TheShredder Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Warhead36 said: Not really. Brady actually completed over 60% of his passes right from the get go and that was back before the rules changes. Accuracy and touch are just things you either have or you don't. Very rarely do QBs go from inaccurate to accurate. Still to early to make that determination. Kirk Cousins is ranked among the most accurate QBs. In his first 8 games he was 60%. Haskins is +58%. Cousins hovered around 60-61% for 15 starts, then he got significantly more accurate ending 2015 season with a 69.8%. His 4th year in the NFL and first full season past his first 14 starts. Accuracy can and does improve with experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 24 minutes ago, wit33 said: Comparing the NFL 20 years ago to today is a reach, but I’m with ya on that it takes time. Yep passing stats today are much more gaudy then back then. Much easier to throw the ball now then back then for a number reasons among them the rules have changed to favor the offense. I am ok with some patience with Haskins. But I think the old school give young Qbs years to develop and endure years of painful development is passe. Young QBs often flash early. PFF ran a study which some have posted showscased that young QBs who get off to rough starts are disproportiontaely busts. Conversely, QBs who are successful often show early flashes. The old school rules on this are somewhat outdated. I got no problem with people thinking we will see those flashes this season and lets give him a shot. I am on board with that. But for me if Haskins ends up playing the rest of the season like this and they have a shot of bringing in a better QB -- for me its adios Haskins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 Alright, I’ll say it, I do miss the Gruden passing scheme on offense. I better understand why so many respect him. His ability to attack all levels and scheme intermediate passes was real. So weird, always thought he and Dwayne would e made a great fit. Okay, moving on from that, Turner must get some throws down the field. A strength of Haskins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 29 minutes ago, Warhead36 said: Not really. Brady actually completed over 60% of his passes right from the get go and that was back before the rules changes. Accuracy and touch are just things you either have or you don't. Very rarely do QBs go from inaccurate to accurate. Now you're changing the argument. You said "The special QBs are basically at the very least good right off the bat and then get better and better." Brady was not good right off the bat. He was a middling QB who was carried by his run game and his defense, and unlike Russell Wilson early in his career, Brady wasn't putting up great efficiency stats. I've acknowledged Haskins has to improve his accuracy. But that is a much better problem to have than putting your hopes on a QB who doesn't know how to read a defense. Accuracy can definitely be improved. Hell, we just saw two extremely recent examples of drastic accuracy improvement from Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen in the 2018 draft class alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zCommander Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 14 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said: Is anyone satisfied with where Dwayne is as An NFL QB from his first appearance to today? Genuine question. Genuine answer. No. His development has been really slow. This is what you don't expect of a first round QB. Maybe that is the problem. He should have never been selected in the 1st round. His talent so far doesn't match where he was selected. Until Haskins can prove his worth, it will be a long or even short season. I think Haskins thought he should have been selected sooner. To me right now he is in the 3rd or 4th round the way he is playing. I know he is in a new offense with a new coach but his mechanics are not 1st round material. I don't know what to make of his rolling his tongue around in the presser after the game. To me it looked like why am I up here and do I even care. To me that was not professional at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said: Yep passing stats today are much more gaudy then back then. Much easier to throw the ball then back then for a number reasons among them the rules have changed to favor the offense. I am ok with some patience with Haskins. But I think the old school give young Qbs years to develop and endure years of painful development is passe. Young QBs often flash early. PFF ran a study which some have posted showscased that young QBs who get off to rough starts are disproportiontaely busts. Conversely, QBs who are successful often show early flashes. The old school rules on this are somewhat outdated. I got no problem with people thinking we will see those flashes this season and lets give him a shot. I am on board with that. But for me if Haskins ends up playing the rest of the season like this and they have a shot of bring in a better QB -- for me its adios Haskins. Reading your recent posts appears to put me in lockstep with you at the moment, in regards to Haskins. Ya, no way do I want to wait until next year to make an evaluation, due to lack of talent. The current offense seems to be schemed for Kyle Allen or the other extreme a Drew Brees type QB. Get the ball down field! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartyPosse Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, zskins said: Genuine answer. No. His development has been really slow. This is what you don't expect of a first round QB. Maybe that is the problem. He should have never been selected in the 1st round. His talent so far doesn't match where he was selected. Until Haskins can prove his worth, it will be a long or even short season. I think Haskins thought he should have been selected sooner. To me right now he is in the 3rd or 4th round they way he is playing. I know he is in a new offense with a new coach but his mechanics are not 1st round material. I don't know what to make of his rolling his tongue around in the presser after the game. To me it looked like why am I up here and do I even care. To me that was not professional at all. My biggest concern seems to be we, as fans, have become accustomed to making as many excuses as we can regarding slow development. We did it for RG3 and the OL, then we did it for Cousins and his lack of weapons once Pierre and Desean left and now we're doing it for Dwayne. So far the first two didn't seem to elevate their game when presented with the things they didn't have here, so it's hard to expect anything different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 Haskins playing poorly is the fault of all you people who ****ed and moaned about Alex Smith running a boring offense when the team was 6-2. You've brought garbage energy to our team and now we shall suffer. Jerks. Look what you've done. You know who you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOATFrerotte Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 10 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said: Is anyone satisfied with where Dwayne is as An NFL QB from his first appearance to today? Genuine question. Nope. Ended near dead last in QBR last year, dead last in QBR this year. The eye test is the same. Just a swing and a miss of a draft pick. And people keep bringing up qbs that defied the odds, for every one of them there are 100 that looked terrible from the start and remained terrible as they disappeared from the league. I say give Allen a shot. If we could just get a quarterback that can complete passes downfield, we could compete for the NFC East this year. That would be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 Josh Allen was not doing this in his first year as the starter. Everything was a fastball. 52.8% completion percentage his rookie year; 58.8% his sophomore year; 70.4% so far this year. Shocking that 20-something year-old QBs aren't finished products yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskins59 Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 People need to watch this video to understand what's going on. I totally agree with Riviera. Look at the video below, starting at 6:05. To paraphrase, Ron Riviera thinks he is so hyped in the first quarter that he goes through his progression very quickly, or throwing the ball too quickly (by the way, time to throw stats back this up). Further, he says that Haskins is making the right reads and the right decisions. Due to progressing too quickly, he is throwing the ball inaccurately. He also talks about Dwayne's throw to Logan Thomas around 11:45. Which, again, he attributes to speeding up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said: Nope. Ended near dead last in QBR last year, dead last in QBR this year. The eye test is the same. Just a swing and a miss of a draft pick. And people keep bringing up qbs that defied the odds, for every one of them there are 100 that looked terrible from the start and remained terrible as they disappeared from the league. I say give Allen a shot. If we could just get a quarterback that can complete passes downfield, we could compete for the NFC East this year. That would be fun. Totally disagree on Allen. There’s nothing to gain by playing him just to play him. It’s not promising (and I honestly don’t expect much to change) but we do need ideally 16 games of starting reps on tape to evaluate Dwayne fully. We did invest a 1 on him. Need to be 100% sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShredder Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 It would be reasonable to evaluate Haskins for 2020 at the Bye and the end of the year for a body of work and issuing a grade with all things considered. The fact is that in 2020 WFT is saddled with Haskins and Turner with neither one of them in fear for their positions. When they both flop, they both still likely return next season before they feel any heat. Sooo sit back and embrace the stench! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said: Josh Allen was not doing this in his first year as the starter. Everything was a fastball. 52.8% completion percentage his rookie year; 58.8% his sophomore year; 70.4% so far this year. Shocking that 20-something year-old QBs aren't finished products yet. This really isn’t a relevant comparison because Allen’s rushing threat made him more of an instant contributor offensively while he worked on passing. Dwayne doesn’t have that luxury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOATFrerotte Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 1 minute ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said: Totally disagree on Allen. There’s nothing to gain by playing him just to play him. It’s not promising (and I honestly don’t expect much to change) but we do need ideally 16 games of starting reps on tape to evaluate Dwayne fully. We did invest a 1 on him. Need to be 100% sure Other than us drafting him I just don't see what he has done to earn the starting snaps over Allen. If Allen looks better and gives you a better chance to win, then let him play. He's only 24. I'd keep playing Haskins over an older dude like Smith though. But I'm interested in seeing if Allen could complete some passes downfield and give us a shot at winning the worst division in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 7 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said: This really isn’t a relevant comparison because Allen’s rushing threat made him more of an instant contributor offensively while he worked on passing. Dwayne doesn’t have that luxury Not relevant? It's directly relevant. This is Dwayne's biggest weakness, as it was Allen's. I'm comparing weaknesses, not strengths, meaning Allen's rushing ability is what's irrelevant here. I want to see him improve his biggest weakness, like Allen has done. That's what I'm looking for. So it's very relevant to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said: Not relevant? It's directly relevant. This is Dwayne's biggest weakness, as it was Allen's. I'm comparing weaknesses, not strengths, meaning Allen's rushing ability is what's irrelevant here. I want to see him improve his biggest weakness, like Allen has done. That's what I'm looking for. So it's very relevant to me. Fair. My point is that I don’t know if he’ll get a chance to improve that without something like Allen’s rushing ability to lean on in the mean time. But yeah, i got your point. My mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 Just now, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said: Fair. My point is that I don’t know if he’ll get a chance to improve that without something like Allen’s rushing ability to lean on in the mean time. But yeah, i got your point. My mistake No worries at all. I know where you're coming from. And I stated here yesterday that if Dwayne doesn't improve his accuracy, he'll likely be replaced this offseason. So, Josh Allen will likely have a longer leash than Dwayne due to Allen's rushing ability, which helped the Bills win games even when he was inaccurate. So I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 1 hour ago, wit33 said: Comparing the NFL 20 years ago to today is a reach, but I’m with ya on that it takes time. Wonder if Brady struggled with accuracy early on? Is this an issue for young QBs due to lack of confidence in a system? A completion rate is determined by more than a QBs accuracy. Some of Dwaynes "missed" throws are not actual placement issues. they're him pushing the ball downfield but keeping it away from defenders. If you want to to push it vertically but you don't have good receivers, and more basic than that, you don't have good sync with the receivers you do have, you're just not going to complete these throws most of the time. So you can either dial it back and throw gimmes and low options the whole game like a Minshew or an Alex Smith. It's not bad but there is no real development there and you won't beat good defenses with only a short passing game unless you've got horses up front and great backs and playmaker pass catchers. Or you can grind through the bumpy installation of the full passing game and miss a lot of throws and hopefully learn from all of the situations you're encountering. And hopefully you and your OC and pass catchers and protection can all get on the same page and everyone can stay on schedule. I think we want Dwayne to be aggressive no matter what. We've already got Alex Smith and it's not enough to compete at the highest level of the sport. Not without all of the other pieces being great. Fans are going to be fans, which is to say they're going to be clueless and reactionary, but the organization needs to be patient with Dwayne. And Scott Turner for that matter. We're trying to build an offense from nothing. We have basically four above average talents on that side of the ball, and two are second year players and one is a rookie. A lot of the rest of the guys are replacement level or worse. This is going to take a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Acre Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 How many QBs of the last 20 years who've "flashed early" have also burned out early? Build the team around Haskins and if he doesn't pan out, the Team will be ready for the next savior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max21 Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 Just watched a bunch of his highlights from Ohio state and he just looked like he played with much more confidence in college and yes I know it’s against big 10 defenses. Some players just make the jump easier than others I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volsmet Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 We should bootleg 90% of our passing plays. 29 minutes ago, max21 said: Just watched a bunch of his highlights from Ohio state and he just looked like he played with much more confidence in college and yes I know it’s against big 10 defenses. Some players just make the jump easier than others I guess He had the same struggles and same flashes of brilliance in college that he’s had here. 1 hour ago, GothSkinsFan said: How many QBs of the last 20 years who've "flashed early" have also burned out early? Build the team around Haskins and if he doesn't pan out, the Team will be ready for the next savior. Being terrible is better than being ok. Sewell, Fields or Lawrence do more for us than a 50/50 proposition in the middle of the draft. 1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said: No worries at all. I know where you're coming from. And I stated here yesterday that if Dwayne doesn't improve his accuracy, he'll likely be replaced this offseason. So, Josh Allen will likely have a longer leash than Dwayne due to Allen's rushing ability, which helped the Bills win games even when he was inaccurate. So I agree with you. His accuracy on the easy ones, in the middle of the field, was poor in the first half. That’s entirely mechanical, which he struggles with more than he’s anticipating pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 8 minutes ago, volsmet said: Being terrible is better than being ok. Sewell, Fields or Lawrence do more for us than a 50/50 proposition in the middle of the draft. Yep big time espeically if this draft ends up as stacked as its looking to be on offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 Good thread here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volsmet Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 After week 1 I thought we were firmly in contention for the #1 overall pick, so I’m not on the same page as Nick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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