FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[volsmet]

1 hour ago, CowboyKillerz said:

Except improvising with his legs was something he did WELL on Sunday...

 

Issues with his fundamentals, & experience with the speed of the game, led him to a scramble that most ESers enjoyed immensely, but his coaches will be frustrated by. The gritty plays fans love, are often only made because of a failure to recognize what the play presented.

 

Some ESers actually criticized Vernon Davis for the fact that DH didn’t get into the end zone - on his scramble to the 1 - but that scramble, lauded here, was a display of why he shouldn’t be in, rather than a display of his attributes.

 

[CowboyKillerz]

I absolutely agree... And to top it off dove head first- a hold your breath moment for sure.

It wasnt nessicary- agreed. But its not like he cant. And that wsnt the only play I was referencing.

To your point the back foot throws, the hop throws... Are something we need much less of

[volsmet]

2 minutes ago, CowboyKillerz said:

I absolutely agree... And to top it off dove head first- a hold your breath moment for sure.

It wasnt nessicary- agreed. But its not like he cant. And that wsnt the only play I was referencing.

To your point the back foot throws, the hop throws... Are something we need much less of

 

He has a tendency to load/provide torque more like a tennis player than a baseball player when he’s out of rhythm. He has a habit of creating momentum from his upper half when he’s uncomfortable.

 

[TSO]

13 minutes ago, CowboyKillerz said:

 

"He’s not going to be making many plays with his legs or improvising like the other QBs you listed. That was NEVER his game"

 

Except for when he did? And did it well... Was the point. He moved well in the pocket, made stuff happen with his legs.. Never said lets run read option from here on out. 

 

Then you weren’t following along correctly and weren’t reading it in its context. I was specifically replying to RandyHolt who mentioned QBs like Cam, Kaep, Wilson, and RG3. 
 

Who was I talking to when I said “like the other QBs you listed”? Did you even bother to figure it out? 
 

Is Haskins like them in any way? Am I wrong for separating his skill set from theirs? Tell me how, please. 
 

Moving in the pocket well has nothing to do with what I was saying. Nor is making plays on the minor occasion with his legs. You’re just arguing for the sake of it. 
 

13 minutes ago, CowboyKillerz said:

 

Give me a break... The goal line? EVERYTHING IS QUICK! Its obvipusly a condensed field and easier to defend.. And timing (ya know the stuff you get when taking reps?) Is key. He nearly had the fade.. Not the best throw, or the right throw.. But if Sprinkle were any good catching TE not named sprinkle its 6.

 

Like I said.. If you watch the tape and conclude that the play designs were similar to NYG and Pitts... Then I do believe we having nothing more to talk about?

I don’t care about NYG and Pitts nor did I ever bring them up. Rudolph isn’t even a rookie, first off. Secondly, what does it have to do with what I was arguing about? My point was that they called plays he excelled at in college and adjusted for him. Every concept you mentioned they had within the concepts they called for him. I gave you multiple examples and you want to either ignore it or respond with something that has nothing to do with anything. 
 

The goal line quick out wasn’t the only one called, so you can go ahead and give ME a break. 
 

So, if I’m understanding you here... the only way you would’ve been satisfied was if they called exactly what the Giants or Pittsburgh called for their respective QBs? I mean... somehow I doubt if they did exactly that you’d be able to recognize it but, yeah, I guess we have nothing to talk about. Only they know how to do it right and there’s no other possibility or method. 

[CjSuAvE22]

I honestly dont see Haskins working out none of “Dans Picks”

do....ppl will say hes raw needs time to grow etc but im sorry a first round pick thats barely able to be the back up...if mccoy was healthy i doubt haskins is even active...and yeah some of you will say mccoys jays guy etc... But  Jay Gruden is more informed in terms of football knowledge then snyder or anyone on this forum and its pretty clear gruden never even wanted haskins...huge red flag imo

[CowboyKillerz]

25 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

He has a tendency to load/provide torque more like a tennis player than a baseball player when he’s out of rhythm. He has a habit of creating momentum from his upper half when he’s uncomfortable.

 

 

Trust me... I see this too, and understand the physics more then a little being a former club pro teaching hpw to swing a golf club woth the entire body starting from the ground up. Entirely different action but nearly identical conceptually

[volsmet]

4 minutes ago, CowboyKillerz said:

 

Trust me... I see this too, and understand the physics more then a little being a former club pro teaching hpw to swing a golf club woth the entire body starting from the ground up. Entirely different action but nearly identical conceptually

 

I do trust you. You should trust @thesubmittedone when he’s discussing concepts. Most terminology is wasted on a forum, not because it’s too complicated, but because it’s in a different language, one TSO speaks fluently, evidently; Your discussion should have been an illuminating one for this community, it’s rare to find a place with people willing to discuss scheme/concepts ... the “?” is our greatest ally, not a weakness. I appreciate that you are willing to put yourself out there, I appreciate your knowledge,

but we’re rarely encountered by anyone who is willing to take the time to tell us what we missed ... TSO was willing, and able, to discuss things with you that benefit the entire community but you closed up & saw it as an attack of, rather than a complement to, all you already know. 

 

I enjoy your posts/thoughts and especially ...your screen name.

 

 

[CowboyKillerz]

30 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

Then you weren’t following along correctly and weren’t reading it in its context. I was specifically replying to RandyHolt who mentioned QBs like Cam, Kaep, Wilson, and RG3. 
 

Who was I talking to when I said “like the other QBs you listed”? Did you even bother to figure it out? 
 

Is Haskins like them in any way? Am I wrong for separating his skill set from theirs? Tell me how, please. 
 

Moving in the pocket well has nothing to do with what I was saying. Nor is making plays on the minor occasion with his legs. You’re just arguing for the sake of it. 
 

I don’t care about NYG and Pitts nor did I ever bring them up. Rudolph isn’t even a rookie, first off. Secondly, what does it have to do with what I was arguing about? My point was that they called plays he excelled at in college and adjusted for him. Every concept you mentioned they had within the concepts they called for him. I gave you multiple examples and you want to either ignore it or respond with something that has nothing to do with anything. 
 

The goal line quick out wasn’t the only one called, so you can go ahead and give ME a break. 
 

So, if I’m understanding you here... the only way you would’ve been satisfied was if they called exactly what the Giants or Pittsburgh called for their respective QBs? I mean... somehow I doubt if they did exactly that you’d be able to recognize it but, yeah, I guess we have nothing to talk about. Only they know how to do it right and there’s no other possibility or method. 

Just go ahead and take an L on the first statement boss.. Its pointless to try to save it. Yes I saw who you replied to and its context. Then you made a blanket statement that was inherently wrong. Next time maybe say he isnt gping to be a dual threat like said qbs- or something that prohects your intent onto the interwebs better.

 

Do you read every line before ypu reply to someone or nitpick TF out of it and conjure what appeals to your qualms?

 

Where did i say they didnt run any boots? Or quick outs? Smmfh

 

Bro, can we agree DH had success on the first drive?

Cool. 

 

So a play design similar to Ohip st was used.. Cool, many plays are very similar. Was it the play to call to get ypur rook into a rhythm?

 

Can most not agree the kid has little experience and yes needs some training wheels? Is a "project"?

 

Then why is it so far fetched to want your HC to provide an easy script that gets the ball out quick? Its not just NYG and Pitt its a common practice man... Not sure what your gripe is, other then just wanting to gripe.

 

You dont know me from Joe nor my eye so take it easy with the tongue in cheek jabs. I know football plenty. Ive listed many reasons for my distaste and ypu seem stuck on defending the play calling.

 

From a previous JG defender I cant agree. Ya people were open- on the other side of the field DH had to scramble to. AND feeding AP?? Whyd that stop? First play of DHs career was ripped off for 9 yards!

 

Get real, no one said "call the same plays as NYG ftw!". Its the CONCEPT. Feel like an echo- hurt oline, no reps, didnt start the game over hurt TO machine, injuries out the azz, down 14, no reps... Like how tf can you defend not making him a game manager and getting the ball out quick af? Yes i want many tosses behind the line... And others to step up not the "project" qb to have to carry the team.

 

If you want to keep goin round man... Whatever... I'll be your huckleberry

 

4 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

I do trust you. You should trust @thesubmittedone when he’s discussing concepts. Most terminology is wasted on a forum, not because it’s too complicated, but because it’s in a different language, one TSO speaks fluently, evidently; Your discussion should have been an illuminating one for this community, it’s rare to find a place with people willing to discuss scheme/concepts ... the “?” is our greatest ally, not a weakness. I appreciate that you are willing to put yourself out there, I appreciate your knowledge,

but we’re rarely encountered by anyone who is willing to take the time to tell us what we missed ... TSO was willing, and able, to discuss things with you that benefit the entire community but you closed up & saw it as an attack of, rather than a complement to, all you already know. 

 

I enjoy your posts/thoughts and especially ...your screen name.

 

 

 

Cheers  brother... I merely matched the tone. If he is a qb whisperer cool.. Mad props! Very possible i misread the tone directed at me- interwebs do that. 

 

In actuality I don't think we even disagree on much; save the coach not having his backup game ready with reps- who clearly shouldve been named the starter when Case showed up in a boot.

[TSO]

37 minutes ago, CowboyKillerz said:

If you want to keep goin round man... Whatever... I'll be your huckleberry

Nah, man, I think it’s been clear where this was going from the start. I should’ve known better. 

[desertbeagle85]

1 hour ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

I honestly dont see Haskins working out none of “Dans Picks”

do....ppl will say hes raw needs time to grow etc but im sorry a first round pick thats barely able to be the back up...if mccoy was healthy i doubt haskins is even active...and yeah some of you will say mccoys jays guy etc... But  Jay Gruden is more informed in terms of football knowledge then snyder or anyone on this forum and its pretty clear gruden never even wanted haskins...huge red flag imo

 

Haskins was rated a 1st rd pick no matter what anyone says in here. When the Skins drafted him. Everyone was saying they made the right move by sitting there waiting and getting there franchise QB. Gruden of course doesn't want a QB there. Why? because he knows that he has to win now. A 1st rd rookie QB isn't expected to win now. Murray isn't winning and Jones will lose more than he wins this year. The Giants/Cards organizations and fan base understand this, because they're rebuilding. The Skins were trying to get there franchise QB and win at the same time. Well it's not happening and Gruden is probably right. The problem isn't the QB position. Case is good enough to win with a decent team around him. Here's the problem.

 

1. The offensive line is horrible. The left side of the line that was suppose to be the weak side and seems to be our strong side.
2. .We lost Guice and a 34 year old was the backup plan. Yes Peterson was a monster in his prime and could still be good behind a good line. Skins don't have a good line. 
3. We don't have a real starting TE. 
4. .Our best WR is a rookie. If that doesn't say something I don't know what will. I love Mclaurin, but come on our number 1 guy is a rookie. 
5. The Skins defense is horrible 

 

So in other words it doesn't matter what QB the Skins start they will fail. The vets aren't good enough and the rookie isn't ready for this turd show. This team is basically doomed. The only thing to do is start Haskins. The problem is the Skins most likely will ruin him if they do. He has no help on offense and a coach that doesn't want him. 

 

As for what you said about Gruden knowing more than Snyder or anyone in these forums. I agree he probably does, but that doesn't mean he's good at his job. The guy has had 5 years and has shown nothing. His play calling and game planning seems below average compared to 75% of the people he coaches against. This is his 1st HC job and probably his last. I understand that Snyder is the main problem, but Gruden seems like a lost puppy out there most of the time. Only thing to do is clean house. Snyder won't sell and I doubt he's smart enough to fire Bruce. With that being said that's our only hope. We need a GM and coach in here to back Haskins. On top of building a team around him. As for the defense. I personally don't thing it is lack of talent that is holding them back. It's again lack of coaching. We need a real DC in there and this is another reason why Gruden must go. 

[volsmet]

2 hours ago, CowboyKillerz said:

Cheers  brother... I merely matched the tone. If he is a qb whisperer cool.. Mad props! Very possible i misread the tone directed at me- interwebs do that. 

 

In actuality I don't think we even disagree on much; save the coach not having his backup game ready with reps- who clearly shouldve been named the starter when Case showed up in a boot.

 

He’s not suggesting he’s a whisperer, just pointing out things you & others have said were missing from the game plan. We all receive a bit of tone based on what we’re feeling, which influences our perception of what’s been said ... and, on a forum, we frequently respond after a multitude of misrepresentations, perceived or otherwise, that have been shared... - - that, often times lends our language to a community of people even when our primary reason for responding is to address one person.

 

To unramble myself, @thesubmittedone doesn’t get into many discussion here because he understands it to be futile, but he respected your contribution enough to address thoroughly. Being dismissed can feel disrespectful — but someone, with knowledge to spare, putting their understanding on the forum to you directly, is a compliment. If TSO felt your presence or thoughts worthless, you’d never know it ... but he didn’t dismiss you, he went into detail about what some have missed. Agreement isn’t respect, honesty is. Urban, Dan Mullen & Ryan Day all worked under my uncle, and I want to read more of TOS’s posts... I know that he, you, and I ...all have plenty to learn, and if we love the game/conversation enough, plenty to share. The next great thought/idea/transition always comes from challenge ... I’m glad I got to read the back & forth. 

 

Httr

 

1 hour ago, desertbeagle85 said:

*

(Edited because of length)

 

Great post, Beagle.

 

[dballer]

11 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

The difference for Haskins is the speed of the NFL and the way defenses disguise their coverages and/or change them post play. It's going to take time for him to adjust to that. They can call whatever he's good at, go uptempo or no huddle, whatever, and it won't matter. He's going to get tricked. 

 

This is something that people will need to understand if they are in the "play Haskins now" camp (like me). It will be ugly at times. Hopefully, it will also look good at times. And hopefully as the year progresses, the ugly will begin diminish and the good will be more frequent. Hopefully. But without a doubt it will be ugly at times. Guess what happens when you roll out a simpler playbook? The defense has less to worry about...You can try to disguise it, but the defense will be quicker to diagnose. Which means Haskins needs to be even quicker. Not to mention the fact that WE CAN NOT RUN THE DAMN BALL. This thing ain't going to be pretty to start with. 

 

[KDawg]

11 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

 

I promise these people have no idea. Know why? Because those concepts were what was called for Haskins in the Giants' game. Mesh, Y-Cross, Arrow or Spot, Spacing concepts, etc... 

 

I didn't even realize they ran the Philly concept, which is another one Haskins ran well in college, until you posted it above. So add that to the list.  

 

You know what Haskins didn't really run in college? Option routes, which is a favorite of Gruden's. I might be wrong because it's hard to tell at times what is an option route versus not, but I didn't see a single one of those called against the Giants. I can say for sure that he wasn't looking at any player waiting for him to make a decision on his option route.  

 

So they are actually calling what Haskins did well in college and they are actually giving him a smaller package of plays. Anyone who knows just even a little bit of what they're looking at could see it. 

 

The difference for Haskins is the speed of the NFL and the way defenses disguise their coverages and/or change them post play. It's going to take time for him to adjust to that. They can call whatever he's good at, go uptempo or no huddle, whatever, and it won't matter. He's going to get tricked. 

 

 

This. 1000x.

 

The Redskins completely catered to Haskins strengths against the Giants. Haskins (his fault or otherwise) was largely unprepared to come into the game and deliver on the concepts. I still think a lot of that rides on his mechanics - a tendency to not set his feet, below average footwork in the pocket, upper body throws. But they asked him to hit the short/intermediate stuff and he was... mediocre at best in doing it. Part of that, in my opinion, worries me. Generally speaking, raw or otherwise, a guy who is going to be a guy can come in and give you something to build off of. Show you flashes of brilliance. I didn't see that from Haskins. Is it condemning? I don't believe so. His career certainly isn't over, nor should it be judged from a single relief outing. But you'd like to see more there. 

 

Meshes with a triangle read are a great way to get a green QBs feet wet with the NFL. A deep, intermediate and shallow concept to the same side of the field simplifies the quarterback's read to one side of the field. Takes a lot of pressure off of the QB to read complicated hybrid NFL coverage schemes. I believe (and again, I have found zero motivation to go back and watch the film, so this could be wrong) based on first time/live viewing, that they were trying to get a few triangle read concepts, specifically the mesh, going with him. And he was just having trouble delivering. 

 

That triangle takes a lot of the Haskins learning curve away as it pertains to reading coverages, though. Identifying man/zone to the playside and any hot receivers and then throw the ball to the vacancy. 

 

If Haskins is the guy this week (Gibbs help him) we need to see improvement in these areas. I don't care who the defense is. There needs to be some building blocks to continue to construct the lego set. I don't care what his stat line is. I want to see him stand in the pocket, progress through his reads and deliver strikes to the correct placement, or at least to a spot that can be reasoned. 

 

I love the confidence that Haskins has off the field. He says and does all the right things. The anti-RG3. Now I (personally, obviously) want to see that carryover to the field. There are a lot of guys who say and do awesome **** off the field, but until they deliver on the field their off-the-field persona means jack and ****.

 

excellent post, TSO.

[KDawg]

5 hours ago, desertbeagle85 said:

 

Haskins was rated a 1st rd pick no matter what anyone says in here. When the Skins drafted him. Everyone was saying they made the right move by sitting there waiting and getting there franchise QB. Gruden of course doesn't want a QB there. Why? because he knows that he has to win now. A 1st rd rookie QB isn't expected to win now. Murray isn't winning and Jones will lose more than he wins this year. The Giants/Cards organizations and fan base understand this, because they're rebuilding. The Skins were trying to get there franchise QB and win at the same time. Well it's not happening and Gruden is probably right. The problem isn't the QB position. Case is good enough to win with a decent team around him. Here's the problem.

 

1. The offensive line is horrible. The left side of the line that was suppose to be the weak side and seems to be our strong side.
2. .We lost Guice and a 34 year old was the backup plan. Yes Peterson was a monster in his prime and could still be good behind a good line. Skins don't have a good line. 
3. We don't have a real starting TE. 
4. .Our best WR is a rookie. If that doesn't say something I don't know what will. I love Mclaurin, but come on our number 1 guy is a rookie. 
5. The Skins defense is horrible 

 

So in other words it doesn't matter what QB the Skins start they will fail. The vets aren't good enough and the rookie isn't ready for this turd show. This team is basically doomed. The only thing to do is start Haskins. The problem is the Skins most likely will ruin him if they do. He has no help on offense and a coach that doesn't want him. 

 

As for what you said about Gruden knowing more than Snyder or anyone in these forums. I agree he probably does, but that doesn't mean he's good at his job. The guy has had 5 years and has shown nothing. His play calling and game planning seems below average compared to 75% of the people he coaches against. This is his 1st HC job and probably his last. I understand that Snyder is the main problem, but Gruden seems like a lost puppy out there most of the time. Only thing to do is clean house. Snyder won't sell and I doubt he's smart enough to fire Bruce. With that being said that's our only hope. We need a GM and coach in here to back Haskins. On top of building a team around him. As for the defense. I personally don't thing it is lack of talent that is holding them back. It's again lack of coaching. We need a real DC in there and this is another reason why Gruden must go. 

 

A couple nitpicks here:

 

Our backup plan at RB being a 34 year old doesn't have much to do with anything in my opinion. The backup plan at running back being a guy that was saddled on the head coach, does, however. Forget that it's Adrian Peterson. When the head coach is told he has to keep a guy, that undermines him and ****s up the chemistry of a football team. That's not an excuse for Jay. That's not an indictment on Peterson. But if the head coach doesn't want Peterson because he's not the type of back the head coach wants and he's told he HAS to keep him you put yourself in an awful position. 

 

To Gruden's end, he needed to find a way to adapt. I still wish he would have modified his system to account for Guice's style, Peterson's style and Thompson's style, but to be honest that's asking a lot out of a head coach when you're only using one of them at a time (don't get me started on how much I'd like to see Thompson and another back in the game at the same time). 

 

This leads me to my second nitpick:

 

The problem isn't necessarily that the offense line stinks (that's *A* problem), the running back situation (*A* problem), reliance on injury prone players on both sides of the ball (*A* problem), the defense (*A* problem*), Manusky (*A* problem), Gruden (*A* problem), **** it isn't even Allen (*A* problem) all by himself.

 

It's the ****ty organizational structure that allows those problems to exist to begin with. I think you started to get to that at the end of your post... But while I agree with most of what you said (And i reallllllly do), those are symptoms of the overall pathological issue. Our organizational structure is built on a fault line.

 

The AP situation, the Trent Williams situation and now Haskins, a developmental guy who is put in an awful situation with a likely lame duck HC who, if the past is any indicator, a new HC will be saddled with regardless of their needs/wants. It's all the signs of a structure that is set to fail from the start.

 

Sorry. I didn't mean to go off-tangent. Or seem overly critical of your post. I actually really enjoyed your above post. This organization just truly baffles me and leads me to go in this direction lately!

 

 

[LD0506]

Ok, this. This is why I haunt this board, for those times when a conversation goes on long enough that the kids get bored and wander off and the genuine mavens get space to discuss the deeper levels of an issue.

 

For all my snarky driveby-ing elsewhere, I really do just sit and listen and try to "get" what y'all are trying to get across.

 

Mucho appreciado

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

Issues with his fundamentals, & experience with the speed of the game, led him to a scramble that most ESers enjoyed immensely, but his coaches will be frustrated by.

 

Here is a boot, a receiver wide open in the end zone (you don't see him until the last frame), Haskins with a back foot lifting on release, didn't reset his feet or square his shoulders towards the open receiver and and threw it wildly out of bounds.  Again I am not knocking Haskins, he's a rookie who is learning.  But the biggest thing that struck me watching in camp is that his issues that he needs to work out go beyond learning the playbook.  He stills needs to work on accuracy-fundamentals.  He can throw some beauty throws.  But the only throws I saw him making consistently were ones in between the numbers -- he was on and off with just about any type of out route including short ones in the flat.   You can see the football faintly in the last frame in the right corner way out of bounds. 

 

[KDawg]

The fact that he starts his throw with his shoulders/feet parallel to the line of scrimmage on a boot pass is a rough sign. Then the legit jump throw is concerning. Watch Rodgers on playaction for those reading along...

 

 

Around 40 seconds in there's a good boot pass example. Look at Rodgers shoulders.

 

This is what a lot of said when we drafted him/pre-draft when we talked about footwork.

 

I'm not sure he's shown any improvement in that area.

 

Again, to reiterate a point: I'm not saying this is the end of his career. But it's a giant red flag that needs to be corrected or we're definitely going to need to be in the market for a quarterback next year.

[Skinsinparadise]

WP today.  it's a good summary.  Obviously I got no idea what happened.  but its rare for EVERY beat reporter and just about every national to have their sources converge on more or less the same narrative.  So I am supposing there is at least a decent shot its true.   I would be concerned if Dan was impatient about it.   But he doesn't seem to be. 

 

 

 

...Complicating matters is the lingering question, dating back to draft day, of whether Redskins Coach Jay Gruden viewed Haskins as the right choice for the team. Before Haskins was selected, ESPN reported that Washington’s coaching staff preferred a more experienced college player — like Duke’s Daniel Jones, who was selected sixth overall by the New York Giants — only to be overruled by owner Daniel Snyder.

 

A person with knowledge of Gruden’s thinking has confirmed that the head coach did not want Haskins, and while Haskins has publicly downplayed any suggestion that he wasn’t Gruden’s choice, a person close to the rookie quarterback said that Haskins has sensed that to be the case.

 

Still, they move forward — with Gruden and his staff teaching Haskins everything they know and Haskins coming to each quarterback meeting prepared, asking all the right questions — treading carefully through a season that has thudded to an 0-4 start.

 

“I’ve got to do what’s best for him,” Gruden said this week, although unspoken was the fact that Gruden, whose job is at risk during his sixth season as the team’s head coach, also has a pressing need to win games now to save his job — something that doesn’t fit neatly with developing a rookie quarterback who hasn’t yet shown he’s ready to play.

 

....Despite the fact that Haskins wasn’t Gruden’s first choice, the Redskins coaches were excited about their rookie quarterback. They acknowledged that he was significantly behind veterans McCoy and Keenum in training camp, often working with the third and fourth teams, but expressed optimism that he would eventually come along.

“He’s got a really bright future,” offensive coordinator Kevin O’Connell said not long before the start of the season.

 

Still, the coaches were quick to say that they were essentially teaching Haskins how to play quarterback in the NFL, a process made even more challenging because of Haskins’s inexperience. Had McCoy not suffered a setback to his leg injury, he likely would have been the team’s starter and Keenum its backup, making Gruden’s decision on Haskins simple: He would be the team’s third quarterback. Instead, McCoy was out for the next eight weeks, making Keenum the starter and forcing Haskins into backup duty.

 

...Snyder stormed out of New Jersey’s MetLife Stadium following the Redskins’ loss to the Giants and has not given a public indication about how Haskins is being used, though one person with knowledge of the situation said after the draft that Snyder was willing to let the coaches be patient with Haskins, realizing that Haskins needed time to grow.

[RandyHolt]

I have long wanted to know what is at the root of Jay's passing offense, the concepts or patterns themselves.  Yet it seems there is no data available.  I presume it requires all 22 but if anyone is logging all that data, I sure wish they would share it. 

 

TSO was kind enough to post that Jay called Mesh, Y-Cross, Arrow Spot, etc for Haskins. So we have a peak into what was selected for Haskins.  It's implied that Jay does not normally call those, otherwise Jay was largely running his normal offense which I have read is quite complex. Sure, 20 drops is a tiny sample size and am thus now interested to learn, what does Jay normally call. His 5 most popular concepts/routes in order over his 5 years. Or, for Case if that is easier. TSO already chimed in with Option Routes, and that none were called. Thanks in advance.

 

Kids watching the game sure won't notice a difference in a small sample (if ever), so I hope the mavens won't hold that against them.

[dballer]

29 minutes ago, KDawg said:

The fact that he starts his throw with his shoulders/feet parallel to the line of scrimmage on a boot pass is a rough sign. Then the legit jump throw is concerning. Watch Rodgers on playaction for those reading along...

 

 

Around 40 seconds in there's a good boot pass example. Look at Rodgers shoulders.

 

This is what a lot of said when we drafted him/pre-draft when we talked about footwork.

 

I'm not sure he's shown any improvement in that area.

 

Again, to reiterate a point: I'm not saying this is the end of his career. But it's a giant red flag that needs to be corrected or we're definitely going to need to be in the market for a quarterback next year.

 

I went back to find the boot he threw the TD to Sims Jr in preseason...

 

 

This looked slightly better...but really it wasn't an accurate throw. Sims Jr was wide open and had to make a diving catch.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Over time on ES, I've learned this is pretty much how it goes when things don't work...

 

Fans who don't like the coach/playcaller, but like the QB....it's all the coach's fault for not playing to the QB's strengths, preparing them, etc.

 

Fans who don't like the QB, but do like the coach/playcaller....the QB just sucks.

 

 

[KDawg]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Over time on ES, I've learned this is pretty much how it goes when things don't work...

 

Fans who don't like the coach/playcaller, but like the QB....it's all the coach's fault for not playing to the QB's strengths, preparing them, etc.

 

Fans who don't like the QB, but do like the coach/playcaller....the QB just sucks.

 

 

 

Where have you seen either of these things in the last two pages?

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I have long wanted to know what is at the root of Jay's passing offense, the concepts or patterns themselves.  Yet it seems there is no data available.  I presume all 22 but if anyone is logging all that data, I sure wish they would share it. 

 

TSO was kind enough to post that Jay called Mesh, Y-Cross, Arrow Spot, etc for Haskins. So we have a peak into what was catering for Haskins.  That implies Jay does not normally call those. Sure, 20 drops is a  tiny sample size and am thus now interested to learn, what does Jay normally call. His 5 most popular concepts/routes over his 5 years.

 

Kids watching the game sure won't notice a difference in a small sample size, so I hope the mavens won't hold that against them.

 

Mark Bullock did a summary like that once but I don't recall it.   I've never really tried to study passing concepts (though I should 😀) much but some are hard to miss especially if you watch Jay's coaching shows which I do.  Part of the reason why I am not among the crowd that Jay is just flailing and doesn't know what the heck he's doing is based on watching that show. 

 

It's a fun watch at least for me because Cooley sometimes challenges Jay and says what if this or that happened and Jay always has a ready answer for it and will even diagram it on the fly.  It became obvious at least to me that although Jay has his faults as a coach (like most do) I get why so many complement him (including Belichick this week) for play design. 

 

I recall the Philly concept that I posted on this thread was an O'Connell introduction (according to what Bullock found out, I presume when he worked at at WP).  He said that O'Connell took it from his time working with Chip Kelly.

 

I know Jay loves triangle type reads like the spot.  He talks about it on his coaches show with Cooley.  He will sometimes draw the triangle on screen showing the play.  He gets really excited when the triangle works out as symmetrically as possible. 

 

He's talked on his show plenty about multiple variations of 4 verticals. 

 

I recall he has a play or a concept of a play called dusty in the red zone where a receiver runs a corner out into the end zone, hoping to occupy the safety and a CB while a receiver or sometimes the RB runs an underneath route right in front of it (which I believe he called dusty) and sometimes that underneath route is a delayed route.  The idea is for the underneath receiver to be able to catch the ball with daylight and then take it into the end zone with a quick pass.  He likes to use Thompson a bit on it. 

 

He's talked multiple times about attacking cover 2 shell -- with high-low reads targeting whichever safety of the two is playing deepest 

 

Lots of choice routes from the slot receiver or Jordan when he plays like the Patriots like to do

 

Haskins thrived with the mesh concept at Ohio State -- two receivers doing shallow crosses coming from opposite directions and then meshing in the middle where the idea in part is to get the defenders to sort of get washed into each other.    In camp too, the shallow cross, drags in between the numbers is where Haskins to me looked the most accurate. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Where have you seen either of these things in the last two pages?

A. You cannot be serious. 

B. Why so specific to the last 2 pages? Just odd.

 

I thought it was rather clear that the entire reason for TSO making his original post on the matter is because of the false narratives about Jay 'sabotaging' Haskins, not calling plays to his strengths, being unwilling to make changes for him, etc.  Many of those types of statements were being made by folks who don't even understand what they are looking at.  They are just predisposed to making it the coach's fault.

 

 

[RandyHolt]

29 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Mark Bullock did a summary like that once but I don't recall it...

 

Fantastic post. Thanks for sharing.

 

At the core of Jay's clear and obvious glaring talent, are the concepts you shared. It's atop his resume, but seems almost a mystery to me and likely many fans. I want to learn more and cannot be the only one. As the season wastes away, its going to be all about Haskins development, and these concepts are at the core of his development, mechanics aside.  Edit: and um... coaching instability.

 

Jay's Tendencies

4 Verticals

Philly Concept (via KOC)

Spot/Triangle Reads

High/Low (vs Cover2)

Mesh (Haskins college strength)

Shallow Cross

Drags

 

Jay's Tendencies with Haskins

Mesh

Y-Cross

Arrow

Spot

Spacing concepts