Is this the most talented yet misused defensive front we've had in years?

[NoCalMike]

I think was has been more surprising to me is that having Allen & Payne in the middle of the D-line hasn't seemed to have led to the linebackers getting more free lanes to the QB.  I expected a lot more linebackers showing up in the pass rush after Payne was drafted.  I think Allen & Payne are creating the push, but you see a team like the 49ers, there is always someone in the pass rush to take advantage of the D-line's work in the trenches.  It seems like with the Redskins most of the sacks are coming from good coverage where the QB has to hold the ball for a long time and eventually someone sheds a block.  You simply don't see the speed on the defense anywhere.

[HTTRDynasty]

Ouch.  Jonathan Allen...

 

 

[CrypticVillain]

That chart tells me what my eyes have seen... Allen isn't having that good of a year. Ioannidis and Payne have stood out.

[bh32]

The scheme is trash that is why the DL dosen't look better than it does..

[JSSkinz]

I think Sheehan said this morning the team is 7th in the league in sacks now, they've had 17 over the past 3 weeks.

 

The D has played better over the last several weeks.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Some of the hype this past off season was borderline embarrassing.

 

It’s ok to wait until the players perform on the field before crowning them. 
 

while they’ve played better recently, I still don’t rate the DL nearly as high as most do 

[wit33]

6 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Some of the hype this past off season was borderline embarrassing.

 

It’s ok to wait until the players perform on the field before crowning them. 
 

while they’ve played better recently, I still don’t rate the DL nearly as high as most do 

Kind of operating in gray area, but where would you rate the Dline? 
 

Matt I turning into a pro bowler certainly is a surprise this season. Are you down on Allen and Payne? 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

17 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Kind of operating in gray area, but where would you rate the Dline? 
 

Matt I turning into a pro bowler certainly is a surprise this season. Are you down on Allen and Payne? 

Ioannidis is good and his value has been maximized. I always liked him. He’s better than what I thought his ceiling was. 
 

I think Payne has elite traits but I don’t know if he’s a game breaker like how everyone wants to make him out. I don’t think he’ll ever be a pro bowler. Allen neither. I think they’ll earn second contracts here but they aren’t capable of making this defense top 10 like the narrative was in the offseason 

[Mr. Sinister]

19 hours ago, CrypticVillain said:

That chart tells me what my eyes have seen... Allen isn't having that good of a year. Ioannidis and Payne have stood out.

 

Probably due to injury

[CrypticVillain]

On 12/13/2019 at 3:14 PM, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Probably due to injury

Made it a point to pay attention to Allen on the first drive. He might be injured for real. Dude has no burst right now.

[Art]

Allen is an atrocious defensive end in a 3-4.   Ok, he's average at best.   Payne is average at best as a nose tackle in a 3-4.   Now, you put both at defensive tackle in a 4-3 with Sweat and Kerrigan with their hands on the ground and I ASSURE you things look a LOT different.   Allen is a one-gap player ONLY.   Payne is your two-gap interior space eater.   You play them right and they will be ok.   You play this scheme where they are simply not good fits for the positions and you get what you see now.   Payne isn't a NT in the NFL.   Allen is NOT a DE in the NFL.   But we play both at those spots.   

You put that 4-3 line in with Foster, Cole and Bostic at backer and you are suddenly an interesting defense for having players 6 of 7 almost naturally suited for those positions along your front 7.    At present we have precisely 0 players in the front seven playing in an ideal position for their skills.   

[Malapropismic Depository]

11 minutes ago, Art said:

Allen is an atrocious defensive end in a 3-4.   Ok, he's average at best.   Payne is average at best as a nose tackle in a 3-4.   Now, you put both at defensive tackle in a 4-3 with Sweat and Kerrigan with their hands on the ground and I ASSURE you things look a LOT different.   Allen is a one-gap player ONLY.   Payne is your two-gap interior space eater.   You play them right and they will be ok.   You play this scheme where they are simply not good fits for the positions and you get what you see now.   Payne isn't a NT in the NFL.   Allen is NOT a DE in the NFL.   But we play both at those spots.   

You put that 4-3 line in with Foster, Cole and Bostic at backer and you are suddenly an interesting defense for having players 6 of 7 almost naturally suited for those positions along your front 7.    At present we have precisely 0 players in the front seven playing in an ideal position for their skills.   

 

I agree.

And the correct response is...

a new DC ?

[Panninho]

15 hours ago, CrypticVillain said:

Made it a point to pay attention to Allen on the first drive. He might be injured for real. Dude has no burst right now.

He is by far my biggest disappointment of the season. I also think he is injured, got no other explanation for how poorly he performs. He gets walked back 3-4 yards on almost every run play and he has little impact on passing downs. 

I want to get a new defensive coordinator as badly as anyone else and think our defense is vastly underperforming because of poor coaching but this is an individual struggle as much as it is coaching.

[CrypticVillain]

4 hours ago, Panninho said:

He is by far my biggest disappointment of the season. I also think he is injured, got no other explanation for how poorly he performs. He gets walked back 3-4 yards on almost every run play and he has little impact on passing downs. 

I want to get a new defensive coordinator as badly as anyone else and think our defense is vastly underperforming because of poor coaching but this is an individual struggle as much as it is coaching.

I kept watching him a little bit longer and as the game progressed, he did start to look better. Which made me think it wasn't an injury...

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Art said:

Now, you put both at defensive tackle in a 4-3 with Sweat and Kerrigan with their hands on the ground and I ASSURE you things look a LOT different.

And probably more about this. He's probably bored in a 3-4 man. He is nowhere near the same dude I saw single-handedly control a line in his rookie year. Hopefully, we can get our wish and finally switch back to the 4-3. It's been 10 seasons I think and we could never get it right. Time to go back home to the 4-3. It's time.

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

I agree.

And the correct response is...

a new DC ?

What’s so fascinating is the Skins haven’t had a legitimate DC since Gregg Williams.  Blanche was “meh” and then Haz, Barry and Manusky for the last 10 years have just all been one enormous debacle.

 

I think if you TRIED to hire that level of incompetence you would have a tough time doing it.  

 

Haz was hired to run a 3-4, and he’d actually never really done it before.  Barry has the worst DC resume in the history of the NFL.  And Manusky was choice number 3, and part of Barry’s historically awful staff.  

 

Its stunning the ineptitude at DC we’ve suffered through over 12 years.  

[Mr. Sinister]

12 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

What’s so fascinating is the Skins haven’t had a legitimate DC since Gregg Williams.  Blanche was “meh” and then Haz, Barry and Manusky for the last 10 years have just all been one enormous debacle.

 

I think if you TRIED to hire that level of incompetence you would have a tough time doing it.  

 

Haz was hired to run a 3-4, and he’d actually never really done it before.  Barry has the worst DC resume in the history of the NFL.  And Manusky was choice number 3, and part of Barry’s historically awful staff.  

 

Its stunning the ineptitude at DC we’ve suffered through over 12 years.  

 

It's even worse when it feels stubbornly self inflicted

[Malapropismic Depository]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

What’s so fascinating is the Skins haven’t had a legitimate DC since Gregg Williams.  Blanche was “meh” and then Haz, Barry and Manusky for the last 10 years have just all been one enormous debacle.

 

 

Another interesting thing is, that Gregg Williams was actually the end of the opposite kind of trend, or era.

Starting in 2000, we had a string of decent DC's, all the way through 2007, ending with Williams.

They weren't all great, but not the huge disappointments we've been having since that time.

Is there any chance we could lure Marvin Lewis from Arizona State, back to DC...as a DC ?

 

2000 - Ray Rhodes

2001 - Kurt Schottenheimer

2002 - Marvin Lewis

2003 - George Edwards

2004-2007 - Gregg Williams

[CrypticVillain]

 

 

 

1

22 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Is there any chance we could lure Marvin Lewis from Arizona State, back to DC...as a DC ?

Doubt it. He'll probably only come here as an HC.

 

 

 

 

Quote

2000 - Ray Rhodes

2001 - Kurt Schottenheimer

2002 - Marvin Lewis

2003 - George Edwards

2004-2007 - Gregg Williams

This list makes me want to fight considering what he had since Double G... Matter of fact, I didn't even care about defense until Gregg Williams came here. That was my man.

[Voice_of_Reason]

18 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Another interesting thing is, that Gregg Williams was actually the end of the opposite kind of trend, or era.

Starting in 2000, we had a string of decent DC's, all the way through 2007, ending with Williams.

They weren't all great, but not the huge disappointments we've been having since that time.

Is there any chance we could lure Marvin Lewis from Arizona State, back to DC...as a DC ?

 

2000 - Ray Rhodes

2001 - Kurt Schottenheimer

2002 - Marvin Lewis

2003 - George Edwards

2004-2007 - Gregg Williams

I don't remember who were the DCs under Norv. I remember Mike Nolan, who was very vanilla.   And Ray Rhodes in 2000.  Ray was a really good DC. I never understood why Nolan ever got a HC opportunity in SF.  Dan might have been a dick putting vanilla ice cream on his desk, but damn if the sentiment wasn't right.  

 

EDIT: I looked it up.  

 

1993 - 1996: Ron Lynn (I have no real memory of him)

1997 -1999 Nolan

2000 - Rhodes

 

I can't pass any judgement on Lynn, but 3 years of Nolan for Norv seems very equivalent to Haz/Barry/Manusky under Jay.

[Voice_of_Reason]

20 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

It's even worse when it feels stubbornly self inflicted

Shanahan hiring Haz wasn't the worst decision in the world.  Haz had been a DC before, coached in New Orleans, and actually won coach of the year.  He didn't seem like a complete bumbling idiot.  The real problem is that they selected an entire staff which had never coached a 3-4, didn't have players who were fit for a 3-4, and then tried to run a 3-4.  That was stupid.

 

It was also stupid to retain Haz for 5 years.  The defense ranged from awful to "meh" from 2010 - 2014.  In hindsight, though, he might have been the best of the 3 this decade.  Which is WILD to think about.

 

Jay hiring Barry was the single stupidest thing he ever did, and honestly it should have cost him his job in 2016.  Hiring the DC with the worst resume in NFL history over Wade Phillips potentially altered the course of Jay's head coaching tenure.  

[NeverSurrender]

On 12/15/2019 at 11:33 PM, Art said:

Allen is an atrocious defensive end in a 3-4.   Ok, he's average at best.   Payne is average at best as a nose tackle in a 3-4.   Now, you put both at defensive tackle in a 4-3 with Sweat and Kerrigan with their hands on the ground and I ASSURE you things look a LOT different.   Allen is a one-gap player ONLY.   Payne is your two-gap interior space eater.   You play them right and they will be ok.   You play this scheme where they are simply not good fits for the positions and you get what you see now.   Payne isn't a NT in the NFL.   Allen is NOT a DE in the NFL.   But we play both at those spots.   

You put that 4-3 line in with Foster, Cole and Bostic at backer and you are suddenly an interesting defense for having players 6 of 7 almost naturally suited for those positions along your front 7.    At present we have precisely 0 players in the front seven playing in an ideal position for their skills.   

Great Points, I never wanted us to move on from the 4-3.  I think we would immediately be better at stopping the run in the 4-3.  Only 2 questions, what do we do with Matt Ion?  He has been better then both Allen and Payne.  Ideally we want all 3 on the field as much as possible (match up dictation of course).  Next question would be about Ryan Anderson,  I think that guy has solidified his position on the first team, although he does play the run well, im not sure he is suited to play 4-3 End.  Just wanting your thoughts on that.  Loved your post though.  I would like to see us go back to the 4-3.  

[Mr. Sinister]

 

The 3-4 was a great defense when like maybe 2 teams total ran it and you cou ln d basically have your pick of bigguns and oddballs to go in it and make plays.  Now uts not so simp ln e and it seems like such a talent specific defense. It's just futile.

[NoCalMike]

I just hope that the next D-coordinator to walk through the doors in Ashburn takes a look at the film, figures out what the personnel excels at, what they struggle with, and design the scheme around that, while replacing the players he thinks is bad at everything.   Not sure why other organizations seem able to do this, but the Redskins coaches tend to alway do the opposite. 

[Master Blaster]

On 12/15/2019 at 10:33 PM, Art said:

You put that 4-3 line in with Foster, Cole and Bostic at backer and you are suddenly an interesting defense for having players 6 of 7 almost naturally suited for those positions along your front 7.    At present we have precisely 0 players in the front seven playing in an ideal position for their skills.   

 

You just created the slowest front 7 in the NFL

[skinny21]

4 hours ago, Master Blaster said:

 

You just created the slowest front 7 in the NFL

Maybe I’m missing something, but didn’t he just essentially replace Ioannidas with Rueben Foster?