WP: Scott Van Pelt on the Redskins: ‘Is anyone at Redskins Park listening?’

[Hooterman]

On 1/1/2019 at 1:13 PM, spjunkies said:

 

If anything the players are underpaid compared to bow much the owners collect off of them.

 

Sheesh, sounds like a players argument.  The owners made a monetary investment in their team and infrastructure.  The players did not.  Owners earn the ROI on the team and pay their employees a market rate, including the players.  The owners don't "collect off the players", they earn revenue from the operations of a football team.  This is a business after all, just like your local McDonalds.  

[The Sisko]

2 hours ago, Redskinscub said:

Would this have been on the air if we were 11-5 and in the playoffs? I don't think so. 

 

Of course not. Everyone would be outside with their eyes to the sky, watching pigs fly.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, The Sisko said:

 

Of course not. Everyone would be outside with their eyes to the sky, watching pigs fly.

 

Yep because why wouldn't we believe 11-5?

 

 

 

[spjunkies]

5 minutes ago, Hooterman said:

 

Sheesh, sounds like a players argument.  The owners made a monetary investment in their team and infrastructure.  The players did not.  Owners earn the ROI on the team and pay their employees a market rate, including the players.  The owners don't "collect off the players", they earn revenue from the operations of a football team.  This is a business after all, just like your local McDonalds.  

 

Yeah, no there would be no profits without players. This isn't comparable to McDonald's, someone has a CHOICE of which location they wish to work at while NFL players are "drafted" to a location. You will never catch me crying for players, but the owners get off easy in the NFL compared to other sports like the NBA and MLB. That's the unions fault, I guess. 

[thebluefood]

25 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

Eventually as it happens in all of sports, at every level, coaches, players and executives will be judged by their ability or inability to win, their wins and losses. Eventually. But, if you have culture, if you have morals, you're given a certain amount of goodwill currency. 

Loved your post and wanted to quote this in particular. 

 

The thing that confuses me about that group is why they do it. Why do they feel the need to make these ridiculous and transparently poor arguments? What do they believe they'll gain from it? Do they think they'll be rewarded by the organization? Do they think attacks on the front office and the organization are attacks on their person? I know at one point I felt that way to some degree - the team has been so deeply intertwined with the D.C. area that critiques of it are critiques on my hometown but I knew well enough - eve as a teenager - that both had real, glaring flaws that must be addressed and it seems most fans understand that, too. For all the flack Dan Snyder and the team's FO gets, none is as scathing as that from the fanbase and the region. 

 

So, like: what's up? Why go to these lengths to defend all this? What do you have to gain in any way? This is a multi-billion dollar operation that does not know and does not care that you, as an individual, exists. 

[HouseBowlrz]

7 hours ago, crabbypatty said:

I'll probably be dead long before Dan dies or sells the team.. and I'm 43.

 

I've been saying the same thing for some time now and I'm a dime ahead of you.  🤣

[Hooterman]

16 minutes ago, spjunkies said:

 

Yeah, no there would be no profits without players. This isn't comparable to McDonald's, someone has a CHOICE of which location they wish to work at while NFL players are "drafted" to a location. You will never catch me crying for players, but the owners get off easy in the NFL compared to other sports like the NBA and MLB. That's the unions fault, I guess. 

 

That is true, they do get drafted to go to a specific team.  And they get paid a specific amount of money that was collectively bargained and both sides agreed to (hence your union comment-absolutely true).  But they do then get to choose which team they go to (at least to a degree) once their initial contract is up and they enter free agency.  

 

I guess my real point is that while I hate Dan's ownership record with the 'skins, I also hate it when fans and players infer that owners are making too much money, players should make more, etc.  The owners deserve to make as much as they can from their investment.  And Dan deserves to lose his shirt, pants, and undergarments based on his lousy ownership record.  

[Hooterman]

45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yep because why wouldn't we believe 11-5?

 

 

 

 

Wow, that tweet by Boswell is depressing...

[Redskinscub]

2 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

With all due respect you can rephrase it all you want. We get the point you are trying to make we just completely disagree. Look at when the team was 10-6 in 2012 and see what local and national media was talking about - yes there were some nice things said about Robert and the team but the nagging history of the team was not just wiped away and forgotten. There was still a lot Redskins bashing done both locally and nationally. 

 

I will finish with this - if Ws is all that matters, then I guess an 11-5 season can make you feel Ok about the team. But anyone with morals and a conscience will not be satisfied with a few wins. They will want to see a cultural change in the organization. 

My opinion is the story goes away with a winning season. May not go away forever, but temporarily.  

 

I hope there is a culture change in the front office soon. I do think Dan means well and truly wants a winning team, and in his mind he probably feels he is doing the right things. The record and events since he bought the team show otherwise.

 

I don't remember posting that I would be satisfied with with a few wins and that would make me feel ok about the team. I entered the response for discussion, not for a heated argument which so many of these posts lead to.  

[wunderhill]

6 minutes ago, Redskinscub said:

My opinion is the story goes away with a winning season. May not go away forever, but temporarily.  

 

I hope there is a culture change in the front office soon. I do think Dan means well and truly wants a winning team, and in his mind he probably feels he is doing the right things. The record and events since he bought the team show otherwise.

 

I don't remember posting that I would be satisfied with with a few wins and that would make me feel ok about the team. I entered the response for discussion, not for a heated argument which so many of these posts lead to.  

at this point I think most believe (myself included) if the organization had multiple years of winning records it would have to be from cheating or something like that, because there's no way in hell this FO setup is going to achieve that doing it legit.

[skinny21]

To those saying it’s not about winning (or the lack thereof), where was the tipping point for you guys?  

 

I’m asking because from what I’ve seen generally (in terms of fan response), the ‘tipping point’ was not stadium related, signing Rueben Foster, or any of the like.  It was more related to how the back end of the season played out.  Losing big to the Giants and getting shut out by the Eagles being the exclamations on the whole deal.  Or maybe I have that wrong.  Maybe it was about Swearinger’s message and subsequent release.  

 

Now, to be fair, apathy, decreased attendance, fans booing, etc. started before our losing streak.  Harder for me to guess what exactly started that - because I can come up with a myriad of reasons, and in reality, it probably stemmed from a combination of many of those.

 

For me personally (in case anyone was wondering, it started when we franchised our last qb but didn’t replace his two lost receivers.  I was able to get past that because, well... the FO was in a tough spot (in terms of Jackson and Garçon), and I could why they hoped Doctson and Pryor would work out.  

 

The botched negotiations were a damper for me though.  Felt like we needed to add the NT we’ve all been clamoring for and boost the run game.  We finally do both of those things, but only after letting our homegrown qb walk.  Just felt like a slap in the face.  Like Allen was driven more by his ego than wanting to field a good team.

 

Also, after they let the qb walk, we traded away a player I was really excited about to bring in a qb I was indifferent to.  The contract was also terrible, IMO.  

 

All through that time, and carrying forward to now, we kept hearing tidbits about how reviled Allen was.  The picture became clearer and clearer.  

 

I was up and down on the Smith-led offense.  Didn’t blame him personally - the fit wasn’t quite there, nor were the weapons.  A defense and run game that we’re so up and down meant they really were not that good.  Certainly not good enough to carry the team with any real consistency.  And yet... we were winning.  Maybe if the team, particularly the above play improved as the season wore on, maybe we could do some good things in the long run.  Maybe we could build on this going forward.  

 

Then came the injuries.  I was willing to excuse much of what followed - bad losses, close losses, etc.  But defense started getting exposed regularly.  I recently looked back on a thread I’d started last year - The State of the Roster - and it was depressing to see how many of us thought our ILBs were pretty set.  

 

After the Swearinger Event, suddenly we were looking at needing new safeties for next year, on top of ILB, G, oline depth, wr, and a freakin’ qb... and that’s not including replacements for Norman and Reed.  Next year’s outlook began to look really poor.  Tied up in the Swearinger Event was the comment about lax practices.  Suddenly, maybe Gruden was more of a problem than I’d originally thought.  Cutting Swearinger was also a case of more bad optics, something the team seemingly just can’t resist.  

 

As the last month (plus) of the season played out, we went from the division lead to literally letting 2(!) of our rivals into the playoffs, including a shutout.  

 

In short, poor prospects for next year, the bungling of our FO, and the idea they (Allen) might retain power really sunk my fandom to unseen lows.  

 

For me (although my first question might have belied this notion), the tipping point was not about losing.  Embarrassing, yes, but I expected it once Sanchez made an appearance. The idea that Allen might not be shown the door, the fact that the NFL saw him as a joke, the disconnect between the FO and fans... those were pretty much the last straws for me.  

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, Redskinscub said:

My opinion is the story goes away with a winning season. May not go away forever, but temporarily.  

 

I hope there is a culture change in the front office soon. I do think Dan means well and truly wants a winning team, and in his mind he probably feels he is doing the right things. The record and events since he bought the team show otherwise.

 

I don't remember posting that I would be satisfied with with a few wins and that would make me feel ok about the team. I entered the response for discussion, not for a heated argument which so many of these posts lead to.  

 

Not sure how you see this as a heated argument - unless you are referring to other responses. But since you addressed it in a response to me I have to assume you think I am being "heated". I was very specific to not be terse or hateful but instead provide tangible examples and actual facts to support my position. If you see that as heated, I think that is more on you than me. This is anything but a heated argument - at least from my end. 

 

On to the comment itself - I am very well aware of what your opinion is. I have seen it 1000s of times - and even had that same opinion myself about 10 yrs ago. I also agree Dan has convinced himself he means well - I do believe he has convinced himself that he is just doing what he can to win. The problem is his actions over the last 20+ years are that of a self aggrandizing, classless narcissist completely out of his depth on how to run an NFL team. He makes the same stupid, hateful and classless mistakes over and over and over again. 

 

Again, as I stated before it's not just a few mistakes. And honestly if he were just bumbling but outside of poor football decisions treated people right, both inside and out of the organization, it would be different. But he has shown - or allowed the organization to be spiteful, scapegoating others to try and protect themselves, treat people with a total lack of human respect, and create what has been reported more than just a few times, a very toxic work environment. 

 

No, a winning season or even two will not make the pain go away of what dan snyder has done to this franchise. Yes, a few 100,000's of bandwagon fans will go along for the ride while they win but as soon as they stop they will disappear. This fan-base used to be one of the most loyal in the NFL. Dan Snyder has ruined that for many of us. I have been a fan since 1968. I looked forward to football Sunday like it was new fantastic adventure each week. Now, I am just numb. I just can't fully support a team that does that kind of trashy things this team does. 

 

If they want to make changes - start with unloading Rueben Foster, fire Bruce Allen and hire a legitimate team president who is free to hire their own GM who together they hire their own HC. Fix the facilities, especially the work out facilities. Then reconnect with the former players - not as employees but as the honored veterans of what this tam was when it had class. Unfortunately Dan does not see anything wrong with forcing ex-players to prostitute themselves to come to games. He does not see anything wrong with picking fights with local media and then hiding like a coward to let others take the beatings. He does not see anything wrong with having a slimy used car salesman as the team president, who BTW has been massively unsuccessful at two other teams. 

 

I mean this honestly, I am glad for you that you do not see this team the same way. That you see a basically decent owner that just had some tough breaks. That with a few winning seasons much of the discontent with him and the team will go away. You are certainly more than entitled to that opinion - and again I am happy for you that you can see it that way. 

 

I just do not see it that way at all and I am anything but alone. It's more than Ws. It's the lack of class the team shows every time it gets the chance. It's managing time and again to make the worst possible decision and then try to sell it as a genius move to the fans and expect us to believe it. Sorry, it will take more than a winning season or even a few in a row to get me back to where i was before Dan bought the team. 

[skinsfan35yrs.]

Alls I can say is and I hope Dan is listening, I have been a Washington Redskins fan for 47 years. I have endured alot being a fan traveling into opponents territory, having food and drink thrown at me and once even getting jumped and ended up with broken ribs. I have spent thousands of dollars on this team but I am slowly becoming a Houston Texans fan. I call them my step team. My daughter, son in law and their 6 kids are Texan fans. They know I am Redskins fan but I cut them off as to giving me anything Redskins So this year I got 2 Texan caps,  Watsons jersey and a Texan coffee mug. And I just bought tickets to my first ever playoff game. Sad its not a Redskins game but hey its football

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, skinsfan35yrs. said:

Alls I can say is and I hope Dan is listening, I am slowly becoming a Houston Texans fan. My daughter, son in law and their 6 kids are Texan fans. They know I am Redskins fan but I cut them off as to giving me anything Redskins So this year I got 2 Texan caps,  Watsons jersey and a Texan coffee mug. And I just bought tickets to my first ever playoff game. Sad its not a Redskins game but hey its football

Nice, filing the divorce papers and taking out a hot chick the very same day.

 

Im currently miserable but staying together for the sake of the household.

[Redskinscub]

38 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Not sure how you see this as a heated argument - unless you are referring to other responses. But since you addressed it in a response to me I have to assume you think I am being "heated". I was very specific to not be terse or hateful but instead provide tangible examples and actual facts to support my position. If you see that as heated, I think that is more on you than me. This is anything but a heated argument - at least from my end. 

 

On to the comment itself - I am very well aware of what your opinion is. I have seen it 1000s of times - and even had that same opinion myself about 10 yrs ago. I also agree Dan has convinced himself he means well - I do believe he has convinced himself that he is just doing what he can to win. The problem is his actions over the last 20+ years are that of a self aggrandizing, classless narcissist completely out of his depth on how to run an NFL team. He makes the same stupid, hateful and classless mistakes over and over and over again. 

 

Again, as I stated before it's not just a few mistakes. And honestly if he were just bumbling but outside of poor football decisions treated people right, both inside and out of the organization, it would be different. But he has shown - or allowed the organization to be spiteful, scapegoating others to try and protect themselves, treat people with a total lack of human respect, and create what has been reported more than just a few times, a very toxic work environment. 

 

No, a winning season or even two will not make the pain go away of what dan snyder has done to this franchise. Yes, a few 100,000's of bandwagon fans will go along for the ride while they win but as soon as they stop they will disappear. This fan-base used to be one of the most loyal in the NFL. Dan Snyder has ruined that for many of us. I have been a fan since 1968. I looked forward to football Sunday like it was new fantastic adventure each week. Now, I am just numb. I just can't fully support a team that does that kind of trashy things this team does. 

 

If they want to make changes - start with unloading Rueben Foster, fire Bruce Allen and hire a legitimate team president who is free to hire their own GM who together they hire their own HC. Fix the facilities, especially the work out facilities. Then reconnect with the former players - not as employees but as the honored veterans of what this tam was when it had class. Unfortunately Dan does not see anything wrong with forcing ex-players to prostitute themselves to come to games. He does not see anything wrong with picking fights with local media and then hiding like a coward to let others take the beatings. He does not see anything wrong with having a slimy used car salesman as the team president, who BTW has been massively unsuccessful at two other teams. 

 

I mean this honestly, I am glad for you that you do not see this team the same way. That you see a basically decent owner that just had some tough breaks. That with a few winning seasons much of the discontent with him and the team will go away. You are certainly more than entitled to that opinion - and again I am happy for you that you can see it that way. 

 

I just do not see it that way at all and I am anything but alone. It's more than Ws. It's the lack of class the team shows every time it gets the chance. It's managing time and again to make the worst possible decision and then try to sell it as a genius move to the fans and expect us to believe it. Sorry, it will take more than a winning season or even a few in a row to get me back to where i was before Dan bought the team. 

 

You make some good points, maybe we should draft a group letter to Dan. I have been a fan of the Skins since 71 so good to talk to another long time follower.

 

I should have been more clear, even though many posts lead to heated arguments, I was not implying this was one. 

 

A few wins and that would not make me personally feel ok about the team, glad that is clear. But it would probably eliminate some or all of the negative columns and articles that have come out (and there will be plenty more to come). Journalists love to kick teams when they are down.  

 

I hope Dan has the sense to benchmark some good teams or invent a new strategy that works better. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

To those saying it’s not about winning (or the lack thereof), where was the tipping point for you guys?  

 

For me it was the press release that Bruce read in July 2017 about our QB at the time.  It was hard to forget, I was on vacation in Killarney, Ireland, I read it on twitter just before dinner.  I had to have a few pints after reading it.  I was incredulous about the pettiness and stupidity of it regardless of how people feel about the QB.   That was the last straw for me with Bruce.  Saw things leading up to it and reports that the dude was a major power hungry jerk and not the most competent dude but that was it for me after that.  I see him now as a power hungry, insecure, dense, incompetent.  Worst GM in the league.  

 

As for Dan its been a slow burn but a much longer run of distaste for me than what I have for Bruce.  i was completely done with him pre Shanny.  But I thought he got it together with Shanny until I learned different stories after he left.   My position has evolved on Dan -- I used to see him as an interfering, emotional, jerk, ego maniac with a dose of incompetence.  I now see him as a less interfering but still a hot mess by setting a bad culture and being very incompetent, mega high strung, still a jerk and a strange-borderline social misfit who is desperate for pals at Redskins Park.  Worst owner in the league.

 

My degree of anger at both was already high before the season at about an 85 out of 100.  Right now its at a boiling point, its right at 100. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

National article, yahoo sports

 

 

 

This is a team facing huge challenges: what to do at quarterback, whether to keep the coaching staff, how to stem the steady flow of departing fans, and where to put a new stadium. What got the team into this crisis isn’t going to get them out of it.

Daniel Snyder is 54 years old. He’ll own this team for many decades to come, and he’ll make millions doing so. But unless substantial change — change that appears so unlikely as to be impossible — comes to the Washington Redskins, Snyder’s going to be reigning over a vast, desolate empire where the only joy will come from other teams celebrating.

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/everybody-hates-redskins-nobodys-even-trying-hide-anymore-202908562.html?src=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

*anxiously awaiting the dissection of Busbee’s article 

[NoVaSkins21]

I don't know if it has already been mentioned, but Snyder brought Gibbs to the game on Sunday.  I hope Snyder's eyes were opened or at least opened for him by Gibbs due to what he saw in the stands

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

*anxiously awaiting the dissection of Busbee’s article 

 

All the inaccuracies in it, where do we begin? For starters do we really know for sure for example Dan is 54 years old? 😀

[RemoveSnyder]

8 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Looks like Dan-Bruce might have one of their "special" I presume nostalgic moves cooking up.

 

And that's just the problem. Dan thinks he's one move away from making everything disappear. That he can shock and awe the fans back into obedience. 

 

Hell, I'll toss out some whoopers: Urban Meyer as Head Coach. Gregggggg Williams as DC. Martin Mayhew as GM. Doug as HBCU Director of scouting / special assistant to the GM. Tony Dungy as Head of Football Operations. Ozzie Newsome as Senior Front Office advisor. Schaffer as President of Business Operations. Red Cashion as Team's personal referee. Lieutenant Worf as Strength and Conditioning coach. 

 

All that **** combined. 

Team then moves up to get Haskins as QB. 

 

Boom, There you go. Shock and awe. 

 

 

*(but as long as Dan and Bruce were still there, they'd **** it up).

[RemoveSnyder]

8 hours ago, thebluefood said:

The thing that confuses me about that group is why they do it.

 

Someone touched on it earlier, I remember from previous reading. Called it the "groupies." 

 

There are a handful of prominent board members who would fall into the groupie category. Special access program card holders. Folks that get special treatment of some degree. Small group relatively speaking represented here on ES compared to the masses, but, they were the ones standing in the balcony at the bar in London. Send off and welcome back parties, get freebies, get status. Then act according. 

 

That could apply only to a handful. The rest, IDK. Certainly would not apply to throngs of people. Some element of contrarianism for another segment. 

[abdcskins]

"It's easier to stop caring and move on."

 

I am torn about this comment (from a lifelong Redskins season ticket holder in the SVP piece). On one hand I get it. When I was a kid growing up in DC all I cared about was sports. I was born in 1982 so I'm just old enough to remember the greatness of those Joe Gibbs teams, particularly the 1991 championship. As I got older the team got worse and worse, I moved to California, and got heavily involved in fantasy football and wagering, which invariably takes your attention away from just the Redskins game. But I still never missed a game. I faithfully went to the sports bar every Sunday in college and into adulthood. I still do (in the seasons I never had the package).

 

I would argue that if you stop caring then you aren't a real fan. In reference to the horrendous fan attendance at home games, I would argue that is a more financial and practical decision not to attend rather than a "not caring" decision. One can enjoy watching a football game from home just as much as at  the stadium, if not more.

 

In the end it is going to take serious changes to get people excited about the team. Cuz that's what attendance reflects, fans' excitement about the team. Did anyone going into this season expecting great things? No. And it will be the same next year. 

[c slag]

At this point if attendance continues to drop I would just use the new soccer stadium United plays in and rent 10 dates from them

Be cheaper than a new stadium 

And you could possibly fill it with only Redskins fans 

[dyst]

I can’t pinpoint one exact moment when apathy set in for me but I have a general period.

 

It wasn’t during the Norv years. Still had hope then. The Marty year was a blur so I can’t say that did it. Spurrier, is sort of when my alarm bells started going off. Something just didn’t feel right. Yet I still got excited every week.

 

Gibbs’ return was exciting. Sure we kinda sucked and it didn’t go as planned but making the playoffs twice was great. Oh and we had Sean Taylor a guy we could get excited about.

 

What really tipped me over the edge into a pessimist was the Zorn years. That is when it started for me. Snyder seemed to go from a meddling owner to one that lies to fans and he seemed even more out of touch.

 

The Eagles games when we got romped, the Steelers game when they owned most of the stadium. As a fan you could see. We went from a bad team that was respected to a bad team that became a joke.

 

Got a glimmer of hope with RG3, but this team under Snyder like everything else royally ****ed that up. I Basically gave up after that. The joy was gone despite Kirk playing well and us making the playoffs. I was pessimistic after the RG3 fiasco that we’d ever amount to anything.