cleaning. 

 

The new coach will likely insist on "his guy" than a guy with only 1 year of college experience.  Yet will be taking his QB with a middling pick in a deep class, and the cycle of mediocrity continues in DC.

 

Thinking Haskins will get ruined by playing this year assumes he can't handle the heat of playing. I remain convinced swapping out overly complex playbooks and coaches every year derails a young QB more than playing behind a porous OL utilizing a simplified playbook catering to his strengths.

 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[PartyPosse]

53 minutes ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

If you are Jay Gruden, How much playing time does # 7 get on Thursday ?

 

 

Keenum clearly the #1 QB opens and plays the entire 1st qrt.  I'd then let Haskins play the reminder of the game. 

 

 No. I’d play Haskins the entire first half and colt and case split third and fourth. 3rd game Case gets first half. 

[Fresh8686]

Haskins hasn't met the developmental benchmarks needed to be the starting QB. When he does so, he can be, but not before, no matter what fans may want.

 

If I had to choose a static date to start him, it would be against Miami in week 6, but a static date is a stupid way to go about determining when he starts.

He has to meet those dynamic thresholds of NFL Level fundamentals in processing, mechanics, and protections. This is necessary because, those base level fundamentals will be what protects him from regression and supports him as he strives for an upwards progressive curve.

Again, it's not about a static date, it's about whenever the progress reaches past and solidifies beyond those fundamental benchmarks of skill acquisition.