FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[volsmet]

4 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Good thing the sample size spans more than one game then 😉.

Just a note, I don’t watch a ton of Tennessee Titans football, but when I have, Tannehill hasn’t been a guy I’d want to pay much for. It’s a silly comparison, just picking a random guy who found success after moving on isn’t an argument for DH, it doesn’t make any sense. Tannehill didn’t win the Titans job over a bum, he has done well with his opportunity, like Nick Foles did. 

31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Then call me insane. No way I'd make that trade.  It wouldn't even be a hard decision not even a little bit.  Maybe if AJ Green was 23 again.

 

 

 

I was curious so just looked up all the QBR ratings this far which I do take more seriously than PFF grades.   I thought Baker wasn't having a hot year.   Brady, wow.  Season though is still young obviously. 

 

 

What I notice, all of those guys are the same person aside from a few. Don’t pay your QBs. 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

What I notice, all of those guys are the same person aside from a few. Don’t pay your QBs. 

 

I know there is a lot of emotion on this thread about the subject.  And as I mentoned you were really instrumental in forming my opinion on Haskins before the draft.  What's you gut right now on him?  Top 10 QB ultimately.  15-20 range?  Worse?  

[volsmet]

14 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Lol @ people looking using youth as a positive when comparing Cincy's supporting cast to ours right now.  Very sneaky way to prop their argument up.  We're not talking about a few years from now, we're talking about today.

Though it makes more sense than citing 12 games of Ryan Tannehill. 

[HTTRDynasty]

2 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Just a note, I don’t watch a ton of Tennessee Titans football, but when I have, Tannehill hasn’t been a guy I’d want to pay much for. It’s a silly comparison, just picking a random guy who found success after moving on isn’t an argument for DH, it doesn’t make any sense. Tannehill didn’t win the Titans job over a bum, he has done well with his opportunity, like Nick Foles did. 

 

Disagree.  Tannehill was PFF's #3 ranked QB last season.  He didn't start over Mariota off the bat last year because the Titans were still holding out hope Mariota was the answer.  When it became clear he wasn't, they inserted Tannehill into the lineup, and all Ryan has done is perform like a top 10 QB since taking over.

 

The argument as it relates to Haskins is that your supporting cast matters much, much more than people think.  Also, it's a good comparison for a QB whose accuracy improved as he developed.

 

Not sure how it's silly.  Every comparison would be "random" if you want to look at it that way.

[Burgundy Yoda]

40 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

PFT grades are nice, but every sane person on the planet would trade Terry/Sims/Gibson for Green/Boyd/Mixon.  And they’d do it in a New York minute.

I must be insane then. Green's age plays a big factor in that decision though. 

[KDawg]

17 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Lol @ people looking using youth as a positive when comparing Cincy's supporting cast to ours right now.  Very sneaky way to prop their argument up.  We're not talking about a few years from now, we're talking about today.

McLaurin > Green

Gibson = Mixon

Boyd > Sims

 

i give the edge to Cincy there, but it’s not a landslide. Mixon is very overrated, in my opinion. 
 

Top to bottom Cincy is better than WFT’s offensive talent, but it’s like #32 vs. #28 type of better.

[HTTRDynasty]

4 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Though it makes more sense than citing 12 games of Ryan Tannehill. 

 

Actually, it's 15 games.  10 games as a starter last year in the regular season.  3 playoff games.  2 games in 2020.

 

And, yeah, you seem to be completely missing the point.

[KDawg]

The Tannehill argument doesn’t make sense simply because the guy wasn’t a QB for more than a year before entering the draft. Haskins has been a specialized QB for a long, long time.

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

McLaurin > Green

Gibson = Mixon

Boyd > Sims

 

i give the edge to Cincy there, but it’s not a landslide. Mixon is very overrated, in my opinion. 
 

Top to bottom Cincy is better than WFT’s offensive talent, but it’s like #32 vs. #28 type of better.

 

How about all their other weapons you're leaving out?  And it's laughable to say Gibson = Mixon at this point.  Find me one team that would give Gibson the contract right now that Mixon just received.

 

McLaurin alone does not make up for the offensive depth and talent surrounding Burrow.  And people are overreacting on Green so far this year.  Hard to have a high catch rate when your air yards are this ridiculous.  He's still a good player.

 

 

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

The Tannehill argument doesn’t make sense simply because the guy wasn’t a QB for more than a year before entering the draft. Haskins has been a specialized QB for a long, long time.

 

I could literally poke random holes like this into any comparison.  Go ahead and try to list a comparison for literally anything.  I'll sit back, poke a hole in it, and pat myself on the back. 😀

[volsmet]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I know there is a lot of emotion on this thread about the subject.  And as I mentoned you were really instrumental in forming my opinion on Haskins before the draft.  What's you gut right now on him?  Top 10 QB ultimately.  15-20 range?  Worse?  

I think you can win with a cheap Haskins. I don’t see the top 10 upside because he still has the same issues he did in college & I don’t see how things can improve mechanically if you don’t protect him. I’ve seen reps where he’s slowing things down & he looks better, but you can’t change habits in chaos & we have given him nothing but chaos to work within. Since we drafted him my worry has been precisely what we see right now, no protection & DH starting to feel the footsteps before they’re actually there. I could argue that nobody on the planet has a work environment less conducive to success than DH.. from legal issues with how our owner treats his fellow bipeds, to the team name, to the supporting cast, coaching changes and covid... it’s absolute insanity that he is left out there to work with at the infancy of his career. I don’t think we could have failed him more resoundingly — I think he has plenty of potential — I don’t look around and see many QBs who I think would be successful here. 

9 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Disagree.  Tannehill was PFF's #3 ranked QB last season.  He didn't start over Mariota off the bat last year because the Titans were still holding out hope Mariota was the answer.  When it became clear he wasn't, they inserted Tannehill into the lineup, and all Ryan has done is perform like a top 10 QB since taking over.

 

The argument as it relates to Haskins is that your supporting cast matters much, much more than people think.  Also, it's a good comparison for a QB whose accuracy improved as he developed.

 

Not sure how it's silly.  Every comparison would be "random" if you want to look at it that way.

 

[GOATFrerotte]

WFT passing after two games

 

Y/PG 31st out of 32

Completion % 32nd out of 32

Completions 31st out of 32

 

Maybe one day he turns out like Tannehill or Josh Allen or he turns out like the hundreds of qbs that simply weren't good enough to play in the NFL. Whatever the crystal ball says, the reality says, his production puts him as the worst to second worst qb in the league after 9 games starting. Watching the games, he simply does not look like he's someone that will progress to an elite qb. Maybe if you stack the offense you'll get a game manager out of him. Whatever it is, it is one of the ugliest offenses I've seen from the Skins and that is saying a heck of a lot considering some of their offenses. 

[volsmet]

8 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Actually, it's 15 games.  10 games as a starter last year in the regular season.  3 playoff games.  2 games in 2020.

 

And, yeah, you seem to be completely missing the point.

Yes, the depth of your point is one I can’t quite grasp. I’ll step aside and leave it to the football savants. 
 

 

[KDawg]

11 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

How about all their other weapons you're leaving out?  And it's laughable to say Gibson = Mixon at this point.  Find me one team that would give Gibson the contract right now that Mixon just received.

 

McLaurin alone does not make up for the offensive depth and talent surrounding Burrow.  And people are overreacting on Green so far this year.  Hard to have a high catch rate when your air yards are this ridiculous.  He's still a good player.

 

 

 

I could literally poke random holes like this into any comparison.  Go ahead and try to list a comparison for literally anything.  I'll sit back, poke a hole in it, and pat myself on the back. 😀

I know you love Haskins and will skirt all criticism in order to defend him, fair or otherwise. So I know this is where you’re coming from with this whole thing. And I get it. You liked him. You want him to pan out.

 

Mixon shouldn’t have gotten the contract he has, and, quite frankly, the contract is part of the reason I put Gibson in line with him.

 

48 yards after contact for Gibson is pretty good. And Mixon hasn’t done much. He’s also, allegedly, had domestic incidents. 
 

Green is good, sure. But McLaurin is better. He’s one of the few WFT players I’ll stand on a hill for. Other than the elite, McLaurin is at least on par with most of the non-elite top guys already. 
 

Your post asked about those three and if we’d trade for them. 
 

I answered. You got upset because it is against your premise that Burrow would fail here as well. 
 

I’ll say it plainly: Cincy has a better supporting cast, but it’s not top of the line. It’s marginally better from among the worst in the league at the moment. 

 

Burrow is a better quarterback (and college prospect) than Haskins is/was.

[Skinsinparadise]

I think the Haskins debate is getting a bit intense. 😄   I think there is an underpinning though to some of these arguments where people aren't going to see eye to eye because the underpinning is different.  

 

Camp A:  Haskins is mega talented.  He's a franchise QB and its borderline obvious.  We just need to be patient with him.  Everyone needs to chill and factor the mitigating factors that are delaying his progress.  Give him time and you will likely see it.  They don't say its 100% slam dunk but its likely to go down for him being the guy so don't ruin it with impatience.  And they are very passionate about explaining his attributes and all the mitigating factors in the way for him to succeed. 

 

Camp B:  Haskins has talent but has serious weaknesses too, he's boom-bust.  And the bust potential is very real.  If those same weaknesses manifest over time the thoughts about bust magnify.    There are some QB's who scream franchise QB, Haskins isn't one of those dudes but at the same time its possible.   

 

Camp C  He doesn't have it, bust waiting to happen

 

Camp D. He is the Redskins QB so lets have his back and ride this to the end no matter what.

 

Camp E.  A mix of all of that.

 

So yeah if the premise of where we are on Haskins is different, we aren't going to agree on where this should go.   I am firmly in the B category.  I don't think he's screaming franchise QB type material.  I think if he fixed his flaws he would be but those flaws aren't ones that are that easy to fix.   I also have limits for how long I'd be willing to wait if another opportunity arises.  He can become a franchise guy.  But to me i see bust potential, too or he just ends up "meh".  And there is a limit to my patience watching Haskins develop.  And its not because I disagree with a broad principle of giving QB's time.  

 

If I was in love with Haskins before the draft, I am sure I'd feel entirely differently about this and in turn wouldn't understand people's impatience.  But that's not how I feel about Haskins.  It's how i feel about players I did love before we drafted them like Chase, Gibson, and McLaurin.  i am not saying I am right.  Who knows?  But all we got is our opinion so I am running with mine. 😀

 

And I always root for every player we got to turn out whether I loved them in the draft or not.   But I want the team to win so if an opportunity arose to upgrade I'd do it.  My loyalty isn't to a player but the team. 

 

I took plenty of slings and arrows defending our young QBs (pretty much all of them) on different threads early on.  So i get the calls for patience.  I've made the same claim plenty of times.  But I am burned out on it.  This thread isn't a heck of a lot different than our previous threads as to our young Qbs. Similar arguments, different day.  It's not that i think Haskins can't break that bad streak we are on with young QBs -- but the arguments about riding the flashes, supporting cast, coaching, patience are eerily similar.  So I hope its not a bad omen. 😀

 

And since I wasn't a Haskins guy before the draft, I got some limits on how long I am willing to call for patience for him.  I definitely give him the whole season.  I definitely think the dude has a shot.  But if he plays like this througout the season, I am not giving him a pass then.  And in 2 seconds I would draft another QB in that context if one falls that they love.   But as for this season, will see.  I am open minded.  I think he does have a bounce back game next week.  

 

[HTTRDynasty]

9 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Your post asked about those three and if we’d trade for them. 

 

Reading comprehension please.  Where did I ever ask that?

 

This whole post is strange.

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, volsmet said:

I think you can win with a cheap Haskins. I don’t see the top 10 upside because he still has the same issues he did in college & I don’t see how things can improve mechanically if you don’t protect him. I’ve seen reps where he’s slowing things down & he looks better, but you can’t change habits in chaos & we have given him nothing but chaos to work within. Since we drafted him my worry has been precisely what we see right now, no protection & DH starting to feel the footsteps before they’re actually there. I could argue that nobody on the planet has a work environment less conducive to success than DH.. from legal issues with how our owner treats his fellow bipeds, to the team name, to the supporting cast, coaching changes and covid... it’s absolute insanity that he is left out there to work with at the infancy of his career. I don’t think we could have failed him more resoundingly — I think he has plenty of potential — I don’t look around and see many QBs who I think would be successful here. 

 

 

So to sum up your point, correct me if I am wrong.

 

A.  You don't think he's a top 10 franchise type of QB.

 

B.  They have made it more difficult by giving him a horrific supporting cast.

 

If so, I agree, that's pretty much where i am at.  My main point is i'd cut bait if things don't pick up this season if we end up with a top pick where we can get a potentially marquee QB.  

[Darrell Green Fan]

The biggest fear I have is that he shows just enough to give the team hope, so they stick with him and he never develops. And I think this is the most likely scenario. 

 

To steal lines from another thread, including my own, if teams did what some of our fans want them to do the Cards would still be waiting on Josh Rosen to develop because he has shown flashes and has a big arm. Most often if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.  We have an entire season to find out if we have a player or a duck.  

[GOATFrerotte]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I took plenty of slings and arrows defending our young QBs (pretty much all of them) on different threads early on.  So i get the calls for patience.  I've made the same claim plenty of times.  But I am burned out on it.  This thread isn't a heck of a lot different than our previous threads as to our young Qbs. Similar arguments, different day.  It's not that i think Haskins can't break that bad streak we are on with young QBs -- but the arguments about riding the flashes, supporting cast, coaching, patience are eerily similar.  So I hope its not a bad omen. 😀

 

 

This right here.. I think those that have been watching the WFT for decades are in this camp, the one that is simply burnt out on hearing "be patient" with young qbs that don't look the part while so many young qbs are coming in the league and making an instant impact on the team. We've heard it so many times and it never works out. This time I'm just not going to do that, and going to move on early to find someone that can make an impact and doesn't need an all star cast around them to look like they can complete a pass over 5 yards. 

[Commander -JB-]

Yo the Bengals are trash get off their dick 🤣

[KDawg]

10 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Reading comprehension please.  Where did I ever ask that?

 

This whole post is strange.

Ah. Trythebeal asked that. 
 

But, I think most of your Haskins love fest posts, refusing to see his flaws are odd. So I’m glad we’re on the same page.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

The biggest fear I have is that he shows just enough to give the team hope, so they stick with him and he never develops. And I think this is the most likely scenario. 

 

To steal lines from another thread, including my own, if teams did what some of our fans want them to do the Cards would still be waiting on Josh Rosen to develop because he has shown flashes and has a big arm. Most often if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.  We have an entire season to find out if we have a player or a duck.  

 

That's my thing, too.  Haskins might shut up the critics and I hope he does this season.  But if its a mixed bag with some of his same weaknesses being evident at the end of the season -- and you lets say you can get Lawrence or Fields or whomever they love if they love a dude at that pick -- then you absolutely do what the Cards did.  

[Llevron]

8 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

The biggest fear I have is that he shows just enough to give the team hope, then never develops. And I think this is the most likely scenario.  To steal lines from another thread, including my own, if we teams did what some of our fans want them to do the Cards would still be waiting on Josh Rosen to develop because he has shown flashes and has a big arm. Most often if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.  We have an entire season to find out if we have a player or a duck.  

 

Dunno. I think most of even the Haskins homers would take a pick like Murray or in this case Lawrence if we had the opportunity. I certainly would and I can say that and want to see Haskins succeed at the same time. Obviously both wont happen, but im rooting for either lol. Though worst case is him win just enough games to keep us out of it.....though right now that doesnt look like a problem for us. 

 

I basically like him for his contract at this point. Young guy, we can build a good offense around him cause hes cheap, and if he cant make it go we can draft his replacement and let Haskins take the hits until the you guys is ready and able. Thats my hope. 

[HTTRDynasty]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Ah. Trythebeal asked that. 
 

But, I think most of your Haskins love fest posts, refusing to see his flaws are odd. So I’m glad we’re on the same page.

 

FaIse.  I've been one of his toughest critics when it comes to his accuracy issues.  

[Llevron]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

 

FaIse.  I've been one of his toughest critics when it comes to his accuracy issues.  

 

Well....one guy said his accuracy is making Rons sickness worse, so maybe not toughest. 

 

WRONG AGAIN 

 

/s

[KDawg]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

 

FaIse.  I've been one of his toughest critics when it comes to his accuracy issues.  

Yet make every excuse for his shortcomings... including pretending the Bengals supporting cast is good to prop your point.

 

Haskins is absolutely a victim of a poor cast. But he’s not getting the job done in the moments he gets. It’s early in the season. He can still do well and prove to be the guy. But right now? He isn’t getting it done.