FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[SoCalSkins]

5 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Why are you putting this all on Haskins?  How are you supposed to run vertical concepts when you can't get blitzes picked up?  When you can't even get proper depth on a vertical set from your edge protectors to create a pocket to step up into?  When your coach won't even make standard zone beater calls appropriate to the down and distance and situation?  When you can't count on any of your receivers to go up and make a play on the ball in traffic for you, and certainly not your TEs?  You can't even count on them to stay on time and run the right routes for you.   When only one of your receivers can walk up to the line and beat a press?  When you can't even count on your soft ass receiver to fall forward and get an easy first down?  When you can't even count on your RB to come up and give you a damn push on a goal line QB sneak.

 

Every single member of the offense is currently learning on the job, including the coordinator.  They're inexperienced and it shows.  They all need to grow and get better, but if anyone deserves to have this crappy product laid at their feet, it's the FO and coaching staff.  The personnel is not good enough and it was a bad idea to veer so inexperienced to where you can't even install a real offense.  This was intentional.  And the coaching staff isn't doing enough to get the team ready to play and they're not competing hard enough to win during the games themselves.

You can only test your argument by benching Haskins and seeing if the alternative has the same result. If you’re so adamant you’re correct you should welcome it. Why the resistance and fear? If we aren’t winning games anyway as you say why not sit him for 3 weeks to quiet everyone and make them miss his superb skills. 

[BleedBNG]

I would have given him a 7 (some overthrown passes) after todays game, but his big loss of yardage near the end zone brings it down to a 6. I still think he deserves to start again next week.

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

It isn't all on Haskins and I agree the talent just isn't there. I don't put too much blame on the coaches. This is a rebuilding/evaluation year so we're going in super young and seeing who fits so I don't really mind it at all. It does suck though that we could probably screw around and win the division with a 7-9 type record with a QB like Alex Smith but in the long run its better to keep bottoming out this year.

 

Nah man, this offense is bad.  A fully healthy and vintage Alex would be struggling with this group too.  He wouldn't have to hear all this **** from the fanbase though.

 

I think the FO ****ed the dog this offseason, and I think it was the result of not having a real GM.  I think the previous regime left a bare cupboard and a massive albatross in the Alex Smith contract.  I'm not sold on our FO structure and don't think we've done enough franchise building to start improving yet.  What's worse, there is a worrisome chance that the NFL will take some draft picks from us, that the cap is going to tank, and/or that Rivera will have to step down from coaching.  So bottoming out this season might not really help us much.

[skinbuck]

7 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Why are you putting this all on Haskins?  How are you supposed to run vertical concepts when you can't get blitzes picked up?  When you can't even get proper depth on a vertical set from your edge protectors to create a pocket to step up into?  When your coach won't even make standard zone beater calls appropriate to the down and distance and situation?  When you can't count on any of your receivers to go up and make a play on the ball in traffic for you, and certainly not your TEs?  You can't even count on them to stay on time and run the right routes for you.   When only one of your receivers can walk up to the line and beat a press?  When you can't even count on your soft ass receiver to fall forward and get an easy first down?  When you can't even count on your RB to come up and give you a damn push on a goal line QB sneak.

 

Every single member of the offense is currently learning on the job, including the coordinator.  They're inexperienced and it shows.  They all need to grow and get better, but if anyone deserves to have this crappy product laid at their feet, it's the FO and coaching staff.  The personnel is not good enough and it was a bad idea to veer so inexperienced to where you can't even install a real offense.  This was intentional.  And the coaching staff isn't doing enough to get the team ready to play and they're not competing hard enough to win during the games themselves.

Agree on all this..I just think this situation has gotten to the point where, due to a conglomerate of facts, Haskins is likely on his way out. He got dealt a terrible hand, had his own developmental and maturity issues that could’ve been addressed under a different dynamic, and now here we are. He’s now officially on yank watch..

 

it’d take a miracle for him to turn this around, and this coming from one of his biggest well-wishers

[KDawg]

So the fan base talking “bad” about Haskins is bad, but the fan base talking bad about the new FO and structure is okay.

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

5 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Nah man, this offense is bad.  A fully healthy and vintage Alex would be struggling with this group too.  He wouldn't have to hear all this **** from the fanbase thou

 

 

I disagree.

The offense (AND defense) we had when Alex was healthy, were both as bad or worse at that time, when he took us to a 6-3 record.

[SoCalSkins]

1 minute ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

I disagree.

The offense (AND defense) we had when Alex was healthy, were both as bad or worse at that time, when he took us to a 6-3 record.

Don’t let facts get in the way of a fanboy fan fiction. 

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

So the fan base talking “bad” about Haskins is bad, but the fan base talking bad about the new FO and structure is okay.

 

 

This thread is a circle jerk of dumb, knee-jerk criticism of Haskins running the gamut from the way his face looks to social media gossip.  It makes me dumber every time I read through it.  But yeah, this **** is totally comparable to pointing out that the FO did a poor job building the roster this offseason, and that hey, maybe it's a bad idea for a rebuilding team to not have a GM.

[Stone Cold]

An average qb with accuracy and touch would completely change the dynamic of our offense

[KDawg]

Just now, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

This thread is a circle jerk of dumb, knee-jerk criticism of Haskins running the gamut from the way his face looks to social media gossip.  It makes me dumber every time I read through it.  But yeah, this **** is totally comparable to pointing out that the FO did a poor job building the roster this offseason, and that hey, maybe it's a bad idea for a rebuilding team to not have a GM.

I don’t know, man. I think you like Haskins and you don’t like criticism of him. You’ve blamed everyone but him for his play. 
 

You and I have never seen eye to eye on him and likely won’t. 
 

I respect your talent evaluation and we all have those guys we love that pan out or we don’t think got a fair shake.

 

To be fair, Haskins didn’t get a fair shake here. Drafting him to this organization with no line, a lame duck HC and GM, no weapons and a rebuilding defense was a big time blunder. Especially because he’s a guy that is a pocket passer and requires time to learn protections and basics because of being a pocket guy. 
 

It certainly doesn’t help that the FO guys reportedly didn’t want him and Snyder did. With the coaches and FO not on the same page as the owner with the pick, you’re fighting a really uphill battle. 
 

But Haskins hasn’t helped himself in the least. Mannerisms, play, comments, etc.

[Malapropismic Depository]

9 minutes ago, KDawg said:

So the fan base talking “bad” about Haskins is bad, but the fan base talking bad about the new FO and structure is okay.

 

 

There does seem to be an unrealistic favorable bias toward Haskinss. My estimation is many of them fell in love with his "strong arm". Which he does have. But that attribute alone will not carry him as an NFL QB. There's too many other required aspects of QB play, where he does not measure up, other than his arm strength.

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Nah man, this offense is bad.  A fully healthy and vintage Alex would be struggling with this group too. 

I actually don't really agree with this. 

 

Going into the season, the thought was the weakest link on the offense would be the OL.  And even with the Scherff injury, it hasn't been the problem people thought it was going to be.  I listen to Cooley's film breakdowns, I also listen to Keim, interviews with the coaches, etc.  They all seem to think the OL is doing the job they are supposed to be doing.  Are they the hogs?  No.  But it's not the complete dumpster fire people were expecting at the beginning of the year.

 

Gibson, in game 4, looks like he could be very special.  McLaurin looks like he's going to be very special. And Steven Sims is interesting in the slot, though he stinks as a punt returner and is hurt right now.  

 

I'll grant you, the rest of the skill position players are just guys.  But Inman, as a second guy, gets open here and there, as does this kid Wright.  Losing Harmon for the season was really unfortunate, and Sims being out doesn't help.  

 

The TE position is as bare as anybody had thought. 

 

But honestly, with the right QB, scheme and execution, there's enough here to be respectable.  Not greatest show on turf or 2007 Patriots, or even 1991 Redskins great.  But respectable enough to move the ball, pick up first downs, and score somewhere around 20 points a game, which is typically middle of the pack for offenses. 

 

I do understand what they wanted to do in the off-season.  They wanted to get a look at McLaurin, Sims, Harmon and a few others.  They didn't want to sign a bunch of high-priced vets, especially if they had questions at QB.  Why start the clock on high-priced contracts if you don't know if you have a solution at QB?  Find out what you can, and start the clock later.  I don't mind that approach.  They went hard after Cooper in the off-season, couldn't get him, even though they offered him more money than Dallas.  Oh, well.  (all of this is really for another thread.)

 

That said, I think a top half of the league QB, like Alex Smith (pre-injury), or even guys like Matt Ryan or Kirk Cousins, guys that are solid starters but not great, (I was looking at 2019 total QBR and selected some folks who are in the 10-15 range), Cousins was 13, Ryan was 14), could make something of this group of folks.  

 

The problem is Haskins isn't that guy.  At least not yet and he might never be, we don't know.  Haskins is in the bottom of the list at the moment in just about every category, including the eye test.  And that is a real problem.  Hell, if he just hit the guys he's throwing to in stride, that would probably be a 30 to 50 yards after catch improvement.  Instead of guys having to contort themselves or dive to catch balls.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

15 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Dude when you put down other players to promote your current fanboy crush you simply look more ridiculous than you even normally do with you takes. In no world can you say Colt McCoy sucks but Haskins doesn’t. Maybe in the fantasy land you apparently occupy but not in the real world. You can defend your guy but when you trash similar or better players it simply becomes absurd. 
 

 

 

 

Wanna go back farther? Ok...

 

During his time here, McCoy had 56% of his drives go for 30 yds or less. I picked 30 yds because if you start on the 25 yd line, 30 yards will get you into the opponent's side of the field.

 

yeah, I know..."Why don't you do the same for your boyfriend, Haskins?" or something equally idiotic lol...(if you didn't say this, my apologies, kind sir). That's because we are talking about how well McCoy would be at getting the offense into FG range...that was my comment after all (made mostly in jest but with some truth behind it).

 

But wait...I can compare McCoy to, say, Fitzpatrick anyway...both are primarily backup journeymen QBs and I would consider Fitzpatrick a decent QB who could give you a reasonable shot at getting into FG range at least on a somewhat regular basis.

 

So far this year Fitzpatrick has had 28 drives (not counting this week). 11 of those drives were under 30 yards and were non-scoring drives. That's 39%.

 

Just as a reminder, last year McCoy had 11 drives of 15 go for less than 30 yards. That's 73% of his drives.

 

So to compare...percentage of drives under 30 yds:

 

McCoy overall time with the team: 56%

MCoy in his last year with the team: 79%

Fitzpatrick this year: 39%

 

I still say my joking comment about McCoy has truth to it. I suppose if you could travel through time you could grab 2014's McCoy and transport him to today--it was 52% back then.

 

By the way, not sure if you noticed but there are numerous others on this thread tearing down Haskins to prop up Allen...which you said didn't/shouldn't need to be done.

 

[SoCalSkins]

7 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

This thread is a circle jerk of dumb, knee-jerk criticism of Haskins running the gamut from the way his face looks to social media gossip.  It makes me dumber every time I read through it.  But yeah, this **** is totally comparable to pointing out that the FO did a poor job building the roster this offseason, and that hey, maybe it's a bad idea for a rebuilding team to not have a GM.

Wow. Fanboys gonna fanboy. And dude don’t be so hard on yourself, it would seem nearly impossible for you to get any dumber when it comes to this thread. You don’t need any

more. Gosh darn it, as Al Franken would say on SNL you’re good enough and people like you! 

[KDawg]

Just now, SoCalSkins said:

Wow. Fanboys gonna fanboy. And dude don’t be so hard on yourself, it would seem nearly impossible for you to get any dumber when it comes to this thread. You don’t need any

more. Gosh darn it, as Al Franken would say on SNL you’re good enough and people like you! 

Not that he needs me to, but I’ll step in on Steve’s behalf. 
 

He likes Haskins and has. Disagreement there aside, he’s one of the better posters on this board as far as overall football conversation and knowledge. 
 

I know you specifically said “in this thread” but I don’t think it’s fair to call out a guy like Steve, with a pretty good overall track record quite like that. 
 

Just my opinion.

[D’Pablo]

The starting left side of our offensive line, TE, slot receiver, and running back have never been starters for 16 games. I really can’t remember the last time we’ve put out an offense with this little starting experience. Don’t get me wrong, Haskins has been a big part of our offensive failures, but this is not exactly an environment conducive to growth. Alex might do better in this offense, but I seriously doubt there’s much upside in having him take the reins. He struggled with the pocket even when Williams was protecting his blindside.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I will say, the one throw Haskins can seem to make pretty regularly is the slant.  It also happens to be my favorite route, because I just loved watching Montana/Young throw it to Jerry Rice.  It was like stealing candy from a baby.  Everybody knew it was coming, and they couldn't do anything about it.  They they'd sprinkle in a slant and go, or fake the slant and go outside, it was the football equivalent to ballet. 

 

However, that said, if your QB can only throw routes that are right in front of him, which is what screens, crossing routes and slants are, then you've got a real problem. 

 

I kindof think what Scott Turner is trying to do with all the motions and everything is get the defense to reveal itself a bit, and making things easier for Haskins.  The problem is, he doesn't seem to be picking up the queues. 

 

As a complete aside, Gibbs used to be a complete master at this  way back in the day, they would run 4 run plays out of 20 formations, and they would shift and then motion on every play, so you never knew exactly where one of the 4 plays was going.  Parcells actually complimented him on it.  He said he found a way to make something so simple work even when everybody knew what you were going to do. 

 

Today, actually, I saw a shift I don't think I'd seen since Gibbs I.  I think they lined up 2 TEs to the offensive right, and then both shifted to the offensive left, and they brought a motion man back from left to right.  As I was watching it, I just had this ridiculous flash back of the 1991 team, which would do that every so often. After the shift and the motion, you never knew what you were going to get.  What I haven't seen Scott Turner do is line up 2 TEs, one on either side, and then flip them pre-snap.  Gibbs used to do that also every so often.  Formation stayed the same, but flipped the location of the 2 players, and the defense often shifted, then shifted back, and told the QB exactly what was coming.  Coach Joe was an offensive genius.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, SoCalSkins said:

 

When Haskins beats a 6-1 Cowboys team

on MNF for the burgundy and gold, you can talk about him being better than Colt. Until then you can’t. 

 

1) Ok then...(ahem)...when McCoy can bring the team back from 17 pts down you can yadda yadda blah blah blah...point being, whether or not McCoy could get the team into FG range with any regularity has abso-stinkin-lutely zilch to do with whether or not he beat the 6-1 Cowboys back in 2014. Please tell me you're basing your thoughts on McCoy on far more than that.

 

2) I never said Haskins was better...YOU said McCoy never would have taken that sack and moved the team out of FG range, I said (somewhat jokingly) that McCoy wouldn't have gotten into FG range to begin with to illustrate how inept he became over the years. Not that he was always inept, but that by his last years here he was pretty much done. I also said that to illustrate you probably have selective memory concerning Colt--bringing up the Cowboys game from 6 years ago provides proof of that.

[GOATFrerotte]

Its the nfl, if you have a stud wr1 and 2 fast backs who can catch and one who can run, you can make an offense work. These are nfl players, Inman, Wright, Sims, AGG are all capable players. The excuse that he has no talent around him is ridiculous. It might not be the Chiefs talent, but a capable qb could run an offense with them. The worst part of the offense is the qb.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

That's setting the bar very low though.

It's not really that hard to improve on a 4 Turnover performance

 

 

What do you feel Haskins needed to do in this game to have him start again next week?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

They called a dink and dunk offense because they couldn't get plays to the second and third levels consistently blocked.  The Ravens went super blitz heavy and we simply could not get them picked up.  Looked like a preparation issue.  So to counter all of the blitzes we threw 500 screens and slants.

 

We're not competitive right now.  Literally, we are not honestly competing.  The coaching staff hasn't done a good job this year and it's hard not to think that Rivera's illness is the reason why.  He might need to step away for the season.

 

From the personnel decisions, to the pending investigations with potentially drastic consequences, to the on field product, to the fact that we didn't even come up with a team name, we're very clearly in a holding pattern and just trying to get to next year.  It sucks.

 

There's more truth to this than people want to admit.

[SoCalSkins]

9 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Not that he needs me to, but I’ll step in on Steve’s behalf. 
 

He likes Haskins and has. Disagreement there aside, he’s one of the better posters on this board as far as overall football conversation and knowledge. 
 

I know you specifically said “in this thread” but I don’t think it’s fair to call out a guy like Steve, with a pretty good overall track record quite like that. 
 

Just my opinion.

I was responding to his “I get dumber every time I read this thread” comment. Al Franken’s Stuart Smiley character came to my mind when he says no you’re plenty dumb enough( al franken would say smart enough) and gosh darn it people like you. It’s not a getting your panties in a bunch situation.

 

When he calls people with opposing views as a circle jerk of dumb criticism I think he needs to defend himself and not have you be his bodyguard. Just my opinion.

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

But Haskins hasn’t helped himself in the least. Mannerisms, play, comments, etc.

 

What puzzles me is that you can acknowledge that the organization completely **** the bed with him, but that you still think there is some unique  and meaningful failure on the part of Haskins that has ruined his development here.  TBH, I think you don't have a broad perspective on how these young QBs behave and develop.  Haskins's on-field struggles have been normal.  The stuff he says and does is normal for these young guys.  Some of our fans harp on the very mild moments of negativity and frustration he has from time to time because they've got a ****ing weird and personal thing about the guy.  But Haskins's public persona is absolutely vanilla young jock and he's never done anything remotely like go off on a reporter because he couldn't read a defense or tweet out something dumb and racist.  What's not normal is the level of dysfunction of the team.  Bad organizations **** up quarterback prospects and we're one of the bad ones.  It's getting more and more obvious that this is typically what happens when QB prospects fail to develop because home scouting has become so much easier and more ubiquitous.  I remember watching Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen when they were good and playing like studs first hand.  I remember watching Dwayne Haskins kick ass when he was playing for a team that was actually good.

 

What amazes me is the mentality of the average fan.  We change players all of the time, lose continuously, and the average fan still believes the problem is the players.  That if we keep making a change at QB, then we'll eventually find the guy who will make us truly competitive.  I wonder when it's going to finally and fully set in that franchise QBs are made rather than found. I imagine it certainly won't happen for this fanbase until we see the process fully play out first hand with our team.

 

I also think we're all pretty much desperately trying to ignore the major structural issues we've got with this rebuild--that our ownership situation is uncertain moving forward.  That we don't have a real GM or a coherent or proven FO structure and staff.  That the HC we've concentrated a massive amount of responsibility and power upon has a serious and deadly disease.  That we've got a bunch of lawsuits and investigations of misconduct going on that could strip away draft picks and/or cap space.  Instead we spent 600 pages arguing over our QB's social media posts and whether or not some career back up QB could come in and get this thing turned around.

[skinfan2k]

36 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

I disagree.

The offense (AND defense) we had when Alex was healthy, were both as bad or worse at that time, when he took us to a 6-3 record.

Alex Smith would make guys like Golden Gandy and Inman worth while pieces in this offense.  Haskins makes no one makes better.  Gibson and Tmac are natural playmakers.  The job of the QB is to make those non playmakers into valuable pieces. 

[KDawg]

@stevemcqueen1 I know quarterbacks personally. I understand how they develop. Not necessarily at the pro level, but I’ve personally experienced it with multiple QBs in D3 and HS. I think I have a pretty good grip on QB development, actually. 
 

On good and bad teams. 
 

The characteristic that makes a QB has nothing to do with their on-field stuff, it’s the way they carry themselves. Even the ones that were kind of... ****y... had an understanding of the way to carry themselves. 
 

You saw Haskins face when he got drafted. The organization failed him. But you can’t sit there and tell me that Haskins has handled this all the way a prospective franchise QB NEEDS to. It’s on YOU to change the narrative. 
 

He has hurt himself and shares the blame for his lack of development. 
 

I would think that moving on is likely going to wind up best for all parties, including Haskins, who needs to go somewhere be can have a real chance. 
 

But, to each their own if you want to call out my personal opinion as to his struggles while you continue to dismiss all of them as organizational. Notice my words... All of them.
 

@SoCalSkins fair enough. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, skinfan2k said:

Alex Smith would make guys like Golden Gandy and Inman worth while pieces in this offense.  Haskins makes no one makes better.  Gibson and Tmac are natural playmakers.  The job of the QB is to make those non playmakers into valuable pieces. 

 

yeah, but Smith never overcame a deficit...if we went down 3-0 it was a guaranteed loss lol. Hell, forget winning, if we were behind he never once orchestrated a drive that resulted in taking the lead during the game. No way we would have come back from being down 17-0 to the eagles or 17-7 to the Browns. On the flip side, though, if we were ever ahead it was a guaranteed win lol...we go up 3-0, chalk one up in the Win column, didn't even need to keep watching. Very strange year.