FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[SkinsFTW]

The Don't be a fan later thing is actually sad because it shows that this guy, and others on the team, don't really have any idea what they are up against in dealing with the ineptitude they've been doomed to fail under from Day 1.

 

Unless he's an actual real life superhero it's going to end as we all know that it will.

 

Sell the Team!!!

 

 

[volsmet]

2 hours ago, dballer said:

 

I would say a simple playbook, executed by a playmaker, can be better than a complicated playbook executed by a scrub. 

 

Can a scrub execute a complicated playbook or is not what makes him a scrub his inability to execute?

 

 

[CowboyKillerz]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Sure, my point there wasn't a critique of Haskins but saying when you watch him in practice Jay-O'Connell don't seem to be on Mars with the idea that he needs time.  He looked raw.  And naturally I blame Keenum, a veteran, for missing open receivers, and it wasn't just those 2 deep balls.  And give Haskins a break for his misses.  He also ironically had a wide open receiver on a go route which I missed watching the game but saw it on coaches tape. 

 

My point on the check downs is one play he had one who also had a lot of daylight to get YAC if Haskins decided to throw to him.  Another one where a receiver was signaling Haskins that he's wide open but Haskins only looked to his right and never looked his way.  Using that play as an example, I doubt Jay had 5 reads considering Haskins only looked at one side of the field, if he looked the other way he'd have had an easy completion. 

 

They schemed up two 5 yardish easy passes in the red zone where receivers were open and Haskins missed them.  I can't really blame Jay and O'Connell for that.  Neither looked like a hard read.  One of those plays was right in his line of vision.

 

The reason why I think you got to bring O'Connell into this conversation is because I've read-heard that what you are clamoring for which is scheming something specific that Haskins should excel at right away -- that's been his specific task.  Jay's running the whole team.  Haskins is just one player.  O'Connell is the dude working with his pal, Ryan Day to incorporate plays that Haskins is comfortable with.  So if Jay is supposedly failing Haskins then O'Connell should be getting an F minus because that's his specific assignment.

 

Personally, I'd let Haskins sit a little more, regroup and try this again after the bye week.  And if Haskins struggles I got no scapegoats for it -- at least not at the moment.  

To be fair- O'Connel doesn't call the plays. He very well could have a short list of plays to call that Haskins excells at... Doesn't mean thats what Jay call(s)/ed

[Voice_of_Reason]

29 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

The Don't be a fan later thing is actually sad because it shows that this guy, and others on the team, don't really have any idea what they are up against in dealing with the ineptitude they've been doomed to fail under from Day 1.

 

Unless he's an actual real life superhero it's going to end as we all know that it will.

 

Sell the Team!!!

 

 

I don’t expect Haskins to know the history of what’s transpired here over the years.

 

And I do think this is a bit different than Landon Collins running his mouth, or Flowers yapping about the Giants after a loss, or all the stupid stuff Josh Norman has said. 

 

Those things are very off putting.

[Voice_of_Reason]

So I typically think Doc is a caricature of himself, but he, Finlay and Galdi just has a segment where they were talking about changes and getting Haskins out there, and Galdi said that look at what Pitt did to prepare their rookie QB who improved week 2 and 3.  

 

Galdi just said they adapted to what the kid could do after seeing him perform poorly in his first start.

 

And then all three just screamed and agreed that “we don’t do that.  Jay has his system and that’s that.”

 

JP is about as neutral to positive on Jay as anybody in the media and even he said that they don’t adapt.  

[MartinC]

I've been saying since Haskins was drafted that week 6 versus the Dolphins will be his first start. That still looks like it would be a very good bet.

 

The bigger question is will Jay still be the HC when it happens.

[dballer]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

 

Can a scrub execute a complicated playbook or is not what makes him a scrub his inability to execute?

 

 

 

True true. How about “attempting to execute”...Colt McCoy knows all the reads, he just can’t make the ball get to them in time or on target often enough. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

@Skinsinparadise 

It goes back to the #1 Jay issue: he can’t adapt.  He just doesn’t have it in him.

 

If Jay is that level lost and frankly would have to be really really stupid if just any random fan could see exactly how to tailor an offense to a rookie QB and he on the other hand is missing it -- then why isn't Dan firing him and why should we trust him not to hire another moron next?

 

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

@Skinsinparadise the issue is not that they are making things hard on Haskins.  The problem is they are not making things easy on him.  

 

You should quickly get off the O'Connell bandwagon then (I don't recall if you are on it or not) since he's the dude with the task of making it easier on him. He would have to be just as lost a puppy as Jay is in that case.  

[RandyHolt]

I hope someone asks Jay the obvious, why didn't you just plan to start Haskins vs the Giants.

Instead, he limped out Case who got further injured, at the same time using Haskins without even the courtesy of knowing he would play.  Maybe he told Haskins Case likely will not finish the game, be ready... but if it was that obvious, just play Haskins.  And let Case get 2 full weeks of rest.

 

We have 1 healthy QB.  If Jay and our crack medical team keep forcing injured guys to play, we run risk of having 1 QB, period.  That's no way to go through life, son.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, CowboyKillerz said:

To be fair- O'Connel doesn't call the plays. He very well could have a short list of plays to call that Haskins excells at... Doesn't mean thats what Jay call(s)/ed

 

It's true especially if Jay is trying to sabotage Haskins.  O'Connell figured out what to run, talked to Day, etc -- then Jay for fun doesn't call a single one of those plays.  Because..well, why not?  😀

 

 

[NickyJ]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If Jay is that level lost and frankly would have to be really really stupid if just any random fan could see exactly how to tailor an offense to a rookie QB and he on the other hand is missing it -- then why isn't Dan firing him and why should we trust him not to hire another moron next?

 

Because our front office is incompetent. It really doesn't seem like a big revelation on the 9th year.

 

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

You should quickly get off the O'Connell bandwagon then (I don't recall if you are on it or not) since he's the dude with the task of making it easier on him. He would have to be just as lost a puppy as Jay is in that case.

I have no dog in the O'Connell debates, but can we honestly say O'Connell isn't making things easy enough for Haskins if O'Connell doesn't actually do anything? He's an offensive coordinator that isn't being allowed to coordinate. He doesn't call plays, so what does he actually do that can influence Haskins aside from being another teacher in an office. It's why I have no opinion on his coaching material. We have yet to see any of his material in practice.

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Because our front office is incompetent. It really doesn't seem like a big revelation on the 9th year.

 

OK that incompetence would have to epic level if fans knew how to come up with a scheme much better than their coaches who have said player in their building.  So if the FO is that level incompetent where they supposedly have morons running the team and they are seeing all the moronic things happen right in their face every day -- then its tough for me to get jazzed for their next brainstorm as for the next coach "savior".   Plus is makes me uneasy that the other coaches here were mostly failures, too.  

 

29 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Because our front office is incompetent. It really doesn't seem like a big revelation on the 9th year.

 

I have no dog in the O'Connell debates, but can we honestly say O'Connell isn't making things easy enough for Haskins if O'Connell doesn't actually do anything? He's an offensive coordinator that isn't being allowed to coordinate. He doesn't call plays, so what does he actually do that can influence Haskins aside from being another teacher in an office. It's why I have no opinion on his coaching material. We have yet to see any of his material in practice.

 

By the same logic then teams should stop talking about Bieniemy from the Chiefs as a hot coaching candidate since Reid calls the plays on game day.  Unless that's changed this year, I haven't paid attention.   Though Bieniemy had buzz about him last year, too.

 

But actually seriously my 2 cents on it is I've watched a practice leading to game day -- it is a big deal to be running a practice.  They have the unit all to themselves.  Jay just moves from section to section but doesn't just sit with the offense.   From what I've read, O'Connell does give suggestions and adds input including specific plays.  Supposedly that was the case last year too -- O'Connell pushed the heavier reliance on the sweeps among other plays according to what's been said.   And I've heard multiple times he's the dude specifically tasked to help Haskins.  O'Connell has talked about it in interviews about how he's spoken several times to Day (who he's close with) about Haskins and what he's good at and what he's not good at -- what plays he likes, etc. 

 

I got no issue with O'Connell.  I am saying I don't blame Jay or O'Connell for squat relating to Haskins at the moment.  But if the theme is we aren't playing to Haskins strengths and what he likes to do -- that from what I read is on O'Connell's plate.   I don't agree with the hit.  But if someone wants to make it, I can't see how O'Connell would be removed from that criticism. 

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, SkinsFTW said:

The Don't be a fan later thing is actually sad because it shows that this guy, and others on the team, don't really have any idea what they are up against in dealing with the ineptitude they've been doomed to fail under from Day 1.

 

Unless he's an actual real life superhero it's going to end as we all know that it will.

 

Sell the Team!!!

 

His only other option available to him is to accept his fate and give up. So I appreciate the kids heart, personally. 

 

And he grew up here. Was a fan of RG3 and watched that burn to the ground. And was a Giants fan so he either hated the Redskins, or he felt sorry for them. Only really two options there. So him being analytical, a huge football fan, and NOT a Redskins fan leaves the kid with no delusions about whats going on here. He is faced with a choice of letting the Redskins ruin his dream of being an NFL QB or dragging us kicking and screaming with him to success. 

 

He cant do it by himself. And he may not know that yet. But I prefer him to try and do everything in his power to help while he is here and the 'dont be a fan now' thing is him turning his back on negativity to help do just that. If anything, hes doing exactly what we need him to do. Because if we wait for the front office to change the mindset in that building, it wont change. 

 

I think we can cut him slack here, at least. 

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I don’t expect Haskins to know the history of what’s transpired here over the years.

 

He does though. He wrote a paper in college about it. Ima see if I can find it. 

[CowboyKillerz]

 

15 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

I have no dog in the O'Connell debates, but can we honestly say O'Connell isn't making things easy enough for Haskins if O'Connell doesn't actually do anything? He's an offensive coordinator that isn't being allowed to coordinate. He doesn't call plays, so what does he actually do that can influence Haskins aside from being another teacher in an office. It's why I have no opinion on his coaching material. We have yet to see any of his material in practice.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

We have zero proof that O'Connell has been ABLE to implement anything he has worked on with Haskins. Tge game plan was made for Case, and Gruden stuck with the program. He didnt hand the keys to Haskins and then  the headset to O'Connell- didnt even see him talking to his OC tbh.

[ntotoro]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's true especially if Jay is trying to sabotage Haskins.  O'Connell figured out what to run, talked to Day, etc -- then Jay for fun doesn't call a single one of those plays.  Because..well, why not?  😀

 

Jay is concerned about one thing: Jay. He didn't want to groom RG3 (who was probably a hopeless cause, but... ), he doesn't want to groom Haskins. He's concerned only with Jay and his precious pet projects from the Island of Misfit Football Players like McCoy, Perine, Kelley and etcetera.

[wit33]

Random thought:

 

Im still perplexed by the Byron Leftwich comparisons. 

 

 

Let the dude sit and observe Colt McCoy run the offense with pace, flow, winning energy, and consistency. If Colt starts, the Skins will have stretches of 5-10 minutes of momentum in their favor. Now, I’m not totally losing is, as I realize Colt can be TO prone, so there’s a chance momentum is snatched away quickly to never return, but the percentages favor Colt to establish periods of momentum versus Haskins and Keenum. 

 

Load the Colt “12”

[volsmet]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

So I typically think Doc is a caricature of himself, but he, Finlay and Galdi just has a segment where they were talking about changes and getting Haskins out there, and Galdi said that look at what Pitt did to prepare their rookie QB who improved week 2 and 3.  

 

 

It’s hardly a surprise that those brilliant minds think Rudolph is a rookie.

 

[MartinC]

22 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Because our front office is incompetent. It really doesn't seem like a big revelation on the 9th year.

 

I have no dog in the O'Connell debates, but can we honestly say O'Connell isn't making things easy enough for Haskins if O'Connell doesn't actually do anything? He's an offensive coordinator that isn't being allowed to coordinate. He doesn't call plays, so what does he actually do that can influence Haskins aside from being another teacher in an office. It's why I have no opinion on his coaching material. We have yet to see any of his material in practice.

 

Do you know what an offensive coordinator does?

 

Play calling is the end of a process. There is a crap load of work in the process that leads up to a call sheet in the hands of a play caller.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

Jay is concerned about one thing: Jay. He didn't want to groom RG3 (who was probably a hopeless cause, but... ), 

 

Name a HC who doesn't care about themselves.  Jay isn't a Redskins fan.  He's a paid professional.  Why would he care about the future in a win or you are out season?  That's the point of the Keim article which I posted here.

 

I get there is some hostility with Jay with some about RG3.   I understand it, I felt that way too.  But Jay was right.   People like Cooley later said that Jay knew pretty quickly that RG3 can't play.  He was correct.   RG3 didn't vindicate himself elsewhere.

 

RG3 wasn't clamoring at that point to return to be a RO QB.  If you recall the whole celebration of Jay in the context of RG3 was unlike the evil Shanny -- Jay wasn't going to try to make RG3 a RO QB and instead try to develop him as a WCO guy.  RG3 himself talked about it and was jazzed.

 

As for Haskins, he's likely Jay's only hope for saving his job.  IMO RG3 and Haskins are apples to oranges with the exception of the apparent Dan Snyder man crush about both dudes.   From what's being said, Jay thinks Haskins indeed has a chance but he isn't ready yet.

 

 

[ntotoro]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As for Haskins, he's likely Jay's only hope for saving his job.  RG3 and Haskins are apples to oranges with the exception of the apparent Dan Snyder man crush about both dudes.

 

And Jay's lack of desire to really coach either one, albeit for different reasons.

[Llevron]

1 minute ago, ntotoro said:

 

And Jay's lack of desire to really coach either one, albeit for different reasons.

 

RG3 was literally damaged good though. I agree he didnt give my man much of a chance, but dude was right. You cant learn to be a QB on IR and thats where RG3 was almost the entire time. 

[ntotoro]

Just now, Llevron said:

 

RG3 was literally damaged good though. I agree he didnt give my man much of a chance, but dude was right. You cant learn to be a QB on IR and thats where RG3 was almost the entire time. 

 

RGIII was done, for many reasons. Some even before he started. I'm thinking more of Haskins now. Jay doesn't want to coach him because he knows he (Jay) is a short-timer. He wanted to win now to save his job. That won't happen with a rookie QB with a lot of potential, but little actual on-field experience. Personally, I don't want him getting his dumpster juice all over Haskins for the next Coach, either.

[RandyHolt]

I think the historical record will show OC/HCs do not cater their playbooks to young QBs. While a lot of progress has been made on that front, coaches are still very much tethered to their playbooks.  Heck, look at Manusky and our likely record setting inept defense. I will take this moment to predict Brady converts every 3rd down pass he attempts... if he even faces a 3rd down.

 

OSU ditched their playbook for Haskins. Made everyone else learn a playbook catered to him.  It can work.

 

I wish there was an easy way to quantify how many OC's got fired because they didn't cater their playbooks to young QBs in the past 50 years.  It's only been 10 years that we have seen change on that front.  I think Jay's complex scheme gets guys open and he knows it and that is his ticket to success.... in his mind. It's that desperation clinging to his playbook that has him clinging onto Colt McCoy. Colt gets it.

 

It is because of coach stubbornness that fans think they can out smart NFL coaches. It's not that coaches are dumb, but their playbooks are their bibles and have to eat a BIG piece of humble pie, to scrap it for an unproven rookie.  "He has to show me he is the best QB on the roster, to play."  People that are insane often have off their chart IQs... not that i would know.  The human mind can be mind boggling.  Forest trees... no TV no beer something something.

 

 

[NickyJ]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK that incompetence would have to epic level if fans knew how to come up with a scheme much better than their coaches who have said player in their building.  So if the FO is that level incompetent where they supposedly have morons running the team and they are seeing all the moronic things happen right in their face every day -- then its tough for me to get jazzed for their next brainstorm as for the next coach "savior".   Plus is makes me uneasy that the other coaches here were mostly failures, too.  

 

I am neither jazzed about a new coach nor about Jay Gruden. When a building is on fire and there's flames covering the entire room, I don't feel much like sitting down on a chair and saying "well, that's life" and waxing philosophical about how the building permits weren't up to code on fire escapes. If anyone wants to do that, be my guest, but I'm trying the doors. Maybe there's fire behind them, maybe not. But I can't honestly say I'm "jazzed" about basic attempts at survival.

 

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

By the same logic then teams should stop talking about Bieniemy from the Chiefs as a hot coaching candidate since Reid calls the plays on game day.  Unless that's changed this year, I haven't paid attention.   Though Bieniemy had buzz about him last year, too.

Sounds good to me lol

 

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

But actually seriously my 2 cents on it is I've watched a practice leading to game day -- it is a big deal to be running a practice.  They have the unit all to themselves.  Jay just moves from section to section but doesn't just sit with the offense.   From what I've read, O'Connell does give suggestions and adds input including specific plays.  Supposedly that was the case last year too -- O'Connell push the heavier reliance on the sweeps among other plays according to what's been said.   And I've heard multiple times he's the dude specifically tasked to help Haskins.  O'Connell has talked about it in interviews about how he's spoken several times to Day (who he's close with) about Haskins and what he's good at and what he's not good at -- what plays he likes, etc. 

 

I got no issue with O'Connell.  I am saying I don't blame Jay or O'Connell for squat relating to Haskins at the moment.  But if the theme is we aren't playing to Haskins strengths and what he likes to do -- that from what I read is on O'Connell's plate.   I don't agree with the hit.  But if someone wants to make it, I can't see how O'Connell would be removed from that criticism. 

I can't say I'm an expert on how offenses are run, but what VoR had been mentioning - easier reads, different playcalls on 1st downs, hurry up - all seem to me to be something that the lead play caller has to actually implement himself. Gruden would have to limit his concepts used, change the way he runs things. Kevin O'Connell running practices and sprinkling in plays here and there is nice, but that sounds very much like minor adjustments and touches that Gruden allows him to make, not the authority to make fundamental changes to the playbook and the overall gameplan. Gruden has final say on how the offense is run, and what comes out as the finished product seems very much to not be geared towards making the offense easier for a rookie.

 

20 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Do you know what an offensive coordinator does?

 

Play calling is the end of a process. There is a crap load of work in the process that leads up to a call sheet in the hands of a play caller.

I'm sure it does, but we rarely get to see what the results of his body of work are when his and everyone else's are under the roof of one head coach. Play-calling is easier to judge. O'Connell doesn't call plays, so I have nothing to judge him with. Which is exactly my point: I don't judge O'Connell for how much easier he makes the offense for Haskins when there's no tangible play-calling for us to judge him with.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

 

It is because of coach stubbornness that fans think they can out smart NFL coaches. It's not that coaches are dumb, but their playbooks are their bibles and have to eat a BIG piece of humble pie, to scrap it for an unproven rookie.  "He has to show me he is the best QB on the roster, to play."  People that are insane often have off their chart IQs... not that i would know.  The human mind can be mind boggling.  Forest trees... no TV no beer something something.

 

 

 

the thing is they've talked about coming up with specific plays for Dwayne.  Hoffman flat out said they have a specific package ready for Haskins when it's time for him to play.  O'Connell talked about talking to Ryan Day and incorporating things to help Dwayne.

 

Some of the points made here by some are presuming either:

 

A.  Jay and O'Connell lied about it or did come up with plays but forgot about them in the heat of battle?

B.  They do have plays but they are both too dense to come up with the right ones

C.  Jay knows exactly what he's doing and that is making Dwayne look bad for whatever reason

D.  Some fans know exactly how to come up with the right playbook for Dwayne, its super obvious, and why isn't it super obvious to Jay?

 

I get when a coach is on the way out they are demonized as a moron, good riddance on and on.  It was the same in Shanny's last year.  It's been that way for every coach here from what I recall sans Marty and Gibbs.   I guess where I depart is while I've wanted some coaches to go to including Shanny in his last year -- but i didn't think the coach was stupid sans perhaps Zorn. 😀  I know you are saying here that coaches aren't dumb but the level of things that Jay is being challenged on by some you'd figure the poor sap can barely eat with utensils let alone run an offense. 

 

I've watched 5 of Dwayne's games twice.  I love watching my share of X and O type of shows.  I've watched 5 of Dwayne's practices. But still i am an amateur and big time, it's a hobby.    I wouldn't dare walk into Jay's office and say dude let me explain to you that rookie QB's need to be handled differently.  You find out what they did in college and you incorporate that -- while Jay is furiously writing everything down.  Then I give him a notebook of plays I came up with and say dude trust me -- run these and Haskins will be fine.  Jay gives me a hug and gets together with his staff and gets to work.😀

 

The sarcasm there isn't directed at you.  I am just making a point that the coaches have indicated they are aware that rookies need to be treated differently from veterans. O'Connell specifically talked up Ohio State concepts.   And when I watched the game on coaches tape and froze the stills -- the impression I was left with wasn't that Jay left Haskins out to dry.  I don't think its Jay being dense about it or like you say stubbornly resisting it.  Maybe I'd feel differently if I never heard them talking about the subject specifically before. 

 

I do think some of the criticism of Jay is about people being burnt out by him and are ready for him to go.  So let's throw another log in the fire and enjoy watching it burn.  I get that.  I like to vent, too.  I do it plenty.  But IMO some of the criticism is being carried way too far.  😀  And if Jay is as stupid as some depict him to be then we got to be really frightened (not energized by it) that the same people who hired him are poised to hire the next one.