Racism in America.... Is it worse now after the 2016 election?

[JSSkinz]

14 hours ago, Destino said:

Brokers had to use a version of those as well

Its called Calyx Point and its a 3rd party software that's been around for 20+ years and is exclusively used by the broker community but it doesn't do what I explained in my earlier post, same concept but not near as powerful and it didn't have the accountability tied in to make sure if a 2 yr adj arm was sold and the client qualifies for a 30 year fixed that the client should only be offered the 30 year fixed program.

 

14 hours ago, Destino said:

There was garbage everywhere.  Countrywide comes immediately that mind.  

90% of what you heard in the media about Countrywide was bull****, Countrywide used "Clues" which was a software that did just as I explained.  You could not give an inferior loan to someone who received an uplift message without getting the DVP to sign off and that was never happening.  It did not happen unless fraud was committed.

 

Countrywide's problem was they bought too many loans from the wholesalers I mentioned earlier and they either didn't audit them correctly or the paper was fraudulently rated (its now common knowledge this was happening at that time).  30% of all branch files were audited on a monthly basis and once again you could not give an inferior loan to someone, the only way that could happen is if fraud was committed by the AE, BM, RVP, and DVP.

 

14 hours ago, Destino said:

Whatever bank you worked for approved those loans though right?

No, they were approved and funded by private banks, I listed a few names for you but there were about 10 or so major players at that time.  Those private banks funded loans with their own money(or warehouse line)and packaged the loans up and sold them to whoever would buy them.

 

Now Countrywide did fund many loans on their wholesale side which is their direct broker channel and they did a poor job of dealing with the fraud that was taking place.  The reality is they were dealing with so many brokers and they didn't hold them to the same standards as the loans that they were funding in-house by actual Countrywide employees.

 

Now Mozilo was a dirtbag no doubt and so were many of the executives who were at the very top of the Countrywide hierarchy, they poorly managed the way they purchased paper and it bit them in the ass.  I always argue with people over corporate america because Countrywide is a great example of how a few at the top made an entire organization look crooked and it just wasn't true, there were 1000's of great people who worked there and took the fall for the poor decisions made at the top and the lack of policing in their broker channels.

[justice98]

https://apnews.com/ae4b40a720b74ad8a9b0bfe65f7a9c29/Kept-out:-How-banks-block-people-of-color-from-homeownership

[youngestson]

4 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

No, because they thought they were inferior.  Watch something like Gangs of New York if you haven't already 

I've seen it. Pretty entertaining even if there are some plot holes.

 

And yes, they consider other groups to be lesser. However, those groups whom they considered inferior were of the same the same race. That's why I would consider such instances prejudice, not racism. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 hours ago, justice98 said:

https://apnews.com/ae4b40a720b74ad8a9b0bfe65f7a9c29/Kept-out:-How-banks-block-people-of-color-from-homeownership

You can post all the evidence, studies and research, they won’t care. There is always something to explain it away in their minds because they flatly do not care.

Edited September 1, 2018 by BenningRoadSkin

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, youngestson said:

I've seen it. Pretty entertaining even if there are some plot holes.

 

And yes, they consider other groups to be lesser. However, those groups whom they considered inferior were of the same the same race. That's why I would consider such instances prejudice, not racism.  

 

Race is an artificial construct.  Whiteness is an artificial construct.  Ethnic groups like Germans, Swedes, Poles, Italians, and Irish didn't have the status of Whiteness when they first got here.  They gained that over time.

[tshile]

3 hours ago, justice98 said:

https://apnews.com/ae4b40a720b74ad8a9b0bfe65f7a9c29/Kept-out:-How-banks-block-people-of-color-from-homeownership

 

You had me until the paragraph way down the page that basically explained evrrything

 

Quote

Reveal’s analysis included all records publicly available under the Home Mortgage Disclosure Act, covering nearly every time an American tried to buy a home with a conventional mortgage in 2015 and 2016. It controlled for nine economic and social factors, including an applicant’s income, the amount of the loan, the ratio of the size of the loan to the applicant’s income and the type of lender, as well as the racial makeup and median income of the neighborhood where the person wanted to buy property.

 

Credit score was not included because that information is not publicly available.

 

So we got a study with a claim that doesn’t factor in the main explanation provided by the lenders. 

 

Which means we have nothing. I’m not saying the problem doesn’t exist. I’m saying this isn’t evidence of it. 

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, youngestson said:

I've seen it. Pretty entertaining even if there are some plot holes.

 

And yes, they consider other groups to be lesser. However, those groups whom they considered inferior were of the same the same race. That's why I would consider such instances prejudice, not racism. 

 

How about instead of arguing with me about them being the same race you go make sure what race actually is.  At minimum they weren't considered the same race in the time period I'm talking about.

 

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/race

 

race²

[reys]

noun

1. a group of persons related by commondescent or heredity.
2. a population so related.
3. Anthropology.
   1. (no longer in technical use) any of thetraditional divisions of humankind, thecommonest being the Caucasian,Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized bysupposedly distinctive and universalphysical characteristics.
   2. an arbitrary classification of modernhumans, sometimes, especially formerly,based on any or a combination ofvarious physical characteristics, as skincolor, facial form, or eye shape, and nowfrequently based on such geneticmarkers as blood groups.
   3. a socially constructed category ofidentification based on physicalcharacteristics, ancestry, historicalaffiliation, or shared culture:Her parents wanted her to marry withinher race.
   4. a human population partially isolatedreproductively from other populations,whose members share a greater degreeof physical and genetic similarity withone another than with other humans.
4. a group of tribes or peoples forming anethnic lineage:the Slavic race.
5. any people united by common history,language, cultural traits, etc.:the Dutch race.
6. the human race or family; humankind:Nuclear weapons pose a threat to the race.
7. Zoology. a variety; subspecies.
8. a natural kind of living creature:the race of fishes.
9. any group, class, or kind, especially ofpersons:Journalists are an interesting race.
10. the characteristic taste or flavor of wine.

 

 

The key here is understanding common phsyical characteristics, such as Irish being known for having red hair and being *gasp Irish decent or even from Ireland.  It's already been touched on to be careful simplifying race to America's understanding of it.  If you don't understand the difference between human race and racial nationalism, you have no idea what kind of minefield you walking into calling someone from China Japanese.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Renegade7

[Going Commando]

If anyone is interested in reading about how the current status of whiteness in America was created, and how various European immigrant groups gained it, then I recommend reading this book on the subject: Working Towards Whiteness by David Roediger.

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007WSNQDQ/

[TheGreatBuzz]

38 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

The key here is understanding common phsyical characteristics, such as Irish being known for having red hair and being *gasp Irish decent or even from Ireland.  It's already been touched on to be careful simplifying race to America's understanding of it.  If you don't understand the difference between human race and racial nationalism, you have no idea what kind of minefield you walking into calling someone from China Japanese.

It is interesting how "brown" people (as opposed to white or black) seem to be very tied to the actual country of origin (Korean, Chinese, Dominican, etc).  You don't see that with white people.  I can take a guess why you don't see it with most black people (lack of family history records due to slavery).

 

reminds me of a Russian guy I used to work with.  Pasty white and people always raised an eyebrow when he said he was Asian, which is geographically correct.

[twa]

50 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Race is an artificial construct.  Whiteness is an artificial construct.  Ethnic groups like Germans, Swedes, Poles, Italians, and Irish didn't have the status of Whiteness when they first got here.  They gained that over time.

 

some(most) of the founders had views that today are alien.

https://qz.com/904933/a-history-of-american-anti-immigrant-bias-starting-with-benjamin-franklins-hatred-of-the-germans/

 

When my wife first met my great grandmother she had just finished a epic rant about the German scum.

after I introduced her as German granny allowed she must be one of the 'good' ones 

 

[justice98]

 

49 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

You had me until the paragraph way down the page that basically explained evrrything

 

 

So we got a study with a claim that doesn’t factor in the main explanation provided by the lenders. 

 

Which means we have nothing. I’m not saying the problem doesn’t exist. I’m saying this isn’t evidence of it. 

 

But it had access to the information that determines credit scores.  So credit scores not actually being a part of it doesnt change a whole lot, IMO.  You're still gonna get the same result. 

[tshile]

16 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

You don't see that with white people. 

I went to a Scottish festival and dudes were wearing skirts and throwing hammers and weird burlap sacks with pitch forks so I don’t know about that

[TheGreatBuzz]

14 minutes ago, twa said:

 

some(most) of the founders had views that today are alien.

https://qz.com/904933/a-history-of-american-anti-immigrant-bias-starting-with-benjamin-franklins-hatred-of-the-germans/

 

When my wife first met my great grandmother she had just finished a epic rant about the German scum.

after I introduced her as German granny allowed she must be one of the 'good' ones 

 

My grandfather (WW2 vet and POW) had racist views about pretty much everyone that was European.  Pretty much ended with them being *******.  (think "cat")

1 minute ago, tshile said:

I went to a Scottish festival and dudes were wearing skirts and throwing hammers and weird burlap sacks with pitch forks so I don’t know about that

Not saying it doesn't exist.  But no where near the level it does with "brown" people.

[Renegade7]

16 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

It is interesting how "brown" people (as opposed to white or black) seem to be very tied to the actual country of origin (Korean, Chinese, Dominican, etc).  You don't see that with white people.  I can take a guess why you don't see it with most black people (lack of family history records due to slavery).

 

This is why I have trouble identifying as African-American, it reminds me how that was intentionally severed.  And worse, underrated plot of Black Panther was a Black American upset that an African country didn't come to save them.  In many cases they were active in helping supply slaves because they already had slavery. I'd still want to know though, coulda been an early sharecroper, back before we figured out how to do it for free here, too.

 

Quote

reminds me of a Russian guy I used to work with.  Pasty white and people always raised an eyebrow when he said he was Asian, which is geographically correct.

 

Russia is weird, man, you can totally see how they fit in European, but most of that country is in Asia. Maybe not your scenario, but I wouldn't argue with anybody about their race if I have trouble pronouncing the name of their country.

 

[Springfield]

6 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

My grandfather (WW2 vet and POW) had racist views about pretty much everyone that was European.  Pretty much ended with them being *******.  (think "cat")

 

My last name is French.

 

All my life, I’ve dealt with people making fun of Frenchies who have burnt arm pits because they drop their guns.  Dumb **** like that.

 

Not really the same thing as institutional racism, but I think people like your grandfather still exist and I think they’re dumb****s.

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

This is why I have trouble identifying as African-American, 

One of the interesting things about an internet message board.  No clue you were black. 

 

Pretty much everyone here I know by posting style with the exception of a few.

[TheGreatBuzz]

10 minutes ago, Springfield said:

 

My last name is French.

 

All my life, I’ve dealt with people making fun of Frenchies who have burnt arm pits because they drop their guns.  Dumb **** like that.

 

Not really the same thing as institutional racism, but I think people like your grandfather still exist and I think they’re dumb****s.

Meh.  I understood where it came from.  Not saying it is right.  But understandable.

 

A number of years ago, I took him out to lunch for Veterans Day.  As our waitress turned to leave he made a loud comment about the size of her tits.  I told him he can't say stuff like that.  He got upset and started about how he didn't spend years in a POW camp to be told what he could say.  Then went on about how it wouldn't have been neccessary if the damn germans didn't think they were meant to rule the world.  And if the **** French didn't roll over like dogs.  When his plane was shot down, he tried in hide in a French guys barn.  Dude hit him with a shovel and turned him over to the germans if I remember the stories correctly.  He went on about a few other groups but you get the point.

 

I was embarrassed but let him go.  We got a lot of looks but when he was done we got some applause also.  A lot from what appeared to be other vets of the same era.  

 

Again, not saying I agree.  But I understood. 

Edited September 1, 2018 by TheGreatBuzz
Spelling

[Destino]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

 

You had me until the paragraph way down the page that basically explained evrrything

 

 

So we got a study with a claim that doesn’t factor in the main explanation provided by the lenders. 

 

Which means we have nothing. I’m not saying the problem doesn’t exist. I’m saying this isn’t evidence of it. 

This is depressingly common.  Make a habit of reading studies and you’ll find articles that mischaracterize the findings, or studies that are so obviously flawed that you wonder if the conclusion was written first and they worked their way backwards from there.  

[Renegade7]

25 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

One of the interesting things about an internet message board.  No clue you were black. 

 

Pretty much everyone here I know by posting style with the exception of a few.

I guess that's a good thing.  Do we really want to have a "What's your Race" thread and poll?  I don't want people to get heated about it.

[TheGreatBuzz]

12 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I guess that's a good thing.  Do we really want to have a "What's your Race" thread and poll?  I don't want people to get heated about it.

As long as "American" is an option.

 

Edit: Reminds me when @LadySkinsFan posted a picture and I was shocked she was white.  I pictured her as an short old black lady.  But that was because she reminded me very much of a friend of mine that had similar views on everything.  

Edited September 1, 2018 by TheGreatBuzz

[Mr. Sinister]

19 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I guess that's a good thing.  Do we really want to have a "What's your Race" thread and poll?

 

Maybe if we set it up like a game show, and the correct answer nets a prize 

[Destino]

19 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

 

But it had access to the information that determines credit scores.  So credit scores not actually being a part of it doesnt change a whole lot, IMO.  You're still gonna get the same result. 

I’m reading Reveals report, and it’s not good imo.  Examples:

 

Quote

When Faroul applied for a loan in April 2016, she thought she was an ideal candidate. She holds a degree from Northwestern University, had a good credit score and estimates she was making $60,000 a year while teaching computer programming as a contractor for Rutgers University. Still, her initial loan application was denied by Philadelphia Mortgage Advisors, an independent broker that made nearly 90 percent of its loans to whites in 2015 and 2016.

 

“I’m sorry,” broker Angela Tobin wrote to Faroul in an email. Faroul’s contract income wasn’t consistent enough, she said. So Faroul got a full-time job at the University of Pennsylvania managing a million-dollar grant.

 

But that still wasn’t enough. 

Two things are happening here.  

1- That she made 60k a year is meaningless without also knowing her monthly debt.  Mortgage applications depend debt to income, not just income.  

2- we’re told she got a full time job elsewhere “and that still wasn’t enough.” That’s because income isn’t calculated based on current expected income alone.  I don’t know how each bank does it today but it was fairly standard to look at the last two years and if their was a disparity or change in employment underwriters could take the average of the two year or the lower number.  The bank is determining risk, so they’re looking for stable and predictable.  

 

None of this is some secretive mortgage process.  Loan officers will tell borrowers these things up front.  Why did reveal frame this as sinister instead of simply explaining how the process works?

 

Quote

Then, an unpaid $284 electric bill appeared on Faroul’s credit report. It was for an apartment she didn’t live in anymore. She paid the bill right away, but the bank said it couldn’t move forward.

Why would paying it right away matter to the lender?  This is especially true if it lowered the score below the threshold, paying it or not makes little difference in that moment.  

 

 

Quote

“They may not like what happened between the last time you were working on this particular job to this one. They may see there was a gap,” she said. “I have seen situations where they’ve asked people for the children’s birth records.”

 

“The things that happen behind the scenes is what’s disturbing,” she said.

If an underwriter sees a gap in employment they need documentation that explains it.  Kids, disability, starting your own business, or going back to college... anything that explains the gap is likely to need documentation.  The entire process is designed around the idea of verifying everything.  Example:  They ask borrowers to provide pay stubs, and then still contact their employer for that information directly.  

 

Edit:  forgot to include the link.  https://www.revealnews.org/article/for-people-of-color-banks-are-shutting-the-door-to-homeownership/

Edited September 2, 2018 by Destino

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

As long as "American" is an option.

 

Edit: Reminds me when @LadySkinsFan posted a picture and I was shocked she was white.  I pictured her as an short old black lady.  But that was because she reminded me very much of a friend of mine that had similar views on everything.  

 

If we go at this like different number of denominations, could easily be too many options.  But I'll take that as a "yes".

[Renegade7]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Maybe if we set it up like a game show, and the correct answer nets a prize 

Make poll private and have people guess?  If a poster's race is guessed by someone, they have to come in to confirm it, no "I heard" none of that, even if we know.  If ya'll want to do points, you only get one if poster verified and can't be someone that someone already guessed.  My concern is people jumping in with their interpretation of what race is, we should do that here instead.

[Springfield]

1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Meh.  I understood where it came from.  Not saying it is right.  But understandable.

 

A number of years ago, I took him out to lunch for Veterans Day.  As our waitress turned to leave he made a loud comment about the size of her tits.  I told him he can't say stuff like that.  He got upset and started about how he didn't spend years in a POW camp to be told what he could say.  Then went on about how it wouldn't have been neccessary if the damn germans didn't think they were meant to rule the world.  And if the **** French didn't roll over like dogs.  When his plane was shot down, he tried in hide in a French guys barn.  Dude hit him with a shovel and turned him over to the germans if I remember the stories correctly.  He went on about a few other groups but you get the point.

 

I was embarrassed but let him go.  We got a lot of looks but when he was done we got some applause also.  A lot from what appeared to be other vets of the same era.  

 

Again, not saying I agree.  But I understood. 

 

As an American who has a French last name, I just normally let it slide.  I’ve had people mispronounce my last name my whole life.

 

I get that people are trying to be funny, but insulting me based on a heritage that I don’t necessary come from or have anything to do with is silly.

 

Not directing anything at your grandfather at all.  Just my personal experience when dealing with acquaintances who make remarks about the French to insult me (in jest or not).  I normally just laugh along but judge that person silently.

 

 

 

46 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I guess that's a good thing.  Do we really want to have a "What's your Race" thread and poll?  I don't want people to get heated about it.

 

I think that everyone on here is as their avatar depicts.

 

I’m clearly Sean Taylor.

@TheGreatBuzz is obviously a dog

@BenningRoadSkin is Donald Trump

@Mr. Sinister is a Russian

@twa is an infant

@Renegade7 I’m not sure what you are, but on my iPhone it appears that you’re some dark bringer of death.  Maybe I shouldn’t **** with you too much...

Edited September 2, 2018 by Springfield