FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[volsmet]

Baiting the youngster into taking chances with no threat of the run while trailing by double digits. That’s going to lead to sacks & picks for many who haven’t had 20+ starts in college. Minshew took dump offs every snap when trailing to KC, and ended up with good numbers and a few tds after falling behind 37-13, and DH could have dumped it off for some better stats, but all of the value in that start was always going to be in the film study afterwards — less fir the reads than the mechanical adjustments. The TDs missed to the two TEs on the goal line are things they’ll work on, DH can be casual on his touch passes, even sinking his hips to sync his upper half, which leads to throws that are less precise & either off the back foot, with a dropped elbow, or each. 

 

Haskins is less fluid/athletic than Rodgers, so his unorthodox throws look more awkward, but the arm is similar; He can make unbelievable throws while looking like he tore his acl while his appendix ruptured — but he needs to keep working on the boring stuff, as all QBs do until they retire.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Love that guy.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

Love that guy.

 

Like you I had concerns about aspects about his game but i love his make up.  I like how he handled those questions.  I mentioned this on this thread in the summer, I saw Haskins interact with fans for a few days, 5 practices, he came off like a really cool guy.    I am not as worried as some that he can be broken psychologically from too much adversity.  He comes off like a strong minded, guy.

 

 

[Rypienskinz]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

 

 

 

 

 

[volsmet]

4 minutes ago, Rypienskinz said:

 

 

 

Thought I set you up with a lay in; hoped to see:

 

 

[SkinsFTW]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

i like Jay better than most on this thread.  But I never understood his fascination for Colt.  

 

Jay is like the kid who had parents who drank all night passed out and left lit cigarettes in the bed causing the house to burn down and on the way out of the blazing inferno this kid was able to randomly grab one toy to save from the flames.

 

Colt McCoy is that toy.

 

I mean, he's probably the only QB that this team has ever allowed him to actually choose.

[kingdaddy]

Colt has been a good soldier and paid his dues, Im on board with giving him a shot. If he looks decent maybe he hooks on somewhere else and prolongs his career. Maybe Jay is rewarding his loyalty by throwing him a bone? Not sure he's doing him a favor this week though.

[Skinsinparadise]

Keim has some good points in this article

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/39092/redskins-january-decision-to-maintain-status-quo-looks-bad-in-hindsight

Then again, any chance of Gruden saving his job probably involves Haskins. If the rookie plays -- and plays well for an extended time -- then perhaps there's a different conversation. It's a long shot for sure, but without that scenario, Gruden's departure is a "when," not an "if."

The difficult part for a coach on the hot seat is trying to develop a quarterback he's unlikely to coach beyond this season. Haskins hasn't been ignored by any means, but if you're coaching for your job, you'll play the guy who can help you Sunday -- not in 2020 and beyond.

At least, not until he becomes your last chance for survival.

At some point, this season will be about Haskins' development, which will again make for a strange turn. If Gruden is still around, he'll be the one leading Haskins' development, knowing it won't do a whole lot to help his situation.

[Llevron]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Keim has some good points in this article

 

 

What do you think? Whens the time to make the season "about" Haskins and his development? 

 

I feel like if it isnt now, its soon. But part of that is giving up......and im not sure there is a good time for a leader to give up. Very conflicted. 

[RandyHolt]

I want to see Haskins get a full week of first team reps before Jay get jettisoned.  And Jay to have a scaled back UNPREDICTABLE playbook for him.   Is that asking too much?   Clearly, it is.

 

Some will say a simple playbook is too easy to defend.  Well, it cannot be any easier than defending AP on first down, and the entire run game, CT runs on 3rd and 15 aside.  

 

Script the first 10 plays... how's that for a novel idea. Pass on first down.  Ditch Sprinkle and go 4 wide and get Sims on the field to make DCs nervous.  I know wildcat is a gimmick but other teams use it successfully.  Show a little read option. There was a glimmer of hope that Jay will cater to Haskins after trying to go hurry up, but here is the thing, Jay doesn't use hurry up so no one on offense is used to it.  Starting with himself, as its not in his repertoire.

[dballer]

13 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I want to see Haskins get a full week of first team reps before Jay get jettisoned.  And Jay to have a scaled back UNPREDICTABLE playbook for him.   Is that asking too much?   Clearly, it is.

 

Some will say a simple playbook is too easy to defend.  Well, it cannot be any easier than defending AP on first down, and the entire run game, CT runs on 3rd and 15 aside.  

 

Script the first 10 plays... how's that for a novel idea. Pass on first down.  Ditch Sprinkle and go 4 wide and get Sims on the field to make DCs nervous.  I know wildcat is a gimmick but other teams use it successfully.  Show a little read option. There was a glimmer of hope that Jay will cater to Haskins after trying to go hurry up, but here is the thing, Jay doesn't use hurry up so no one on offense is used to it. 

 

I would say a simple playbook, executed by a playmaker, can be better than a complicated playbook executed by a scrub. 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

What do you think? Whens the time to make the season "about" Haskins and his development? 

 

I feel like if it isnt now, its soon. But part of that is giving up......and im not sure there is a good time for a leader to give up. Very conflicted. 

 

According to a different article from Keim, they are developing Haskins and giving him extra work and study.  If I were Jay I'd have played it the way he has thus far.  Now, I'd let Colt play up to the bye week and then play Haskins.  For Jay its about to turn from it not being in his best interest to play Haskins to his only chance to save his job is to show Haskins' playing well.

 

6 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I want to see Haskins get a full week of first team reps for Dwayne, before Jay get jettisoned.  And Jay to have a scaled back UNPREDICTABLE playbook for him.   Is that asking too much?   Clearly, it is.

 

Some will say a simple playbook is too easy to defend.  Well, it cannot be any easy that defending AP on first down, and the entire run game, CT runs on 3rd and 15 aside.  

 

 

I wish you were at training camp with me.  😀  Even a layperson like me could see plain as day that Haskins has really good talent but is also VERY raw.  He wasn't always accurate (missing certain types of throws consistently similar to his miss TD throw on Sunday) he threw a ton of picks.  There was a reason why all the beat guys watching camp said he was the third best QB there and it wasn't even close. 

 

Yeah Craig Hoffman playing off Peppers comments about his INT said its easier for opposing defenses to hone in on a QB with a short and simple play book.  But regardless, if you go through the Haskins plays frame by frame some of which others including me posted here, he had some guys wide open.  He even had easy check downs that he ignored.  I think he was perhaps too amped up which is understandable in a rookie debut.  He missed two easy touchdown passes.  

 

This isn't to knock Haskins.  I like his makeup.  He is a rookie with one season of college play.  I am perfectly fine when the coaches say he needs more time to develop, etc.  If people want to kill Jay -- then they should really hammer O'Connell.  O'Connell has been just as loud on that point about Haskins is still developing.  O'Connell from what I read is also the dude specifically tasked with incorporating Ohio State concepts into the playbook.

 

Sheehan talking right now about what he is hearing from people he knows at the FO.  He says they are telling him Haskins is a project.  They aren't negative about his development -- he cited that he heard years ago before it all exploded that RG3 wasn't easily coachable.  He says he's hearing Haskins is very coachable but he isn't ready now.

[dballer]

12 hours ago, volsmet said:

Baiting the youngster into taking chances with no threat of the run while trailing by double digits. That’s going to lead to sacks & picks for many who haven’t had 20+ starts in college. Minshew took dump offs every snap when trailing to KC, and ended up with good numbers and a few tds after falling behind 37-13, and DH could have dumped it off for some better stats, but all of the value in that start was always going to be in the film study afterwards — less fir the reads than the mechanical adjustments. The TDs missed to the two TEs on the goal line are things they’ll work on, DH can be casual on his touch passes, even sinking his hips to sync his upper half, which leads to throws that are less precise & either off the back foot, with a dropped elbow, or each. 

 

Haskins is less fluid/athletic than Rodgers, so his unorthodox throws look more awkward, but the arm is similar; He can make unbelievable throws while looking like he tore his acl while his appendix ruptured — but he needs to keep working on the boring stuff, as all QBs do until they retire.

 

 

 

Love that guy.

 

I remember specifically one 3rd down and long, he had CT open for a check down that would not have gotten the 1st, looked at him, and went back to searching for a 1st down throw. Ended up a sack I believe. And I am fine with that. I guess it would have been nice to let CT try to break a tackle, but I do want my QB to understand the importance of getting the first rather than ending up with a 4th and 5. 

 

To do it right, the rest of the season you start Haskins and turn the scoreboard off. Have him simply work, one play at a time. Then hit the film room hard. 

[RandyHolt]

Good stuff SIP and I would have liked to be there.  His lack of accuracy doesn't really concern me, at least just yet. We all saw NcNabb throwing the ball at the feet of open WRs his entire career, but then on point to DJax deep.  Alex Smith had a ton of ugly throws in his 9 games, sure maybe avoiding tight windows, but also likely missing an open WR.

 

If Haskins was missing open guys scanning the field, that tells me Jay is giving him the full playbook. I heard Jay say that Keenum was actually injured when he got yanked in the 2nd quarter. If true, maybe I need to give Jay a pass for what I think was not preparing Haskins better for his first game. 

 

It was a good measuring stick game for him - regardless.  One thing, we have QBs missing open receivers I think in almost every game. Well, in every game except ours, when facing our lame duck defense allowing 80% completions on 3rd down.  It's too easy to point out a rookie QB missing open guys in his first game. We all know his heart was racing and he was ramped up, likely looking deep of course.  Swinging for the fences.   What about Case seeing open guys, and then grossly over throwing them. So pick your poison, some days.

 

So I want to see Jay have a more structured approach. Start with some plays that don't let Haskins have 5 reads to pour over.  Keep it simple, Skins.  Call a wheel route. And then call a screen. Call a 3 step deep loft fade on inevitable 3rd and longs, not to Quinn, to Harmon.  Call the patented Cousins roll right with guys running parallel at 3 different depths, right in front of him. Focus him on 1 side of the field, and do not call plays that require throws he struggles with.  

 

Run the same plays to the opposite side of field on the next drive.  Mix in runs of AP up the gut on every first and 10. When the D creeps up on AP, trust him with a read at the line, and audible one deep after a pump fake. You know DCs are going to stack on a rookie/AP, and that safeties are thinking pick 6 on greenhorns - work those angles. Viola, you have a game plan that lets you try and win, and develop a QB at the same time. 

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

9 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Colt has been a good soldier and paid his dues, Im on board with giving him a shot. If he looks decent maybe he hooks on somewhere else and prolongs his career. Maybe Jay is rewarding his loyalty by throwing him a bone? Not sure he's doing him a favor this week though.

Im so sick of this bull****. Jay is living his NFL QB dream shot vicariously through Colt McCoy and has been for some time now, Its the dream shot Jay Gruden never got when he was playing in the world league or arena bowl or whatever he was in. With the exception of a few games here and there Colt McCoy blows, He is a career 3rd string QB with a lifetime QB rating of 78. 

 

    If Colt really gives us the best option to win on Sunday and this is not a case of Jay Gruden living his NFL dream through the eyes of McCoy then we are in even bigger trouble then our record indicates. Imagine being a QB in the NFL and not having the skill set or the "know" to beat out the likes of #12 FOR A STARTING GIG.........

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Good stuff SIP and I would have liked to be there.  His lack of accuracy doesn't really concern me, at least just yet. We all saw NcNabb throwing the ball at the feet of open WRs his entire career, but then on point to DJax deep.

 

If Haskins was missing open guys scanning the field, that tells me Jay is giving him the full playbook. I heard Jay say that Keenum was actually injured when he got yanked in the 2nd quarter. If true, maybe I need to give Jay a pass for what I think was not preparing Haskins better for his first game. 

 

It was a good measuring stick game for him - regardless.  One thing, we have QBs missing open receivers I think in almost every game. Well, in every game except ours, when facing our lame duck defense allowing 80% completions on 3rd down.  It's too easy to point out a rookie QB missing open guys in his first game. We all know his heart was racing and he was ramped up, likely looking deep of course.  Swinging for the fences.   What about Case seeing open guys, and then grossly over throwing them. So pick your poison, some days.

 

So I want to see Jay have a more structured approach. Start with some plays that don't let Haskins have 5 reads to pour over.  Keep it simple, Skins.  

 

Sure, my point there wasn't a critique of Haskins but saying when you watch him in practice Jay-O'Connell don't seem to be on Mars with the idea that he needs time.  He looked raw.  And naturally I blame Keenum, a veteran, for missing open receivers, and it wasn't just those 2 deep balls.  And give Haskins a break for his misses.  He also ironically had a wide open receiver on a go route which I missed watching the game but saw it on coaches tape. 

 

My point on the check downs is one play he had one who also had a lot of daylight to get YAC if Haskins decided to throw to him.  Another one where a receiver was signaling Haskins that he's wide open but Haskins only looked to his right and never looked his way.  Using that play as an example, I doubt Jay had 5 reads considering Haskins only looked at one side of the field, if he looked the other way he'd have had an easy completion. 

 

They schemed up two 5 yardish easy passes in the red zone where receivers were open and Haskins missed them.  I can't really blame Jay and O'Connell for that.  Neither looked like a hard read.  One of those plays was right in his line of vision.

 

The reason why I think you got to bring O'Connell into this conversation is because I've read-heard that what you are clamoring for which is scheming something specific that Haskins should excel at right away -- that's been his specific task.  Jay's running the whole team.  Haskins is just one player.  O'Connell is the dude working with his pal, Ryan Day to incorporate plays that Haskins is comfortable with.  So if Jay is supposedly failing Haskins then O'Connell should be getting an F minus because that's his specific assignment.

 

Personally, I'd let Haskins sit a little more, regroup and try this again after the bye week.  And if Haskins struggles I got no scapegoats for it -- at least not at the moment.  

[RandyHolt]

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Sure, my point there wasn't a critique of Haskins... 

 

Good stuff.... i think we can all agree that with snaps, the game and thus the reads will slow down for him.  I bet everything was happening at a million miles an hour for him.

 

It starts with reps, and play familiarity. If he is missing wide open primary reads consistently, it points to far too many defensive reads/plays in his mind trying to be digested.

 

If I were the old ball coach, I would have called a designed run for him early in his first series. Let him get hit, get his jersey dirty.  Ok, the modern day equivalence is rubber pellets inside his uniform and rug burn on the forearms.  Get him into the game - stop overthinking - I think that would help every rookie QB relax, and also bonus points, make the DC adjust the game plan for QBs runs, of course that would not happen again.

 

Am I taking crazy pills? This stuff seems so obvious to me.

[NickyJ]

18 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

So Case had a boot on his foot this time last week. Then he 'healed' and suited up for NY. And now he has a boot on his foot. Hmmmmmm.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Good stuff.... i think we can all agree that with snaps, the game and thus the reads will slow down for him.  I bet everything was happening at a million miles an hour for him.

 

It starts with reps, and play familiarity. If he is missing wide open primary reads consistently, it points to far too many defensive reads/plays in his mind trying to be digested.

 

If I were the old ball coach, I would have called a designed run for him early in his first series. Let him get hit, get his jersey dirty.  Ok, the modern day equivalence is rubber pellets inside his uniform and rug burn on the forearms.  Get his head into the game - I think that would help every rookie QB relax, and also bonus points, make the DC adjust the game plan for QBs runs, of course that would not happen again.

 

Am I taking crazy pills? This stuff seems so obvious to me.

 

I don't think though there is anyway for us to know if they are putting too much on their plate or not.  It's possible but hard to tell IMO.  The reason why I am harping on ignoring easy check downs, or him just looking at one side of the field, or missing TD throws that look easy and right in the line of his sight -- is that it comes off to me that they are trying to make it easy for him.  Haskins for example just looking to one side of the field is a tact that is often used for rookie QBs to make processing come easier.   They also went to a heavy reliance on the run when he entered.  Then, I'd add that I read that O'Connell is specifically assigned to make things easier for Haskins -- he's pals with Ryan Day and talked about what Haskins does well or not, etc.  

 

It's hard for me to package all of that and think they just don't get it and are making things harder for Haskins.  The only comment that takes me in that direction was O'Connell is one interview said something to the effect of they are trying to build up Haskins for the long view or something like that -- I can take that comment though in multiple directions.  Jay's worked with rookie QBs before, Dalton wasn't bad for a rookie QB in year 1 and he came out of a spread system in college.  But from what I can tell the Haskins development-plays are mostly O'Connell's baby. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

@Skinsinparadise the issue is not that they are making things hard on Haskins.  The problem is they are not making things easy on him.  

 

There are a variety of things you can do offensively to simplify things for a QB.  The Shanahans did a lot of them with Griffin because he was as good at reading the field, protections and defenses as a kindergartner is at reading Homer’s Iliad.  Might get a word or two, but not much. 

 

I think at issue is Jay is trying to teach Dwayne his offense.  With all of the checks, protection checks, route combinations, etc.  and for a guy who hasn’t actually called plays like this before, that’s a lot.

 

What they should have done, and what other coaching staffs have done with rookie QBs is create an offense, including limited verbiage and reads, and drill the hell out of it. 

 

Then you do the following:

 

1. Go hurry up.  It’s the QBs best friend because the defense can’t adjust or substructure.  In hurry up, defenses tend to play 2-3 different coverages and have predictable checks which you can pick up on film.

 

2. Pass on first down.  A lot.  Because it’s the one down where your entire playbook is open to you and the defense can’t play down-distance defense. They can’t read run or pass, like they can at 2nd and 8+ after a failed first down run. 

 

3. Simplify the reads.  2 reads, if it’s not there, escape.  You could escape to throw off schedule or to run.  Don’t try and teach the QB to read out the entire play.  It’s too much. Gradually add to the reads as you see more things on tape and can drill them in practice.

 

As the QB gets more familiar with the packages, you start to add concepts and more complex plays.  Maybe 2-3 a week.  

 

fwiw, this is exactly what the Colts did with Peyton.   They basically went 2WR, 2TE, RB, hurry up, and ran about 4 concepts off of it for 2-3 years.  As Peyton learned more and saw more, the offense expanded.  They ran that zone-stretch run play and play action so many times they probably wore it out.  And only one coach really figured out a good way to combat it, Belichick. Which is why the Colt has so many problems with the Pats early in the 00’s

 

I don’t buy into any of the “sabotage” stuff at all.  I think Jay is doing what he thinks he needs to do to prepare Dwayne. I think I’m his ideal world Dwayne could run his offense at a high level and they would be successful.  

 

I just think he’s not doing it right. He thinks if Dwayne can get his concepts, he can get guys open.  Which has proven true. But Dwayne just isn’t there. 

 

It goes back to the #1 Jay issue: he can’t adapt.  He just doesn’t have it in him.

[RandyHolt]

Don't be a fan later - Dwayne Haskins

 

More and more I am starting to think our boycott of everything Redskins is going to be a disaster.

 

What sports franchise see its top players not liking their own fans actions.  This is next level Redskins dysfunction happening.

[skinzplay]

A lot of great insight here from Keim; really worth a listen.

 

https://espnrichmond.com/10651/10-1-john-keim-interview/

 

[SkinsFTW]

Don't be a fan later - Dwayne Haskins

 

 

Waah!!!

 

Maybe Dan can cheer him up on Bowling Night.

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

Im so sick of this bull****. Jay is living his NFL QB dream shot vicariously through Colt McCoy and has been for some time now, Its the dream shot Jay Gruden never got when he was playing in the world league or arena bowl or whatever he was in. With the exception of a few games here and there Colt McCoy blows, He is a career 3rd string QB with a lifetime QB rating of 78. 

 

    If Colt really gives us the best option to win on Sunday and this is not a case of Jay Gruden living his NFL dream through the eyes of McCoy then we are in even bigger trouble then our record indicates. Imagine being a QB in the NFL and not having the skill set or the "know" to beat out the likes of #12 FOR A STARTING GIG.........

Love your name....Jacoby not being in the HOF while Monk and Grimm are is criminal. As for Colt, I believe this is Jay's way of saying i'm going with the guy who stuck by me as the ship sinks to the bottom. I do believe Jay wanted Colt to be the started from day one this season...I wonder if Colt is even fully healthy? 

[Voice_of_Reason]

For some reason the “don’t be a fan later” thing doesn’t bother me.  I guess I’m old enough at this point I just expect this from this generation of social media folks.  

 

Go hit McClaurin on a bomb and I don’t care.  

[volsmet]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Keim has some good points in this article

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/39092/redskins-january-decision-to-maintain-status-quo-looks-bad-in-hindsight

Then again, any chance of Gruden saving his job probably involves Haskins. If the rookie plays -- and plays well for an extended time -- then perhaps there's a different conversation. It's a long shot for sure, but without that scenario, Gruden's departure is a "when," not an "if."

 

 

Things that should have been clear in August for 500, Alex.

 

Brilliant, forward thinking, fellow. The beautiful minds of the Washington Redskins media never fail to inspire; Keim is our very own Arthur Spooner.

 

 

 

On 9/22/2019 at 8:54 PM, volsmet said:

 

Jay probably keeps his job if he’s the HC & Haskins looks good... so it may come down to how much he actually wants to stay; the earlier we see DH, the more invested he is in the organization.

 

 

 

On 9/9/2019 at 4:17 PM, volsmet said:

I think Jay will be asked back if Haskins plays well under his offensive staff to end the season. Jay may be done with this nonsense though. 

 

On 8/28/2019 at 4:54 PM, volsmet said:

Jay won’t get fired if DH is playing well by years end.