NYT - Redskins Cheerleaders Describe Trip to Costa Rica that Crossed the Line

[WelshSkinsFan]

37 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

That would make sense if Charo and Rachel were coming out and confirming the story but saying "We were fine with it." They're not though. They are saying force, escort, coercion should be stricken from the record and that the NYT featured blatantly false and/or exaggerated claims. Huge difference. 

 

The use of those words is subjective though.  Your coercion is my suggestion.  The girls did confirm the party took place and some attended and some did not, some girls posed topless and some did not.  If you feel you cannot say no then you may believe you are being forced and coerced but just because you believe it does not make it so.  I am not sure that the original story contained any examples where anyone refused to comply or having done so was threatened or punished. 

 

To be clear, none of this makes it right.  No employee should ever feel as though they are being forced or coerced to do something they do not want to do and so regardless of the intent, if they were made to feel this way then somebody screwed up and there needs to be an investigation to determine what went wrong.  This investigation should be completed by an independent investigator appointed by the league.

 

 

[Bang]

9 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

@Bang, you can post what ever you would like, but your suggestion to just get rid of all the cheerleaders does nothing to improve the lives of women. For me, it’s actually sort of arrogant. Just get rid of the people who think forcing them to serve as escorts is a good idea. Why not start there?

Sure,, which is why in my very very very first post in the topic, i said i hope they SUE SNYDER and FORCE HIM TO SELL.
(I also said this in my third, and my fourth, which were directly responding to you. I can "post whatever i like"..   all i ask is you read it before deciding what it says.)

 

the reason i didn't want them in the NFL wasn't because someone might prostitute them, it's because of all the other reasons i have mentioned that have nothing to do with wanting to "improve the lives of women". I watch the NFL for football.. i don' care about the cheerleaders, and one of the main reasons why is because i don't see them as "cheerleaders"... they're just the fluffy T&A show that is supposed to tickle my dick during a timeout.

I'm talking about the friggin' game i'm watching. And that is about as important as it gets.

 

I think one thing in our gap here is that there is a distinct difference between exploitation and victimization.

On Sunday, they are exploited, like it or not. They make hardly any money, and they give a tits and ass show for anyone who can see them. They are required to wear items that accent their sexuality, and dance provocatively.

 

In Costa Rica, they were victimized. 

One is a potential (probable) crime, the other is not.

 

~Bang

 

I think this is one of those cases that we will get an equal number of girls truthfully saying this (or something similar) happened and an equal number who say it did not.

Some will say it because they don't know it happens, some will say it because they feel some sort of loyalty.. whatever.

We will get so many conflicting stories and the rich up at the top who orchestrate it for their amusement will be able to ride waves of contradiction all the way until it dies down. Nowadays facts are only facts if you get enough people to holler they are.

 

~Bang

 

 

[XtremeFan55]

27 minutes ago, EasternNCbywayofNOVA said:

Off topic.. to be fair the 80's/90's skins were winning.. that is what they represented... You don't think this culture was around back then? Stories of John Riggins along with other players at local DC bars chugging full bottles of liquor and doing lines in the bathrooms, Darrell Green frequenting Club 55 (Strip Club). The team also had a shed where they drank beer after practice. Let's not act like this culture is new. The technology today is what is new, the 24 hour news cycle. Older players count their blessings there were not cell phone cameras and twitter back then. 

I know Darrell Green and his wife Jewel.  Darrell never frequented any strip club.  That is slander.  

 

Darrell...Art Monk...Tim Johnson...Charles Mann...Harvey...etc.  are all Christians who go to Bret Fuller’s church on Rt 28.

 

I once counted over 30 players on the team back in the 80’s who were also Christians.  Reason why I like Cousins also.

 

I am also not naive.  I know about Riggins and his ‘After Five Club’ drinking beer in the maintenance shed at the old Redskins Park that included Russ Grimm and most of the Hogs.  I know about Dexter Manley and his coke problem.  

 

I used to see a lot of these players frequently and know where each lived.  Dave Butz...Cedar Cove.  Desmond Howard...Lakeport. Been to many of their homes and even had Jon Jansen and his wife over once.  I could go on and on.

 

The whole point was...Gibbs was a Christian same as Tony Dungy...and their influence carried over to the team.  In Gibbs case, the end result was a team predominantly populated with Christian men like him with integrity.

 

Get your facts straight next time.

[Renegade7]

10 minutes ago, Bang said:

Nowadays facts are only facts if you get enough people to holler they are.

 

~Bang

 

It's not what you know, its what you can prove. 

 

We might not be able to prove everything that happened down in Costa Rica, but we half proof these women are barely wearing any clothes every Sunday, and that's not necessary.  I'm going to be beside myself if this gets treated like having to prove what happened down there in order to do anything about the other stuff we're already on the fence about. 

 

That's how people get away with **** like this, you might not catch them in the act, but if you don't change the environment that allows it to happen in the first place, it will happen again, whether you can prove it or not.

[Bang]

Ren, the thoughts you just popped into my head are better served in the tailgate

One day, I'm sure.

 

~Bang

[Momma There Goes That Man]

NFL Cheerleaders in general are a disservice to women and a poor reflection of men. Sure, some women, and I assume pretty much all that sign up to be a cheerleaders, are proud of their bodies and accept that the role they've chosen is to dance and flaunt for drunk men during games. Ok. Just because they are fine with it doesn't make it right. There are other avenues that can be explored if they want to be dancers. 

 

I'd be perfectly fine removing cheerleaders from games entirely, dressing those women in business casual and sending them out on functions to be female ambassadors for the game. Do the community work etc. Help grow the sport and provide young women with responsible and respectable role models. 

 

As for men, the fact that cheerleaders exist just shows how dumb we are collectively. They wouldn't exist if it didn't work or provide some financial benefit to the team and sponsors. So thanks to all the grown men that hoot and holler and act like juvenile idiots when the cheerleaders are paraded out at the draft party each year or during games. People act like they've never seen a woman before. Maybe haven't, I don't know. It reeks of immaturity and creepiness to me and I hate being lumped in with that. Sure, i look at women too, there is a time and place for that to me and i don't need or want it to be part of my entertainment when watching football. I'm honestly having a hard time explaining it but it feels extremely primitive to have that lumped in to something else I enjoy. Like somebody thought, "the dumb men better see some tits and ass bouncing around or they are going to lose interest from this amazing game of football" I mean damn, give yourselves more credit men. Evolve just a little bit. Can't we be sophisticated enough that we can enjoy something without needing sex appeal smashed into it?

 

 

[thebluefood]

16 minutes ago, EasternNCbywayofNOVA said:

Off topic.. to be fair the 80's/90's skins were winning.. that is what they represented... You don't think this culture was around back then? Stories of John Riggins along with other players at local DC bars chugging full bottles of liquor and doing lines in the bathrooms, Darrell Green frequenting Club 55 (Strip Club). The team also had a shed where they drank beer after practice. Let's not act like this culture is new. The technology today is what is new, the 24 hour news cycle. Older players count their blessings there were not cell phone cameras and twitter back then. 

Not to mention JKC's wandering eye and Sonny Jurgensen's drinking escapades. Same as it ever was - and when you're a winner, it makes it easier to excuse bad behavior. 

 

It was interesting to read about the way Dan Snyder changed the cheerleading squad after taking over in 1999, though. 

 

Quote

After Daniel Snyder bought the Redskins in 1999, the cheerleading program was given a makeover. He brought it in-house — it had operated independently — and its style became increasingly risqué.

Mr. Snyder was “bringing the craft closer to pole dancing with every season,” said a 2009 column in The Washington City Paper, which referred to an advertisement on Mr. Snyder’s WTEM-AM sports talk radio station that year. In the ad, breathy male voices discussed a listener contest in which “five lucky winners” would have Redskins cheerleaders wash their cars. One man asked the other if he would like the cheerleaders “soaping up and scrubbing you.”

In an interactive feature on the Redskins’ website, fans were able to play a version of the “hot or not” game, clicking on a flame to pick between images of two cheerleaders. In online video interviews in the past, the cheerleaders were asked, “Describe your perfect date” and “What’s the first thing you notice about a man?” (Since publication of this article, the “hot or not” interactive has been removed).

 

It's especially interesting because as far as I know, Dan Snyder's much more of a straight arrow than JKC was.

 

[Renegade7]

19 minutes ago, Bang said:

Ren, the thoughts you just popped into my head are better served in the tailgate

One day, I'm sure.

 

~Bang

I may stop posting in this one until it gets moved or at least more facts come out : )

[CousinsCowgirl84]

@Bang

 

It ok for the nfl to sell violence (in the form of viscious hit-turned-highlight reels) but not sex (in the form of willing, tallented women performing dances on a field).

 

You are entitled to your opinion. 

[PlayAction]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

right. I’m sure these creepy men who can’t contril themselves wouldn’t simply find some other victim. It’s what they do.

 

This entire discussion reminds me of the UVA fraternity that was convicted by the public and then the entire story was proven to be a lie.  No one ever apologized for vandalizing their house; spitting in their faces or smearing their reputations.  The public just assumed everything was as claimed because the story was printed in the paper and the story fit identity politics.

 

There were "creepy men who couldn't control themselves"?  Is that new information or are you projecting your own theories, fears and dislikes?  Redskin cheerleaders often attend special fan events whether it's in club level rooms or outside Redskins park.  So if cheerleaders are invited to a bar on their all-expense-paid trip it could be more of the same OR it could be something all together different.  We don't know.  We do know that no one claimed they were raped or groped or harassed in any way.  Five years later three are saying that they felt like they were treated like escorts.  I'm not sure what that means when others claim that it was nothing.

 

Anyone who has ever looked at a bikini shoot would know that women may be topless (the photographer uses angle shots or partial covering to artistic effect).  I'm not sure why that's a big deal when you can go to many beaches (even in the US) and women are freely taking off their tops.  And, yes, there are men at these shoots.  

 

I'm going to withhold judgement until the facts are corroborated.  If the group director really was acting like the Madam of a brothel  I would expect to see similar stories in different locals and over a period of time.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

@PlayAction in a general sense,  creepy men who can’t control themselves have always exploited women, whether they were cheerleaders or secretaries. My point was telling women to change how they dress isn’t an appropriate response to this issue.

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

@Bang

 

It ok for the nfl to sell violence (in the form of viscious hit-turned-highlight reels) but not sex (in the form of willing, tallented women performing dances on a field).

 

You are entitled to your opinion. 

Sex and Violence aren't treated the same in this country, you know this.  The lines are different, you see it in the way we give ratings to every stitch of media we produce in this country.  

 

This is where I knew this discussion was going to go after the initial rage subsided (are we okay with our cheerleaders doing this?).  The point of if the cheerleaders knew what was going to go down and it thus being okay is just weird, like, should we really be doing that, even if the women are okay with it (the escort part)?

 

We need to stay on topic with this one.  The women knowingly take photos topless, its on the Redskins website.  Several of them did not want to do the escort/VIP thing and felt they had to anyway (we need confirmation on whether they knew that was the plan before they went to Costa Rica).  We need to pick if we're going to try to address the whole thing of what we want from our cheerleaders and what to do about this particular scandal separately, especially if we debating about what solutions to apply if we don't even agree on if its a problem to begin with.

 

I want this thread to be facts related to the scandal as it relates to our football team (especially if we want Redskins employees gone and we want this to stay in the Stadium).  If we want to talk about if we should be doing it in the first place, maybe that needs to be a separate thread all together, 2cents.

[PlayAction]

1 minute ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

@PlayAction in a general sense,  creepy men who can’t control themselves have always exploited women, whether they were cheerleaders or secretaries. My point was telling women to change how they dress isn’t an appropriate response to this issue.

 

Well we don't know that there were any "creepy men" involved at all.

 

Cheerleaders are objectifying themselves for their own profit.  Not for pay because they get paid squat.  But there are a few who are looking to cash in on high earning professional athletes AND any wealthy patrons.  A fair number of Redskins cheerleaders have married into wealth. Now that doesn't mean that anyone would be justifying sexual assault or anything of that nature.  But they should not be surprised if they are objectified when they willingly objectify themselves at every game and organized function. 

[Bang]

55 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

@Bang

 

It ok for the nfl to sell violence (in the form of viscious hit-turned-highlight reels) but not sex (in the form of willing, tallented women performing dances on a field).

 

You are entitled to your opinion. 

Ah, the holier than thou approach. Always an interesting tact. Make it a massive abstract morality play and claim the high ground. You poor dear.
Yes, i long ago came to the understanding that I , and you, and everyone else watching, am cheering to watch these men destroy their bodies. And I'm OK with it. The game itself is violent, and I like the game.

 

Now, as to the rest.. last time. So pay attention.

I 

do

not

think

the

SEX

adds

ANYTHING

to

the 

VIOLENCE

that

is

THE GAME.

 

Get it?

 

 

~Bang

[Spearfeather]

2 hours ago, XtremeFan55 said:

 

 

The whole point was...Gibbs was a Christian same as Tony Dungy...and their influence carried over to the team.  In Gibbs case, the end result was a team predominantly populated with Christian men like him with integrity.

 

 

 

Which players on the team now do you see as not having much integrity ?

 

Chris Thompson ? Ryan Kerrigan ? Morgan Moses ? Allen ? Ionnidis ? Crowder ?

 

Who ?

[NickyJ]

I'd be fine with doing away with "cheerleaders", but if we're not, I'd like to at least make a change to the squad a bit. I'd like to see Bang out on the sidelines to, wearing a speedo and pulling some sweet moves out there with some pompoms. I mean, as long as he's comfortable with his body and letting other people seeing it, it's all good.

 

If the fans in the stands don't care, tough. I think it is wrong to tell Bang what he can and can’t do with his body. If he wants to dress sexy, dance in public, and make money, more power too him.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, thebluefood said:

It was interesting to read about the way Dan Snyder changed the cheerleading squad after taking over in 1999, though.

 

It's especially interesting because as far as I know, Dan Snyder's much more of a straight arrow than JKC was.

 

 

 

Yeah, that's from a Dave MdKenna piece from the Washington City Paper during his height of anti-Snyder viotrol lol...I wouldn't put any stock whatsoever in his articles and would stay far away from using them as a source in my own (a mistake the NYT writer made), I could be wrong, but I think it may have been McKenna who either wrote that posters who criticized Snyder here on ES were being banned or he was promoting that perception from others making that claim. If so, he had zero problem running with that, fit his agenda to a"T".

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Don’t bother reading any material from any media member ever. It’s always BS.  They are all out to get Dan and have been since forever.  Bullies they are.  The end.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

13 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Don’t bother reading any material from any media member ever. It’s always BS.  They are all out to get Dan and have been since forever.  Bullies they are.  The end.

 

Unless they are positive then it’s awesome 

[WelshSkinsFan]

7 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Unless they are positive then it’s awesome 

 

Positive stories about Dan?  Links or I don't believe you, more likely to find proof of bigfoot.

[Renegade7]

I'm going to be so disappointed in yall if yall go into witch hunt angle mode on this one.

[NewCliche21]

16 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I'm going to be so disappointed in yall if yall go into witch hunt angle mode on this one.

 

Disappointment level rising in 3, 2, 1 . . . 

[HardcoreZorn]

27 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Don’t bother reading any material from any media member ever. It’s always BS.  They are all out to get Dan and have been since forever.  Bullies they are.  The end.

Does it hurt you that this very well could have ended up being somewhat BS? Or let me guess. You believe Bruce/Dan whomever, in an effort to cover up their coercion, then coerced two cheerleaders who were there on that trip to make up that it was BS and tell the whole world otherwise on live television. To control the message.

 

What a joke. It's fan reactions like yesterday's that proves some on here seem to hate Dan Snyder more than they actually like the Washington Redskins. And wrong attitude to have should that NYT article be confirmed true. Like really? Wait for no definitive proof, or extenuating details before slamming our FO and claiming they had a role in this? Not only is that disrespectful to what potentially could have been the much more serious problem, but it reeks of satisfying agendas in an effort to confirm their hatred for the owner of this franchise. Everybody gets it. The Redskins suck and Dan is the owner. But jumping to conclusions and lambasting our organization for anything and everything and using this as a campaign for Dan to finally sell the team before this ran its course is a poor look for many.

[Tsailand]

13 hours ago, c slag said:

I would guess that possibility Ted Leonsis might make a bid to own the team 

 

I don't think he has enough money to buy the entire team.  My dream scenario is that he gets together with the Lerners on this.  They fund most of it, he takes the role of minority owner plus team president, then hires a real GM to set up a real front office structure.

 

[Spearfeather]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Don’t bother reading any material from any media member ever. It’s always BS.  They are all out to get Dan and have been since forever.  Bullies they are.  The end.

 

Right, because that's what Cali was saying.