The Skins Can't Win With These Coaches

[illone]

4 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

If it were me..I'd ask Gregg Williams for HC. 

 

Snyer messed up by not naming him the HC when Gibbs left.  I could be wrong, but i think that relationship is fractured...

[JoggingGod]

6 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

If it were me..I'd ask Gregg Williams for HC. Attitude is what we are missing...just devoid of aggression..everything if soft..playing probabilities like Madden. Not trying to scare people into mistakes. Rushing 3 for ANY REASON is soft play. A good QB with good receivers with enough time can make a completion as we saw 13/14 times. Most people would get a clue 3 outa 4. 13 outa 14 is just plain STUPID

Dear god no. Gregg would be a horrible HC. He’s not a leader in the slightest.

[Warhead36]

Williams is the perfect #2. He is a terrible head coach.

 

I do think we need an assertive, dominant personality. Gruden is just too soft at times even though I like his offensive system.

[dyst]

No to Greg Williams. 

[JoggingGod]

Lol you guys are really falling for the tough head coach meme

[illone]

27 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

Dear god no. Gregg would be a horrible HC. He’s not a leader in the slightest.

 

Exactly we have seen that movie before.  Horrible ending.

[Skinsinparadise]

I like Gregg as a coordinator save all the bounty gate stuff, hopefully he put that past him but not as a HC.  i am not one of the Jay haters here but if I were my focus would remain on Dan-Bruce.  Does Dan think canning Jay is what he needs to do to sell hope for next year?  Listening to beat guys the impression I get is that the odds that Jay is here next year is about give or take 20%.  Where the odds that Bruce stays here is probably closer to 80%.  If it plays out that way it will be a wild off season -- does Dan just let Bruce do his thing on this and he taps into his Tampa connections?    Does Dan go for a splash and if so can he still attract a top name?  Some think he can't now.   Or do they sell O'Connell as in theory the next McVay?

 

To me Jay is a subplot not a main plot line.  The main twist with Jay I think is does he torch his way out of here like Shanny did in his last season. 

 

 

 

 

[Brokenstriker]

On 9/9/2019 at 10:36 PM, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Thompson is key on 3rd downs.

I know ... but the #4 back is his back-up and also a special teamer ... so if you're only going to dress 3 running backs seems like it would be best to make sure you have a legitimate threat to run available (Gruden talked about actual run plays but the defense needs to beleive it could be run or the defense adjusts to focus on pass) if your starter is out ... that would mean Guise and Peterson.  That means every 1st and 2nd down and plenty of 3rd downs ... even when it's a pass play ... also known as most of the damn game.  Both have decent receiving capabilities leaving only the 3rd and loooong SOL sitautions where a main running back isn't really a good option ... so you roll the dice with a shifty-quick back like Thompson and there aren't many of those plays.  Basically we kept only one back who should be on the field for virtually all the 1st and 2nd downs and frankly plenty of 3rd downs ... and we kept 2 back who's only unigue skill set is an occasional play when the **** hit the fan.  Can Thompson function as the main back?  Maybe Gruden thinks so but I sure as hell don't.  If the holes are massive and he doesn't see a potential tackler until he's 3+ yards beyond the LOS then maybe but that's not happening and even when it does you shouldn't plan on it and torpedo your ability to put a legit main running back on the field as a back-up.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

52 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

Lol you guys are really falling for the tough head coach meme

Just someone who hates to lose and shows it. Someone who will hold players accountable and motivate (yea..bounty gate was over the top but at least he thinks out of the box)

All the HC should do is Hold the OC and DC accountable to the game plans and adjustments. I think Gregg can do that. Rex Ryan could if he gets away from the details/play calling and leads. I like Gruden's system and concepts....BUT he doesn't have the personality to scare/motivate coaches and players to excel. What sticks in my mind is Buddy Ryan punching Gilbride before halftime ...where is the passion?

[Skinsinparadise]

I'd add that the team has enough drama, imagine with Gregg as head coach?  I like him as a D coordinator but not HC.

 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'd add that the team has enough drama, imagine with Gregg as head coach?  I like him as a D coordinator but not HC.

 

He wasn’t a great HC in Buffalo.  

 

I’m not sure if he would be better than Jay. 

 

The reason I would give him a shot next year over Jay, even if Bruce is still here is we know what Jay can do. Which is maintain and be average.  We can disagree, but I don’t see Jay as giving a team a boost to win a SB. 

 

We don’t know what Gregg can do here.  So, we might as well try something else because the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. 

 

It might be a catastrophe.  Which also might not be the worst thing in the world if Bruce is still here.

 

honestly, if you are playing the long game, either Bruce is fired this year, or you want him to fire Jay and hire his version of Zorn.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

He wasn’t a great HC in Buffalo.  

 

I’m not sure if he would be better than Jay. 

 

The reason I would give him a shot next year over Jay, even if Bruce is still here is we know what Jay can do. Which is maintain and be average.  We can disagree, but I don’t see Jay as giving a team a boost to win a SB. 

 

We don’t know what Gregg can do here.  So, we might as well try something else because the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. 

 

It might be a catastrophe.  Which also might not be the worst thing in the world if Bruce is still here.

 

honestly, if you are playing the long game, either Bruce is fired this year, or you want him to fire Jay and hire his version of Zorn.

 

 

I disagree with a bunch of points from those clamoring for a new HC.  And that's not because I love Jay and I think it's him or bust.   But I've explained that enough.  So on Gregg:

 

If I had to run with one of the narratives I hear often from the people clamoring for a new coach, it would be this one:

 

A.  Modern NFL -- adapting college concepts, etc.   The stuff that makes so many already agog over Kellen Moore among the national media.

 

While I don't think Jay is a dinosaur on this front -- he's also IMO not on the cutting edge.  So if people want a cutting edge type.  I can follow the logic.  Gregg doesn't strike me as a dude that would bring that.  Plus I like his personality from the context of being a D coordinator but he just doesn't hit me well as a HC.  I'd have taken him by a mile over Zorn and felt that way back then, too.  But now that he's up there in age and there's a lot of water under the bridge, it's tough for me to get excited about him as a HC.

 

The more I think about it, I think its O'Connell or bust.  I don't see who else they'd attract.  And I'd presume they don't want to let him go and they deal with another McVay like narrative. 

[SemperFi Skins]

I'm still on the Kirby Smart train (for many years)... though I have no idea if he'd be successful in the NFL or ever leave such a sweet gig at his alma mater. 

 

But if anybody has familiarity and can bring the most out of these players, it'd be him.... he's already coached many of them as DC at Alabama years back.

[Voice_of_Reason]

@Skinsinparadise Gregg wouldn’t be my first choice.  

 

KO would be fine.  Shrug.  As I said, something different.  Jay isn’t the guy.  So there’s no point in banging your head against the wall with it.  

 

Try something else.  If it works, great. If it doesn’t, that’s one step closer to no Bruce.

 

Just a point though, there’s nothing saying Dan won’t hire another Vinny to replace Bruce.  He hired Bruce to replace Vinny. 

 

The whole FO thing hinges on Dan’s ability to hire an improvement on Bruce.  Which is far from a sure thing.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

The whole FO thing hinges on Dan’s ability to hire an improvement on Bruce.  Which is far from a sure thing.

I would *think* Dan would confer with Joe Gibbs on a move like that or someone with that level of Cred.... *I Hope*

[skins island connection]

6 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

@Skinsinparadise Gregg wouldn’t be my first choice.  

 

KO would be fine.  Shrug.  As I said, something different.  Jay isn’t the guy.  So there’s no point in banging your head against the wall with it.  

 

Try something else.  If it works, great. If it doesn’t, that’s one step closer to no Bruce.

 

Just a point though, there’s nothing saying Dan won’t hire another Vinny to replace Bruce.  He hired Bruce to replace Vinny. 

 

The whole FO thing hinges on Dan’s ability to hire an improvement on Bruce.  Which is far from a sure thing.

 

 If this weekend's game is ugly, then Jay's seat will be smoldering, maybe even glowing hot.

He still has the same issues, the same tendencies, and after 3-4 years, opponents pick up on stuff like that, which would partially explain why his record is slowly going down.

 

I would hope that Snyder would hire a legitimate consultant agency to find a replacement for Bruce, who is the main problem with this organization. Its so damned frustrating that Snyder has so much trust and faith in this clown, but replacing Bruce would most likely lead to a complete re-build on the coaching staff and the entire organization for that matter, IF the person has a proven track record. I'm sure he would want to do things 'his way', and at this point I say why not.

 

This team is so underachieving and disappointing; injuries piling up every year, and there are some damn good players on this team, but for unknown reasons they're not being used to get their best out of them.  I know I shouldn't dwell on the past, but in the good ol' days the biggest worry was why the Redskins didn't curb stomp a team; today its worrying who is gonna drop next and how will Gruden/Manusky fail to overcome the loss.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

Just a point though, there’s nothing saying Dan won’t hire another Vinny to replace Bruce.  He hired Bruce to replace Vinny. 

 

The whole FO thing hinges on Dan’s ability to hire an improvement on Bruce.  Which is far from a sure thing.

 

Yeah trust me I get Dan could hire another Vinny, he's dense enough to do it.  Or I can see him think that fans are as obsessed with nostalgia as him and he hires some old school Redskin like Darrell Green or whomever and thinks fans would be jazzed about it and start showing up again to games    Among the series of weird things about Dan includes that for a dude who is young compared to his fellow owners -- he's stuck in the past and his older colleagues seem to be way more advanced and modern in their thinking. 

 

I am just hoping we got lucky, that's all.  The obvious thing to do is elevate Kyle Smith so I am gathering there is a shot it happens.  

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

I would *think* Dan would confer with Joe Gibbs on a move like that or someone with that level of Cred.... *I Hope*

 

I love Gibbs but that would worry me a little.  Gibbs supposedly loved Cerrato.  I recall him talking up how smart and organized Cerrato was.  It's no wonder Vinny still gushes about Gibbs.  Gibbs was really good to Vinny in his public comments among other things.   I heard an interview where Gibbs also bucked up Bruce in the off season.

 

Gibbs strikes me like one of my old bosses.  That boss was such a nice person and so trusting that he would fall for the Machiavellian types (some of my colleagues 😀) who knew how to brownnose him because he never doubted their motives.   When Bruce according to C. Russell among others was on the ropes for a little while towards the end of the previous season and the early part of the off season -- it wouldn't shock me if Dan asked Gibbs what he thought of Bruce and Gibbs told him don't lose that dude or something of that kind.  

[TheShredder]

Someone needs to start a Poll and ask what week Gruden gets fired.  Also, if Manusky gets fired with him.  

 

My vote was week 5 but as it's playing out right now with how bad this team has been coached and the complete and consistent Failure after halftime I'd say it could be sooner.

 

[TheShredder]

The move I'd like to see is Firing Gruden and Manusky at the same time.  Letting Bill Callahan finish the season and bumping up Tomsula to Def.Coordinator. That would be far more interesting to watch.  

[TheShredder]

9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Does Dan go for a splash and if so can he still attract a top name?  Some think he can't now.   Or do they sell O'Connell as in theory the next McVay?

I'm not sure he could get a splash HC now.  In order to pull anyone who is worth it, they'd probably have to give them GM control as well.  That would be a way to get rid of Allen I guess but I don't see how that happens.   My opinion was that they would try and sell O'Connell as the next McVay and sooner then later.  Now, I don't think he is ready just yet.  Probably better to have more experience first at the OC level.  It's possible they could pull from the college ranks, like Lincoln Riley from Ok. That would make sense. 

[SkinsFTW]

I don't really know about Gruden.

 

He doesn't adapt his offense to the players he has. He's never been able to conjure up a running game that consistently works. His teams perform as if they were doped up in the 2nd half. He has had 3 of the worst DC hires in NFL history.

 

But that us on offense and them on defense comment from Gruden has me thinking.

 

Maybe he's tried this whole time to be a team player because clearly nepotism got him this job.

 

What if he wasn't the one who chose the DCs and he's given a roster incompatible with what he wants to do?

 

What if he's been told that Callahan is going to run the running game (wouldn't be the first time the HC was handcuffed) and what if he's severely handicapped by Bruce and Dan's Dollar General approach to Free Agency

 

 

Combined with their inability to see value in holding their egos in check in order to trade their malcontents. While cheapskating on facilities and training staff. Who knows what else. Just all that we know is laughable.

 

Joe Gibbs had as bad a record here the 2nd time.

 

Shanahan was a joke here in 3 of 4 seasons, as I predicted.

 

Because everything feels like a complete cover up I'll go with history and what I know and blame Dan Snyder.

 

Jay Gruden gets an asterisk IMO. The asterisk is because this team is ran by chimpanzees.

 

[88Comrade2000]

You saw what Gruden was in 2016.  That 8-7-1 season showed you that at best, Gruden was mediocre.  He should've been fired then. Definitely, after going 7-9 in 2017. I don't give a **** about injuries. Good coaches can overcome injuries.

 

Jay can be here another 5 years and you will get the same mediocre result.  He has a ceiling.  This is year 6, he's plenty of time to field a good team and he has failed.  After 2019, it's time to move on from him.  Odds are strong,he makes the case to be gone by midseason. 

 

Yes, the team has 2 strikes against them: Dan and Bruce but in 2020 it will time to find a new coach.  Yes, the new coach could be the next Hue Jackson.  It's time to move on from the mediocrity of Jay.

 

Dan better be in charge of hiring the next coach.  Bruce had his shot with Jay and failed.  It's time for a big name again; so I think that's what Dan will do.  Look at the big names in college and the usual NFL suspects.  I think the only way Bruce is gone, is if the new coach makes it a condition of their acceptance of the job.

 

I'M ready for the next era that will end in 2023 or 2024 but it's time for the karmic echo of Norv Turner to end.

[skinzplay]

Yep, that one year we sneaked into the playoffs because the rest of the NFC East absolutely STUNK is nothing to highlight on a resume. I get that a lot of people on here are high on Gruden's abilities as a play designer. I don't disagree with that at all. But there's a difference between designing plays and coming up with a gameplan, as opposed to leading an entire team (offense, defense, teams, coaches), knowing how and when to adjust when your gameplan isn't working, and knowing how to best utilize the talent at your disposal. I think Gruden is lacking in all of the latter qualities. He would do well as an OC for a team that has a strong HC who stands on the sideline with a shotgun or baseball bat and encourages running the ball, but not 60% of the time on first down.

 

Also agreed that, even with his shortcomings, Gruden has been hamstrung by the meddling of the team president, who wouldn't know how to run a team even if he had a father who was a legendary football coach. Oh wait! Anyway, the FO hasn't helped Gruden's cause at all by signing FAs who don't fit with the kind of offense Gruden wants to run, or by perhaps limiting his ability to hire coaches that fit the vision for his overall approach. It's ridiculous.

 

So to the theme of the thread, I agree completely. We've seen the best we're ever gonna get with these coaches. Let's hope we can get somebody in there (and a certain somebody outta there) to turn this thing around. We have an incredibly talented and YOUNG roster now. It would be a damn shame to squander it.

[SonnySideUp]

I don't listen to Gruden's post game press conferences any more since I already know what he's going to say:

 

- “we won’t know the extent of player xxx’s injuries until after the MRI tomorrow”

- “we just didn’t play well enough to win today”

- “I don’t know. I have to look at the films first”

- “We have to play better next time”

- “We can’t dwell on this game. We just have to learn from it and get ready for xxxx next week.”