FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[KDawg]

16 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

A. You cannot be serious. 

B. Why so specific to the last 2 pages? Just odd.

 

I thought it was rather clear that the entire reason for TSO making his original post on the matter is because of the false narratives about Jay 'sabotaging' Haskins, not calling plays to his strengths, being unwilling to make changes for him, etc.  Many of those types of statements were being made by folks who don't even understand what they are looking at.  They are just predisposed to making it the coach's fault.

 

 

 

A. I am. I wouldn't ask if I wasn't.

B. Because the discussion the last two pages has been pretty damn open and honest as it pertains to playcalling/Haskins abilities. 

C. Your third paragraph answers my question and I appreciate it. Thanks

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, KDawg said:

A. I am. I wouldn't ask if I wasn't.

My comment wasn't mean for anyone in particular and more just a general statement that can pertain to damn near every QB to ever take a snap for the burgundy and gold.  Some certainly get more hot takes than others obviously, but it's been prevalent with all of them.  It just seems there always has to be a bad guy and that argument is colored by biases against one party or the other.

 

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

B. Because the discussion the last two pages has been pretty damn open and honest as it pertains to playcalling/Haskins abilities. 

There is definitely some solid discussion in there, primarily prompted by TSO's post which I saw as a catch-all taking on the many false narratives about what transpired in the Giants game.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

I noticed with McLaurin and Richardson on the field at the same time -- Jay would interchange quite a bit one of the two going deep with one of them occupying a corner and free safety, with two underneath receivers in between the numbers -- sometimes with the underneath receivers running a high cross and a shallow cross, sometimes quick outs, etc.  Which is close to the Philly concept if I got that play right but not exactly.  But Jay seemed to have fun interchanging the two deep threats.    

[JSSkinz]

 

[RandyHolt]

For all the discussions about play calling and catering, no first team reps, it's becoming apparent the elephant in the room are his poor mechanics.   Maybe that is where the real discussion needs to happen. Can those be corrected within a reasonable time frame, or not.  I am quickly fearing, not.  And suspect the new coach won't want to deal with it, unless its HCKOC.

 

How many years are we looking at it taking to get his mechanics corrected?

 

If his mechanics are indeed that bad, maybe the play calling for him discussion is irrelevant. It's easy to pile on any coach on a win less team, and I am guilty of that. But with Haskins SO raw, maybe Jay literally and figuratively cannot win.

[TSO]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I noticed with McLaurin and Richardson on the field at the same time -- Jay would interchange quite a bit one of the two going deep with one of them occupying a corner and free safety, with two underneath receivers in between the numbers -- sometimes with the underneath receivers running a high cross and a shallow cross, sometimes quick outs, etc.  But Jay seemed to have fun interchanging the two deep threats.  

Good stuff... as an aside, it probably doesn’t matter at this point, but I would love to see how this offense looks with Guice, McClaurin, Richardson, Quinn and Reed on the field at the same time. 
 

The offense would have an answer to anything, both in the run game and pass game. Stinks we’ll likely never see that. But, man, would be nice. 😕

[dballer]

4 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

For all the discussions about play calling and catering, no first team reps, it's becoming apparent the elephant in the room are his poor mechanics.   Maybe that is where the real discussion needs to happen. Can those be corrected within a reasonable time frame, or not.  I am quickly fearing, not.  And suspect the new coach won't want to deal with it, unless its HCKOC.

 

How many years are we looking at it taking to get his mechanics corrected?

 

If his mechanics are indeed that bad, maybe the play calling for him discussion is irrelevant. It's easy to pile on any coach on a win less team, and I am guilty of that. But with Haskins SO raw, maybe Jay literally and figuratively cannot win.

 

It is not all of it. Some of it is reading more complex defensive looks, and the timing of the game. Mechanics can be worked on in practice, the others are mostly worked on in game. Also, in the short term, his ability can mask mechanical issues in some situations. 

 

Again, if you are truly trying to win games, Haskins probably needs to sit. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

Good stuff... as an aside, it probably doesn’t matter at this point, but I would love to see how this offense looks with Guice, McClaurin, Richardson, Quinn and Reed on the field at the same time. 
 

The offense would have an answer to anything, both in the run game and pass game. Stinks we’ll likely never see that. But, man, would be nice. 😕

 

I agree.  The thing that is said about Jay's offense a lot is that it runs inside-out.  It sets up plays for the slot receiver and TE.  Jordan reed had has best year from what I recall when Desean was here.  I recall when they beat Philly to clinch the division in 2015 -- Desean said Philly wasn't going to let him beat them but that meant that Jordan Reed was set up to do it.

 

When you have a legitimate deep threat who can occupy the free safety among other things -- guys like Jordan Reed thrive. 

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

 

 

Not shocking in the absolute least.

 

5 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

For all the discussions about play calling and catering, no first team reps, it's becoming apparent the elephant in the room are his poor mechanics.   Maybe that is where the real discussion needs to happen. Can those be corrected within a reasonable time frame, or not.  I am quickly fearing, not.  And suspect the new coach won't want to deal with it, unless its HCKOC.

 

How many years are we looking at it taking to get his mechanics corrected?

 

If his mechanics are indeed that bad, maybe the play calling for him discussion is irrelevant. It's easy to pile on any coach on a win less team, and I am guilty of that. But with Haskins SO raw, maybe Jay literally and figuratively cannot win.

 

This is where the conversation should have always been with Haskins. It was definitely there pre draft. The kid is a project. A massive one. His first round ability was hamstrung by his mechanics and thats why not everyone had him graded as a first rounder. 

 

Although, some improvements in mechanics generally show their face at this point, even in a developmental project. I hope a light switch goes on with him. I don't even care if it's for the Redskins. I want the kid to kick ass and prove his worth in the league.

 

1 minute ago, thesubmittedone said:

Good stuff... as an aside, it probably doesn’t matter at this point, but I would love to see how this offense looks with Guice, McClaurin, Richardson, Quinn and Reed on the field at the same time. 
 

The offense would have an answer to anything, both in the run game and pass game. Stinks we’ll likely never see that. But, man, would be nice. 😕

 

Here's the issue there: Still no answer for the right side of our line collapsing like an umbrella in a hurricane. I'm not sure having all of them would have mattered all that much.

[dballer]

4 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

Good stuff... as an aside, it probably doesn’t matter at this point, but I would love to see how this offense looks with Guice, McClaurin, Richardson, Quinn and Reed on the field at the same time. 
 

The offense would have an answer to anything, both in the run game and pass game. Stinks we’ll likely never see that. But, man, would be nice. 😕

 

I am sure on paper Gruden looked at the offense to begin the season and is like "Dude, I can score 30 points a game, even with Colt or Case"...

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Here's the issue there: Still no answer for the right side of our line collapsing like an umbrella in a hurricane. I'm not sure having all of them would have mattered all that much.

 

If we are getting fantastical here, Trent is back at LT and Penn is moved over to RT 😅

[TSO]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Here's the issue there: Still no answer for the right side of our line collapsing like an umbrella in a hurricane. I'm not sure having all of them would have mattered all that much.

That’s true. Can never be healthy everywhere for any significant chunk of time. Even relatively healthy. It’s ridiculous. 
 

I’m at a point where Allen being fired won’t be enough for me. Larry Hess has to go, too. He’s been here since like 2003 or something. We’ve rarely been relatively healthy. He’s a Snyder guy, though, so he’ll probably stay even if we get a new legit GM. 
 

That’ll actually be a good indicator if said new GM is able to do what he wants. If someone like Hess isn’t held accountable, we’ll know he’s already hamstrung by Dan. Or just not very smart, lol. There’s just no way in my mind, especially with the Trent debacle now, that he’s an asset that we need to keep. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, thesubmittedone said:

That’s true. Can never be healthy everywhere for any significant chunk of time. Even relatively healthy. It’s ridiculous. 
 

I’m at a point where Allen being fired won’t be enough for me. Larry Hess has to go, too. He’s been here since like 2003 or something. We’ve rarely been relatively healthy. He’s a Snyder guy, though, so he’ll probably stay even if we get a new legit GM. 
 

That’ll actually be a good indicator if said new GM is able to do what he wants. If someone like Hess isn’t held accountable, we’ll know he’s already hamstrung by Dan. Or just not very smart, lol. There’s just no way in my mind, especially with the Trent debacle now, that he’s an asset that we need to keep. 

 

Even if it's not really Hess' fault and it's a reliance on injury prone players (I really tend to side more towards that perspective, to be honest), it's probably time to let him go elsewhere (he'll find a damn good job no problem). The reset button needs to truly be hit on this franchise.

[TSO]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

Even if it's not really Hess' fault and it's a reliance on injury prone players (I really tend to side more towards that perspective, to be honest), it's probably time to let him go elsewhere (he'll find a damn good job no problem). The reset button needs to truly be hit on this franchise.

Yeah, I leaned towards that at first, too, but when considering our history and how it’s almost always an issue going back multiple coaches and how so often it’s because players are playing when they shouldn’t be (rushed back too quickly). Now you add Trent’s issue. I have to say, it’s impossible for me to think Hess isn’t a big problem himself. Add the reliance on injury prone players as well as the facilities and you get consecutive years of being the most injured team in the league. 
 

He’s another holdover of Snyder’s that survives no matter what. That, in and of itself, is culturally problematic. It’s an accountability issue and he has no reason to be loyal to anyone else. Not his fault, necessarily, that’s on Dan, but it’s a big issue. 

[volsmet]

Going back 15 starts into the football life of Dwayne Haskins:

 

 

 

[desertbeagle85]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Over time on ES, I've learned this is pretty much how it goes when things don't work...

 

Fans who don't like the coach/playcaller, but like the QB....it's all the coach's fault for not playing to the QB's strengths, preparing them, etc.

 

Fans who don't like the QB, but do like the coach/playcaller....the QB just sucks.

 

 

 

 

How about the QB that's been here for only a couple months compared to the coach that's been here going on 6 years. 

 

Gruden has had a number of QBs to work with and yet hasn't won anything with any of them. I don't understand how anyone can really back Gruden at this point. He's shown he can't get the job done and it's not like he was some proven HC before coming here. 

 

Let's be clear he was his brothers water boy before and he's going to be his water boy again. Gruden is a bum and I agree so is Bruce. The biggest bum of all is Dan Snyder. If we as fans had a choice we would fire them all. Point is like Haskins or not. He needs a real shot before we know for sure what he is. Gruden got more than 5 years. He's got his shot and now he needs to go. 

[dballer]

2 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Going back 15 starts into the football life of Dwayne Haskins:

 

 

 

 

I hate to say this because I want to see him on the field asap...but he sure did develop quite a bit on the bench at OSU 😅

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

Yeah, I leaned towards that at first, too, but when considering our history and how it’s almost always an issue going back multiple coaches and how so often it’s because players are playing when they shouldn’t be (rushed back too quickly). Now you add Trent’s issue. I have to say, it’s impossible for me to think Hess isn’t a big problem himself. Add the reliance on injury prone players as well as the facilities and you get consecutive years of being the most injured team in the league. 
 

He’s another holdover of Snyder’s that survives no matter what. That, in and of itself, is culturally problematic. It’s an accountability issue and he has no reason to be loyal to anyone else. Not his fault, necessarily, that’s on Dan, but it’s a big issue. 

 

Absolutely agree, that at the very least, you call him in and say, "Look. I like you. I like you a lot. But the injuries over time, the Williams situation, its hard for me to keep you on the payroll. I don't necessarily blame you for any of this stuff, but it's time that we move on from one another. This isn't good for the Redskins and it's not good for Larry Hess. You deserve a shot somewhere, and I'll give you recommendations any time you need them. And we need to start fresh."

 

Shake his hand.

 

Move forward.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, desertbeagle85 said:

How about the QB that's been here for only a couple months compared to the coach that's been here going on 6 years. 

 

Gruden has had a number of QBs to work with and yet hasn't won anything with any of them. I don't understand how anyone can really back Gruden at this point. He's shown he can't get the job done and it's not like he was some proven HC before coming here. 

 

Let's be clear he was his brothers water boy before and he's going to be his water boy again. Gruden is a bum and I agree so is Bruce. The biggest bum of all is Dan Snyder. If we as fans had a choice we would fire them all. Point is like Haskins or not. He needs a real shot before we know for sure what he is. Gruden got more than 5 years. He's got his shot and now he needs to go. 

We get it, man.  We really do.  You think Jay is a dunce that is lucky to find his shoes and tie them in the morning.

 

But none of that really has anything to do with what I said.  What I said has to do with a lot of the BS hot takes that are if not entirely false, primarily false, and just stuff guys make up in their own minds to support their disdain for the coach/QB.

[KDawg]

10 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Going back 15 starts into the football life of Dwayne Haskins:

 

 

 

 

 

Yup. He's very raw.

 

Very. Although, he's had some bench time at Ohio State and SOME in the NFL, you'd expect to see some improvement in one of his most glaring places - fundamental footwork.

 

Too early to give up on him, though. Kid has physical tools out the wazoo. And a great mentality (or at leas the public version of it)

[Llevron]

What I like about yall is I cant really tell if you like him or not. Which in my mind means objectivity. 

 

I dont walk away from your conversations feeling super good about his prospects as an NFL starter, but I do get a sense of his potential. 

[desertbeagle85]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

The problem isn't necessarily that the offense line stinks (that's *A* problem), the running back situation (*A* problem), reliance on injury prone players on both sides of the ball (*A* problem), the defense (*A* problem*), Manusky (*A* problem), Gruden (*A* problem), **** it isn't even Allen (*A* problem) all by himself.

 

It's the ****ty organizational structure that allows those problems to exist to begin with. I think you started to get to that at the end of your post... But while I agree with most of what you said (And i reallllllly do), those are symptoms of the overall pathological issue. Our organizational structure is built on a fault line.

 

 

I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make here. I clearly agree with you on a organizational stand point when it comes to this team. The point I was making is that we don't have a QB on the roster that would succeed in this dumpster fire we call a offense. Tom Brady, Aaron Rogers would have a hard to winning with this offense.

 

My point is simple and it's this. Haskins is the future and Haskins isn't going to make this team win any less games right now. Haskins should play, but the bigger problem is will playing him ruin him. He doesn't have a team around him and he doesn't have a coach that wants him. I think the best option is to wait until after this week and fire Gruden. Promote the OC for the remainder of the season and start Haskins against the Dolphins. 

 

It's going to be rough for Haskins because of all the holes on offense. With that being said if he shows any improvement through 8 weeks. There is no reason not to start building around him as the franchise QB. 

 

This BS from this fan base giving up on the kid already is a joke. Give up on Gruden or Allen. Give up on Snyder and anything else that has to do with this organization. To give up on a guy that hasn't even been given a shot yet is just pathetic. He was graded high by a number of qualified people. Yes they also said he was raw and needs to learn. Guess what Peyton Manning took years to develop into the monster he was. He needs a real shot and I'm sure he'll get it soon. If he does fail in this league. I'll be the 1st to blame this joke of a organization over the kid. 

 

Tom Brady wouldn't have 6 Superbowls if the Redskins drafted him. Hell he'd be lucky to have one. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I suspect this stuff will be part of the Sunday pregame shows.  Heck at least the Redskins are relevant again.  😀 National media mostly ignores us but this Haskins stuff has brought us back on their radar.

 

 

 

 

 

[dballer]

24 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

He’s another holdover of Snyder’s that survives no matter what. That, in and of itself, is culturally problematic. It’s an accountability issue and he has no reason to be loyal to anyone else. Not his fault, necessarily, that’s on Dan, but it’s a big issue. 

 

And this is what gives me nightmares about Bruce continuing on...

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, desertbeagle85 said:

 

 

My point is simple and it's this. Haskins is the future

 

Is he, though? IF this team changes just the head coach, I'd agree that he'll get saddled with Haskins whether he wants him or not. But if they change the GM (its still possible Snyder saddles them both with Haskins) this may or may not be the case. A coach may come in and love what Haskins offers and want him. Or they may want to shop for their own groceries for their soup. There is no reason to honestly believe that Haskins IS the future at this point, and that doesn't even take into account any of Haskins strides or struggles so far. 

 

Quote

With that being said if he shows any improvement through 8 weeks. There is no reason not to start building around him as the franchise QB.

 

With regime change I think there is some pause that needs to occur. But since I doubt we get that, you're probably correct.

Quote

This BS from this fan base giving up on the kid already is a joke. Give up on Gruden or Allen. Give up on Snyder and anything else that has to do with this organization. To give up on a guy that hasn't even been given a shot yet is just pathetic. He was graded high by a number of qualified people. Yes they also said he was raw and needs to learn. Guess what Peyton Manning took years to develop into the monster he was. He needs a real shot and I'm sure he'll get it soon. If he does fail in this league. I'll be the 1st to blame this joke of a organization over the kid. /quote]

 

 

 

 

 

Tom Brady wouldn't have 6 Superbowls if the Redskins drafted him. Hell he'd be lucky to have one.

 

 

I think you generalize a bit too much when you say fanbase, because a lot of folks are giving him the benefit of the doubt. But giving up on Gruden, Allen and Snyder essentially means giving up on Haskins as THIS franchise's franchise guy because there is no guarantee a new regime wants him. And nor should they be forced to take him. I say that, but again, it's entirely possible that they want to build around Dwayne. And if that organically happens... man, that's awesome.

 

As far as Brady goes... he probably wouldn't be in the league any more.
 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, desertbeagle85 said:

 

 

This BS from this fan base giving up on the kid already is a joke. Give up on Gruden or Allen. Give up on Snyder and anything else that has to do with this organization. To give up on a guy that hasn't even been given a shot yet is just pathetic. He was graded high by a number of qualified people. Yes they also said he was raw and needs to learn. Guess what Peyton Manning took years to develop into the monster he was. He needs a real shot and I'm sure he'll get it soon. If he does fail in this league. I'll be the 1st to blame this joke of a organization over the kid. 

 

Agree on the giving up on Haskins.  It's insane to me.  OK he's a rookie and he throws some picks in a half of a game.  So what?  He will likely struggle.  But I am in no panic about it.  The kid deserves a break IMO. 

 

On the other point.  He was graded high by qualified people.  He also wasn't graded high by qualified people.  Haskins was a polarizing prospect if you dig deep especially as the draft get nearer.  We posted a lot of the pro and con stuff at the time on the draft thread.

 

Having said that, Haskins not being a consensus slam dunk prospect is why IMO we could get him in the first place at 15.  If Haskins was universally embraced or close enough as a slam dunk or hard to miss franchise QB, he would have likely gone top 3 not 15.  So if Haskins ends up the goods, we are lucky that there wasn't full consensus on Haskins IMO otherwise no chance he would have been sitting there at 15 for us.