Racism in America.... Is it worse now after the 2016 election?

[Forehead]

1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

the problem is they haven't changed, they just aren't saying it in the open anymore. Instead, everything is policy changes. Fox News is a racist network but you will never hear them say anything overtly racist, but they play up dog whistles. Everything is institutionalized and racist language have been adjusted to fit the mainstream. 

 

Part of my problem here is not reading the "five new entries" thing that pops up before I hit post.  Then I would have seen the OP being changed from 50 years ago to 15, and your post about not wanting to hear the usual fallback answers.  Unfortunately, anytime someone says 50-60 years ago, the first things that come to mind are things like separate fountains/entrances, etc...and hate crimes like lynchings.

 

We have a bad person in charge and a lot of older, out of touch folks in Congress who secretly pine for "the old days" and need to be cleared out.  Unfortunately they have a lot of sway over policy.  Hopefully that starts to changs in November.

 

I think my larger point remains true though.  I'm seeing the angry response to racism become much more united, which I think is a positive step.

 

And this time, I was smart enough to click show replies and see what Justice wrote.  Since 2016, no doubt it has gotten worse.

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 minutes ago, Forehead said:

 

Part of my problem here is not reading the "five new entries" thing that pops up before I hit post.  Then I would have seen the OP being changed from 50 years ago to 15, and your post about not wanting to hear the usual fallback answers.  Unfortunately, anytime someone says 50-60 years ago, the first things that come to mind are things like separate fountains/entrances, etc...and hate crimes like lynchings.

 

We have a bad person in charge and a lot of older, out of touch folks in Congress who secretly pine for "the old days" and need to be cleared out.  Unfortunately they have a lot of sway over policy.  Hopefully that starts to changs in November.

 

I think my larger point remains true though.  I'm seeing the angry response to racism become much more united, which I think is a positive step.

 

And this time, I was smart enough to click show replies and see what Justice wrote.  Since 2016, no doubt it has gotten worse.

I don't think its gotten worse since 2016 though.

 

I think a better barometer would be since 2008. 

 

But more than just clearing out congress, it is institutional. It is who gets good loans for their houses and who don't. It's the educational system. It is many things. FFS, white supremacists call themselves the Alt-Right now. They have smartly rebranded their movement. You will not hear Richard Spencer call anyone an n-word, but he is quite clearly a racist.

[Spaceman Spiff]

16 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I actually agree with that. 

 

Although he got shook because of his comments on Trayvon Martin and the right-wing media backlash that came from that.

 

Trump is the representation of post-civil rights backlash in America.

 

 

 

Holy **** we agree.

 

The thing that pissed me off about Obama getting shook like that is that he wasn't wrong.  

 

Obama's biggest strength, IMO, was his grace and his ability to communicate.  He should have politely told everyone to shut the **** up and that he wasn't wrong.  Should have put up more of a fight.  

[Bozo the kKklown]

3 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

He should have politely told everyone to shut the **** up and that he wasn't wrong.  Should have put up more of a fight.  

That was my biggest complaint of his presidency. He started flexing more his last two years but it was too late. (other complaints include deportation and the drone wars)

[justice98]

8 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

But more than just clearing out congress, it is institutional. It is who gets good loans for their houses and who don't. It's the educational system. It is many things. 

 

This is really the crux of it to me.  I still dont think enough people appreciate this, how pervasive and damaging institutional racism has been for decades.  And then when you try to do something about it, people complain about stuff like affirmative action.

Edited August 31, 2018 by justice98

[mistertim]

38 minutes ago, brandymac27 said:

Look, I live in the south. I see it and hear it everyday. Not to mention all the crap that we all see and read about in the news. 

 

Example: just the other day I went to my best friend's ( who's black) daughter's ballet recital. I went with my friend and her daughter, and the parents and friends of parents were all supposed to get front row seats in the auditorium. Now my friend's daughter was 1 of 2 black girls dancing out of a class of 33. When we walked to our seats in the front row, we were berated by a lady who kept telling us we needed to sit in the back just like we should sit in the back of the bus that we rode in on ( even though we both drove, and my friend dives a very nice car). 

 

Point is, **** like this happens a LOT.

 

Gotta be honest here...while I certainly believe you, we all know that anecdotal evidence isn't reliable when you're talking about trying to get an actual scientific measure of something.

 

1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

the problem is they haven't changed, they just aren't saying it in the open anymore. Instead, everything is policy changes. Fox News is a racist network but you will never hear them say anything overtly racist, but they play up dog whistles. Everything is institutionalized and racist language have been adjusted to fit the mainstream. 

 

I think this is a good point. The racism (institutional, policy, and individual) of today is, generally, much less overt than it was in the past. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there are less people or institutions that are racist, or that the goal of many policies isn't as racist as in the past...just that the racism has been made more "palatable" and is couched in linguistic trickery and dog whistles (though now they're more like dog bullhorns). It changed from "Stop letting coloreds vote" to "Why are you talking about race? We just want to preserve the integrity of the voting process <trollface>". And there are plenty of other examples. It sort of reminds me of the creationist vs. intelligent design thing; they basically just repackaged it, but they're selling the same ****. 

 

IMO another consequence of this is that there are probably quite a number of people who have racist views, support racist policies, racist candidates etc but who believe they aren't actually racists because they use those dog whistles and their own internal excuse processes as a balm. That alone would make it really hard to get any sort of true scientific measure of how much of the US population is actually racist or whether racism is "worse" now than it was x number of years ago. I'm sure there are some who may look at that and conclude that this means the racism isn't as bad as in years past but I think that's a distinction without a difference as the underlying goals and beliefs are the same.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I have a couple thoughts on this...not sure what they mean or how to present them...they are just thoughts: 

 

1) In some weird way, I almost prefer the more open and "hateful" racism. I mean, it's ugly and awful, but it's transparent and something that can be taken at face value. I'm not saying that I respect the ignorance or anything, but if I was on the receiving end, I'd rather be able to know what I'm fighting rather than deal with a pleasant smile and someone undermining me behind my back. It's weird, I know. 

 

2) Someone earlier brought up a good point...in this country more than EVER IN OUR HISTORY, we interact with people from all over the world, with different views on religion, sexual orientation, etc. I know this isn't a general tolerance thread and is focusing on racism, but there are so many more people comfortable with coming out as gay or transgender - that has to mean this is a more accepting climate for that than we've seen previously. 

 

Now here's my overall opinion - If somehow there was an easy way to measure this year by year...my best guess is that there are far fewer racist people today than in the past. I do think the ones that remain are bolder due to the president. I also believe the events that happen are reported on more often than they were several years ago. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

IMO another consequence of this is that there are probably quite a number of people who have racist views, support racist policies, racist candidates etc but who believe they aren't actually racists because they use those dog whistles and their own internal excuse processes as a balm. That alone would make it really hard to get any sort of true scientific measure of how much of the US population is actually racist or whether racism is "worse" now than it was x number of years ago. I'm sure there are some who may look at that and conclude that this means the racism isn't as bad as in years past but I think that's a distinction without a difference as the underlying goals and beliefs are the same.

In one great paragraph, you have made the argument that I have bluntly tried to do for a while on this forum. The deception has become so pervasive the last decade that legitimate racists do not think they are because they are not attending lynchings, aren't saying the N-word, aren't asking for segregation, spitting on people of different races.

 

Instead, they want state's rights, voter ID laws, close poll stations in majority-non-white areas, and get upset because troublemakers children are their schools -- who happen to not be white. It is extremely racist but because they aren't using the language, they feel strong.

[mcsluggo]

12 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Holy **** we agree.

 

The thing that pissed me off about Obama getting shook like that is that he wasn't wrong.  

 

Obama's biggest strength, IMO, was his grace and his ability to communicate.  He should have politely told everyone to shut the **** up and that he wasn't wrong.  Should have put up more of a fight.  

 

i think Obama (correctly) recognized that he was NOT the right person to lead the discussion on racism in America.   He (correctly) recognized that any thing HE said (as a black man) would get blown out of context to a ridiculous degree, and he would be accused of only caring about "his" people.   He went out of his way to remain somewhat aloof on that concept so that the world could see he was the President of the USA... but he STILL got pilloried by scared racists (closeted or otherwise) for only caring about race.     Nixon was the President that able to open relations with China (can you imagine if a liberal had try to do that?).   Clinton was the President that was able to bring welfare reform (for better or for worse...  )    

 

Some backlash following his Presidency was inevitable, and it led to Donald ****ing Trump... i can't imagine what the pendulum swing would've looked like if he actually HAD governed the way those that hated his Presidency wholeheartedly believe he DID act... 

[grego]

31 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Gotta be honest here...while I certainly believe you, we all know that anecdotal evidence isn't reliable when you're talking about trying to get an actual scientific measure of something.

 

 

I think this is a good point. The racism (institutional, policy, and individual) of today is, generally, much less overt than it was in the past. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there are less people or institutions that are racist, or that the goal of many policies isn't as racist as in the past...just that the racism has been made more "palatable" and is couched in linguistic trickery and dog whistles (though now they're more like dog bullhorns). It changed from "Stop letting coloreds vote" to "Why are you talking about race? We just want to preserve the integrity of the voting process <trollface>". And there are plenty of other examples. It sort of reminds me of the creationist vs. intelligent design thing; they basically just repackaged it, but they're selling the same ****. 

 

IMO another consequence of this is that there are probably quite a number of people who have racist views, support racist policies, racist candidates etc but who believe they aren't actually racists because they use those dog whistles and their own internal excuse processes as a balm. That alone would make it really hard to get any sort of true scientific measure of how much of the US population is actually racist or whether racism is "worse" now than it was x number of years ago. I'm sure there are some who may look at that and conclude that this means the racism isn't as bad as in years past but I think that's a distinction without a difference as the underlying goals and beliefs are the same.

 

 

you dont think peoples attitudes about race are different, they are just talking about it differently? did i get that right? if so, i would disagree. 

 

Quote

Long-term trends, meanwhile, suggest a decline in both professed racist views and racist acts. On a range of survey measures including reported discomfort about living next to someone of a different race, or opposition to inter-racial marriage, Americans appear far less racist than in the past. Only 4% of Americans supported inter-racial marriage in 1958. By 1997 that was 50%; today it is 87%. Inter-racial marriages climbed from 7 to 15 percent of all marriages between 1980 and 2010.

https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2017/09/01/racist-behaviour-is-declining-in-america

Quote

And it isn’t just the US: the World Values Survey has data on the question about being uncomfortable living next to neighbors of a different race for 29 countries—home to 60% of the planet’s population, covering two waves of the survey—1999 to 2004 and 2010 to 2014. Progress is far from universal: sixteen countries have seen a decline in racism on this measure; in one country, attitudes remained unchanged; and in twelve (seven of them in Europe), attitudes have become worse. But the data suggests that about 23% of the world would have reported discomfort living next to someone of a different race in the early 2000s compared to 17% in the early 2010s. In India, for example, 42% of respondents reported they wouldn’t want to live next door to someone of a different race fifteen years ago, that has dropped to 26% more recently. In Argentina, fewer than 1% display racism on this measure.

Improving attitudes worldwide are reflected in a changed legal environment: the political scientists Victor Asal and Amy Pate studied laws affecting ethnic minorities in 124 countries between 1950 and 2003. Over that time, the proportion of countries with policies discriminating against ethnic minorities fell from 44% to 19%, while the proportion with policies favoring minorities increased from 7% to 25%

 

.https://qz.com/983016/the-data-are-in-young-people-are-definitely-less-racist-than-old-people/

 

[Fergasun]

Exposed is what I would say, maybe empowered?

 

For sure I thought white America would see Donald Trump for the blatantly racist person that he was.  Instead, white America embraced him and he has amped the racism to another level (every immigrant is MS13).

 

I live in California, and last summer when  I visited the east coast and had a discussion with some old friends they shrugged their shoulders and acted "Meh".  Things are probably gradually getting better, but honestly I would probably have lapped up the same rhetoric and acted like it was "policy preferences".

 

I think people still treat racism for "policy preference" -- when I look at the House GOP, that is what I see.  Like the poster above mentioned, ignoring the systemic racism that has already set minorities back compared to white people. 

 

Not trying to go all "check your privledge"... but in hindsight I see a lot of anti Obama "I only don't like his policy" as a blanket covering racism.

[Renegade7]

It's hard to measure stuff like hate crime statistics because so many jurisdictions don't keep track of the numbers.  So we're left with articles saying it's going up because we can't prove it's not:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/05/11/hate-crime-rates-are-still-on-the-rise/

 

I don't think people are more racist, I think they are more open about their views and everyone has a platform to let that be known now with the Internet.  It's the results from this new reality (which I prefer so we're all on some page that we are dealing with) that make the difference.  

 

Charlottesville was tough to watch, then only 20 people showed up in DC.  Florida just nominated their first black male democratic candidate for governor.  I always judge racism in the context of stopping us from achieving our goals, not the words that come out of their mouth. 

 

@BenningRoadSkin is right that the policies are what's really in the way, and in my opinion only thing we really have any control over besides ourselves as individuals. You can't end racism, but can limit it's effects on our institutions.  In that regard, I'm mixed on whether racism has gotten worse, GOP is trying harder to supress minority votes, but there's more push back on that now, like that county that stopped closing on 7 of 9 polling stations.

 

Btw, this does feel like another backdoor Trump thread.  If we gonna do this, there should be a poll to help with the discussion.

[Spaceman Spiff]

35 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

 

i think Obama (correctly) recognized that he was NOT the right person to lead the discussion on racism in America.   He (correctly) recognized that any thing HE said (as a black man) would get blown out of context to a ridiculous degree, and he would be accused of only caring about "his" people.   He went out of his way to remain somewhat aloof on that concept so that the world could see he was the President of the USA... but he STILL got pilloried by scared racists (closeted or otherwise) for only caring about race.     Nixon was the President that able to open relations with China (can you imagine if a liberal had try to do that?).   Clinton was the President that was able to bring welfare reform (for better or for worse...  )    

 

Some backlash following his Presidency was inevitable, and it led to Donald ****ing Trump... i can't imagine what the pendulum swing would've looked like if he actually HAD governed the way those that hated his Presidency wholeheartedly believe he DID act... 

 

Nah, Obama should have been the guy.  Who else was gonna do it?  Who else is the right person to lead the discussion on racism in America?  There's no modern MLK.  No one wants to hear from Al Sharpton.  

 

Obama cared about all people, I believe.  In sticking up for his race he should have mentioned that he wasn't trying to put blacks ahead of whites or anyone else, he was simply making a statement for equality for everyone.  

 

Scared racists, closeted or otherwise are going to only care about race.  That's their problem, not his.  

[Chachie]

Racism is the same. We just have more people willing to admit it these days.

[Springfield]

People are probably just as racist as they were before 2016, but now they’re more open about it.

 

I’ve observed, in my lifetime on this planet, that Americans tend to emulate their president to an extent.  When Bill Clinton was president, blowjobs became the new way to be sexually active without losing your virginity.  When Bush 2 was President, “Merica” was born, basically the over-patriotic dumbassery.  When Obama was president, protests became very popular.  Now that we have Trump, racists are more open about their racism and internet trolls are encouraged.

 

Is anyone really surprised about that?

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

That was my biggest complaint of his presidency. He started flexing more his last two years but it was too late. (other complaints include deportation and the drone wars)

 

If Obama tried to be the first black president up front, it woulda been harder for him to appear as the POTUS for the whole country.  His legacy in the that regard was wasting the chance to go as far as he wanted his first year or two if he didn't try to reach out to GOP so much, but I felt it was important for him to say he tried so we don't have to now in 2018 and 2020. 

 

It remains to be seen if in these next two elections if he really did lose the battle but won the war in terms of which party had offical lost its mind versus appearing like the resistance, essentially setting up a permanent blue wave GOP can't recovery from without making wholesale changes that would benefit the country (like quiting their embargo on non-whites).

Edited August 31, 2018 by Renegade7

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

That was my biggest complaint of his presidency. He started flexing more his last two years but it was too late. (other complaints include deportation and the drone wars)

 

Well, you can flex more with two years to go and you don't have to worry about re-election.  IIRC Trayvon Martin happened in his first term, right? 

[The 12th Commandment]

I don't know to what extent it is throughout broader society but on the few message boards I frequent that have political discussions, and fairly even membership from both sides, the people with white nationalist light, "American" culture is being downtrodden by foreign hoards, type views are present and accounted for now when they were nowhere to be found 5 years ago.  I always wonder how many of them are Russian bots and hope it's a lot of them.

[mistertim]

I think Obama was in a bit of a tough spot. On one hand, being the first black POTUS, he definitely had a platform to lead wider discussions about race as well as to address institutional issues of race, etc. However I believe he knew that even though it wasn't his aim or intention, it would be perceived (and screamed about by plenty) as him being divisive and putting one group ahead of the other or not wanting to be president to all Americans, which I think he honestly wanted to be. He also knew that there was quite a bit of racially tinged animus towards him as a black man becoming president. IMO he underestimated the visceral nature of the right's opposition to him. It didn't make any difference what he did or said...they decided in advance that he was divisive and then went from there. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

27 minutes ago, Springfield said:

People are probably just as racist as they were before 2016, but now they’re more open about it.

 

I’ve observed, in my lifetime on this planet, that Americans tend to emulate their president to an extent.  When Bill Clinton was president, blowjobs became the new way to be sexually active without losing your virginity.  When Bush 2 was President, “Merica” was born, basically the over-patriotic dumbassery.  When Obama was president, protests became very popular.  Now that we have Trump, racists are more open about their racism and internet trolls are encouraged.

 

Is anyone really surprised about that?

 

Good call.

 

Glad we kept the blowjobs.  Could do without the rest.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

8 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Good call.

 

Glad we kept the blowjobs.  Could do without the rest.  

 

It's OK, you'll get married one day. 

[Jumbo]

one of the many tough parts of this topic's discussion are the voices that do not come off as 'racist' or sympathetic to white supremacy etc. but still take a rather regular beat of minimization, distraction, and various forms of "challenging" regarding the nature and extent of 'the problem" (they also will typically be caucasian, coincidentally)....much of the time there is at least some intellectual merit in the points that get offered for consideration by such voices, but for me that is juxtaposed against their far lesser import and value re: the topic, given the actual situation, vs. sticking to the heart of the matter...perhaps "prioritization" is my critique such as it is one...

 

right now, today, black people and brown people are still being routinely, sometimes fatally, discriminated against in a multitude of ways all over the land even though (yay)  lynchings are no longer a thing and they get to drink at the same fountains and pee in the same public toilets...the latter is cool and good even if it should never have been otherwise, and has zero to do with the resolving the former which is still a very big deal (cough)

 

not calling anyone out here, just noting the dynamic for thought...to me it's like doing triage over clients dying from late-stage opiate addiction and having a couple folks who consistently want to spend time/energy focusing on recovery/lifestyle matters better addressed much farther down the road...

 

btw, this is not to be confused with the shtick of the 'stealth brtiebarters' who join social media groups and just chew at the edges of debates on race, or other matters, with muddying and distracting dialogue, going from matter to matter, usually hard to pin down, but still appearing reasonable and open, as opposed to the more usual overtly confrontational style...talk about needing to get a life....but then if they had a decent life they wouldn't be on britebart so much

[Mr. Sinister]

2 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 It is who gets good loans for their houses and who don't. 

 

I directly know of someone who experienced this recently. Sad

Edited August 31, 2018 by Mr. Sinister

[Kilmer17]

Just now, Mr. Sinister said:

 

I directly know of someone who exexperienced this recently. Sad

I admit I don’t believe this still happens. I don’t see how it can.  Meaning race plays a factor in loan terms etc.  There are too many laws in place to prevent it 

 

 

[Renegade7]

You can only enforce change with measurable results.  Feelings aren't against the law.

Just now, Kilmer17 said:

I admit I don’t believe this still happens. I don’t see how it can.  Meaning race plays a factor in loan terms etc.  There are too many laws in place to prevent it 

 

 

This isn't getting the oversight it needs to be enforced, numbers don't lie on this one in regards to simolar resources and credit but different races and gender.  It's too consistent to ignore.