NYT - Redskins Cheerleaders Describe Trip to Costa Rica that Crossed the Line

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

12 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said:

I hope there is a proper investigation and the truths revealed. Probably get buried with a call to the editor from a high dollar sponsor or the NFL itself, but hey 

 

 

 

I get that and it would be nice, but I'm not sure how that happens exactly.  Those doing the 'investigation' are those with the most to lose.  Also, different strokes for different folks in regards to the allegations.  I'm sure it all depends on who you talk to, as that's what it looks like given the public comments from those involved thus far.

[OVCChairman]

On 5/5/2018 at 4:50 PM, goskins10 said:

 

This is the assumption made by many that have never been in that situation. When in fact the ladies may have been horrified at the time and it took this long before they could talk about it. I raised this issue before - there are many emotions that go through your head, fear, guilt and humiliation .That's why these things do not get reported sooner or at all. With all due respect , assuming it's not a big deal because they did not say anything for 5 yrs is based on a truly faulty premise and one the displays a lack of understanding what goes through the minds of people that suffer the type of abuse these ladies are alleged to have endured. 

 

I am, not saying there is not the possibility that these women did not suddenly get upset when it looked liek thy could cash in. But that's why there has to be a complete investigation. If they made it up they should pay accordingly. If any of it's true, whoever was responsible should also pay accordingly. 

 

My guess is that's it's somewhere in between. Some of it true, some of it exaggerated. But even if only a part of it is true. there has to be accountability. 

 

This is where I stand with it.  My point was that within THIS article, I think the writer had an agenda.  That he caught wind of possible wrong doing, and he ran with it, and until this whole thing plays out, I think he inflated the writing to get a bigger story, and it worked.  

 

I think having sponsors there without the ladies knowing during the shoot was wrong.  I think it made them uncomfortable, and then having them go out with these same sponsors after having seen them topless in some instances is a terrible practice.  I absolutely think some of these ladies felt obligated to continue.  That in itself means there needs to be an investigation, and they need to be spoken with about context and communication.  Were they informed these gentleman were going to be there?  If so, we're they given the option to opt out?  Not all women were topless from the vibe I've picked up, is this something that they were afforded as well?  If any of these answer is no, then someone needs to be disciplined for it.

 

My point was that 2 other young ladies have officially filed a complaint with the league from two other teams and it was glossed over in the article, so that itself perks my ears up about the seriousness of this.  We're ALL drawing conclusions based on opinions, since these ladies spoke under anonymity and have not filed any sort of a suit or grievance with the league or the team (as far as I know).  Something happened there and it made some ladies uncomfortable.  It needs to be investigated and looked into, and if there was any wrong doing, it needs to be dealt with.  The team botched the opportunity to handle it correctly, so now they need to play catch up.  

 

 

I'm 100% sympathetic to the fact that they may have felt pressured to remain silent, I was not trying to discount that... and if they did, then I truly feel for them.  My point was, between the apparent targeted subject of the Redskins by a news source notorious for articles that are less than flattering for our team, paired with multiple young ladies discounting the claims, and the timeline being what it was... it just causes me to wonder if these allegations were truly sincere or if the writer was fishing for a story and found something he could develop.   Again, if something bad happened, it 100% needs to be dealt with.  I'm not discrediting these young ladies, I'm more questioning the writer. 

 

[SWFLSkins]

36 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I get that and it would be nice, but I'm not sure how that happens exactly.  Those doing the 'investigation' are those with the most to lose.  Also, different strokes for different folks in regards to the allegations.  I'm sure it all depends on who you talk to, as that's what it looks like given the public comments from those involved thus far.

 

I think the only way that happens is if the offended parties lawyer up. The time past may effect that, location?/ IDK. 

[goskins10]

7 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

This is where I stand with it.  My point was that within THIS article, I think the writer had an agenda.  That he caught wind of possible wrong doing, and he ran with it, and until this whole thing plays out, I think he inflated the writing to get a bigger story, and it worked.  

 

Edit

 

 

I respect your opinion but I just think this narrative that writers have this agenda they are always working and the truth be damned is entirely overblown in our society right now. Not saying you - but in general it feels like any time we disagree with something written or have a hard time understanding it, the instant response now is - well there is clearly and agenda here and it's probably "fake news" the two words I hate most in life right now as they are being used to trivialize anything someone disagrees with. I will leave it at that as I realize I am getting dangerously close to getting political - something I despise in the Stadium myself. 

 

Not sure the other articles were glossed over as much as they were stand alone. I agree though it could have been presented as part of a series and made better reference. But weer the Redskins referenced in the other articles? I ask that as I do not know. 

 

As for the writer "fishing" for something, does it really matter? Clearly several women felt uncomfortable. It needs to be investigated. For me that's all that really matters. Did the writer sensationalize it some to make a point? Maybe. But that should not discredit the entire story (Not accusing you of that at all. I saw where you wrote the opposite - more of a general statement to those that are blowing this off. Again not directed at you.)

 

There is something there that needs to be investigated - and not by the Redskins. Let someone independent do it. It's like the NFL investigating themselves. Oddly enough they always come out with the results that benefits the NFL the most. 

[OVCChairman]

20 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I respect your opinion but I just think this narrative that writers have this agenda they are always working and the truth be damned is entirely overblown in our society right now. Not saying you - but in general it feels like any time we disagree with something written or have a hard time understanding it, the instant response now is - well there is clearly and agenda here and it's probably "fake news" the two words I hate most in life right now as they are being used to trivialize anything someone disagrees with. I will leave it at that as I realize I am getting dangerously close to getting political - something I despise in the Stadium myself. 

 

Not sure the other articles were glossed over as much as they were stand alone. I agree though it could have been presented as part of a series and made better reference. But weer the Redskins referenced in the other articles? I ask that as I do not know. 

 

As for the writer "fishing" for something, does it really matter? Clearly several women felt uncomfortable. It needs to be investigated. For me that's all that really matters. Did the writer sensationalize it some to make a point? Maybe. But that should not discredit the entire story (Not accusing you of that at all. I saw where you wrote the opposite - more of a general statement to those that are blowing this off. Again not directed at you.)

 

There is something there that needs to be investigated - and not by the Redskins. Let someone independent do it. It's like the NFL investigating themselves. Oddly enough they always come out with the results that benefits the NFL the most. 

 

 

I agree with all of it.  It does need to get investigated... Those sponsors should not have been there unless the ladies were made aware of it ahead of time.  I'm not saying that THIS article is false as I don't know.  I'm just saying I'm not sure what happened, and there are no real FACTS here.  The NYT has a history of writing regarding a disagreement with our name and other aspects of our franchise.  The timeline is odd.  The fact that these ladies did not come forward.  A large group that is saying it's untrue.  These are not facts, they are factors.  

I'm not saying that the story is fake, because I don't know.. just that there is some suspect information and now someone needs to find out more. 

 

Let me apologize, I'm not saying this is a false claim or some sort of a smear campaign.   I'm just saying that there is a lot of grey area and someone needs to find out more.  Innocent until proven guilty.  Lets find out.  If someone is guilty, then it needs to be dealt with... but I'm just not ready to start pointing fingers and rushing Ashburn with torches and pitch forks until we know..... and the investigation SHOULD NOT be handled by anyone within our organization or the NFL.  

[goskins10]

17 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I agree with all of it.  It does need to get investigated... Those sponsors should not have been there unless the ladies were made aware of it ahead of time.  I'm not saying that THIS article is false as I don't know.  I'm just saying I'm not sure what happened, and there are no real FACTS here.  The NYT has a history of writing regarding a disagreement with our name and other aspects of our franchise.  The timeline is odd.  The fact that these ladies did not come forward.  A large group that is saying it's untrue.  These are not facts, they are factors.  

I'm not saying that the story is fake, because I don't know.. just that there is some suspect information and now someone needs to find out more. 

 

Let me apologize, I'm not saying this is a false claim or some sort of a smear campaign.   I'm just saying that there is a lot of grey area and someone needs to find out more.  Innocent until proven guilty.  Lets find out.  If someone is guilty, then it needs to be dealt with... but I'm just not ready to start pointing fingers and rushing Ashburn with torches and pitch forks until we know..... and the investigation SHOULD NOT be handled by anyone within our organization or the NFL.  

 

I think we are basically in agreement - maybe just a little different on the NYT but that is minor. I do agree it's too early to call for anyone's head in this. I know some are wanting Dan Snyder to be forced out - and for this alone I agree there is not nearly enough known. For what we know about this issue right now there is no where near enough information to start firing people or taking any kind of action other than investigating the accusations. 

 

I will say he has done enough other dumb **** that he deserves to be run out on a rail. But in fairness that's a different conversation.

[Veryoldschool]

It's a football team the focus should be on running a competent football team not turning a buck selling sleazy calendars.  There shouldn't be any racy photo shoot for Synder to sell peeping access to along with branding rights.  The League ought to shut this crap down not just in Washington but across the board.  I think the NFL has peaked and is on the decline for a lot of reasons the owners of the League don't need to create more problems and another reason for fans the bail on the League.  

[WelshSkinsFan]

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

It's a football team the focus should be on running a competent football team not turning a buck selling sleazy calendars.  There shouldn't be any racy photo shoot for Synder to sell peeping access to along with branding rights.  The League out to shut this crap down not just in Washington but across the board.  I think the NFL has peaked and is on the decline for a lot of reasons the owners of the League don't need to create more problems and another reason for fans the bail on the League.  

 

That is a pretty hyperbolic response to say the least.  If you follow the business of football, I suggest you read Andrew Brandt on this, the narrative that the NFL has peaked or is in some sort of decline is shown to be patently false.  The league just signed a whole bunch of new TV deals dwarfing the previous deals and are continuing to add revenue streams and globalize the brand successfully.  Not going to get into politics here  but the league in decline stuff largely stems from the rantings of 45 and those who follow him without concern for facts or evidence.

 

The cheerleader issue is quite frankly related to freedom of choice.  Nobody is forcing you to ogle them or buy their calendars and so I fail to see why you are getting so hot under the collar about it all.  Taking away somebody elses opportunity to fulfill an ambition as an NFL cheerleader is solving nothing and simply imposing your own values on everyone else, not what this country is about.  I have no idea what hot dogs and beer have to do with sports but I am not so puritanical as to say nobody should eat or drink at games because I choose not to.

 

Cheerleaders should be treated with the same respect as anyone else doing a job and afforded the same protections.  If wrongdoing has occurred heads should roll but this should not be seized as an opportunity to force someones puritanical views of how football should be on the rest of us.

[SWFLSkins]

\

 

 

Susan Dettmar

16 hrs · 

 

As many of you know, I was a Washington Redskins Cheerleader in 2013 and on the calendar trip to Costa Rica. I was also a team captain at the time. So as you can imagine, I felt the shock and horror of the New York Times article and recent media coverage pretty acutely. While I’ve been supporting the women who have spoken out publicly from behind the scenes, as a former leader on the team I feel a deep responsibility to share my perspective more broadly, as well as to lend my support in helping to shape a path forward - for all of the women with whom I shared the experience, for those who came before me, and for the generations of WRC to come.

As a woman who firmly supports the #MeToo movement and feminism, I’ve wrestled with the best way to make sense of balancing my own experience and feelings with the firsthand accounts of others. Frankly, it’s a bit painful. Painful because, like many others who have spoken out, my three years with the WRC were transformative and to this day, serve as a real source of pride. I fundamentally believe that I am a stronger woman, leader, professional, and a better friend, wife and even mother because of it. If you care to know more about my experience, this sums it up pretty nicely: https://bit.ly/1oly0U7 (and if you take the time to read it, please ignore the typo of “peek”… still irks me to this day). It deeply saddens me to hear that this was not the case for others.

For the women who spoke up to express these concerns, I want you know that I am here for you. And while it may feel like there are people speaking out “against” you, the reality is, this is hurtful for us all. From a personal perspective, I spent my time with the WRC working hard to be a strong female role model – for my teammates, the community, and especially for young girls – so it’s difficult to stomach the stories and now nationwide coverage that deeply sets us back from being able to realize that goal. There are plenty of negative stereotypes out there about NFL cheerleaders, and it kills me to hear people react to the recent media coverage of pro cheer with, “this doesn’t surprise me…” because it should. It surprised me. Yet regardless of your individual experience, we need to focus on empowering one another. With adversity comes learning, and I hope that we can all move forward and engage in a constructive dialogue. There is no better time than now to push for progress, and I believe the path forward is bigger than any of us. In the case of WRC, it is vital to preserve our legacy and tradition, while working toward a better reality for the current and future teams to come.

With that, I do want to shift the public conversation slightly, as I believe it’s important to decouple the WRC with the Redskins organization…and the NFL for that matter. While clearly affiliated, these are separate groups and leadership structures who, I believe, hold quite different views and perspectives of NFL cheerleading in general. I bring this up because one of the things I am most uncomfortable with about the recent media coverage is the way that a broad strokes picture of the WRC experience, specifically, and our director, Stephanie Jojokian, was portrayed. I think that context matters.

For context, I’d like to shed some light around the culture of the WRC, Stephanie’s team values, as well as the way that leadership worked. I was so personally inspired by these team values that in 2013 my fellow captains and I had them printed for permanent display inside the cheerleader locker room. Here they are below:

1. Be humble
2. Be responsible and accountable
3. Celebrate each other’s successes – everything will be fair but not equal
4. Be positive
5. Leave your issues at the door when it comes to rehearsal, but be there to support one another - both inside and outside of the studio
6. Trust in our Directors. They always have our best interest at heart

When I think about #5 and as a former captain, I am deeply saddened and disheartened by the idea that women with whom I was on the team with did not feel comfortable expressing their concerns until now. Stephanie appoints captains, co-captains and sideline assistants for the very purpose of creating layers of leadership and influence to: 1) lead by example 2) ensure everyone on the team felt supported, cared for, and heard, and 3) help drive continuous improvements on the team. Leadership aside, Stephanie also stressed the importance of what to do if you ever found yourself in an uncomfortable situation and ways for every member of the team to look out for one another. She is deeply passionate about creating a family atmosphere on the team, and you’ll often hear current and former WRC talk about the “sisterhood.” All of this context to say that this is not a time to point fingers at one person. There is a shared responsibility. On all of us.

While I fundamentally disagree with words like “forced” or “escort,” I recognize that I can only speak from my experience and my truth. In looking forward, I believe that there has never been a better time to fight for change. As a group of women, run by women, within a highly male dominated organization, there is undoubtedly more progress in NFL cheerleading that needs to be made. Pay, safety, and equal treatment are all very real issues that the NFL – yes, sadly, like many other industries and companies today – must improve.

And if you’ve gotten to the end of this novel, thanks for following along. As you can tell by my holiday themed profile photo, I don’t share much on here or update often, but this is a topic I am vehemently passionate about. Former and current WRC – look for a separate follow up from me. Love you all <3 Once. Always.

[zoony]

Good grief just get rid of the cheerleaders, what a cluster.

[Xameil]

2 minutes ago, zoony said:

Good grief just get rid of the cheerleaders, what a cluster.

Can we get robot real doll cheerleaders?

I'm sure Japan has something for us to replace them with...

[Veryoldschool]

7 minutes ago, zoony said:

Good grief just get rid of the cheerleaders, what a cluster.

 

I agree.

[WelshSkinsFan]

37 minutes ago, zoony said:

Good grief just get rid of the cheerleaders, what a cluster.

 

Nope.  We don't get rid of actresses because Harvey molests them, or researchers because Matt Lauer harasses them and that is because it would be punishing the victims.  This is the same thing, really not hard to understand people. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, WelshSkinsFan said:

 

Nope.  We don't get rid of actresses because Harvey molests them, or researchers because Matt Lauer harasses them and that is because it would be punishing the victims.  This is the same thing, really not hard to understand people. 

I'm pretty sure the same folks wanting to do away with the cheerleaders now, also thought that prior to these allegations.  Bang put it rather eloquently several pages back.  Perhaps some might feel different if they were actually cheerleading and not just really pretty, scantily clad, bobbleheads.  I'm sure many of the ladies are great people, but their role is that of what I just described.

[WelshSkinsFan]

8 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'm pretty sure the same folks wanting to do away with the cheerleaders now, also thought that prior to these allegations.  Bang put it rather eloquently several pages back.  Perhaps some might feel different if they were actually cheerleading and not just really pretty, scantily clad, bobbleheads.  I'm sure many of the ladies are great people, but their role is that of what I just described.

 

Very evolved of you.  Pretty sure all of the fans at the games are beer chugging Neanderthals too eh?  Lets just ban everything so nobody gets offended.

[Spaceman Spiff]

While I wouldn't miss the cheerleaders, the notion of getting rid of them smacks of "I don't want any of this #metoo bull**** around my man time on Sunday afternoons from 1 to 4pm!  It's getting increasingly harder to have man time around these parts!"

 

Yes, let's get rid of them because we don't want to deal with their issues.  Brilliant.

[NickyJ]

17 minutes ago, WelshSkinsFan said:

27 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'm pretty sure the same folks wanting to do away with the cheerleaders now, also thought that prior to these allegations.  Bang put it rather eloquently several pages back.  Perhaps some might feel different if they were actually cheerleading and not just really pretty, scantily clad, bobbleheads.  I'm sure many of the ladies are great people, but their role is that of what I just described.

 

Very evolved of you.  Pretty sure all of the fans at the games are beer chugging Neanderthals too eh?  Lets just ban everything so nobody gets offended.

 

This is actually pretty hilarious. The way to prove we have evolved from scantily clad neanderthals is to protest against removing scantily clad women from football sidelines. Brilliant.

[Veryoldschool]

On 5/7/2018 at 12:37 PM, WelshSkinsFan said:

 

That is a pretty hyperbolic response to say the least.  If you follow the business of football, I suggest you read Andrew Brandt on this, the narrative that the NFL has peaked or is in some sort of decline is shown to be patently false.  The league just signed a whole bunch of new TV deals dwarfing the previous deals and are continuing to add revenue streams and globalize the brand successfully.  Not going to get into politics here  but the league in decline stuff largely stems from the rantings of 45 and those who follow him without concern for facts or evidence.

 

The cheerleader issue is quite frankly related to freedom of choice.  Nobody is forcing you to ogle them or buy their calendars and so I fail to see why you are getting so hot under the collar about it all.  Taking away somebody elses opportunity to fulfill an ambition as an NFL cheerleader is solving nothing and simply imposing your own values on everyone else, not what this country is about.  I have no idea what hot dogs and beer have to do with sports but I am not so puritanical as to say nobody should eat or drink at games because I choose not to.

 

Cheerleaders should be treated with the same respect as anyone else doing a job and afforded the same protections.  If wrongdoing has occurred heads should roll but this should not be seized as an opportunity to force someones puritanical views of how football should be on the rest of us.

 

If the League isn't in decline than why all the empty seats and poor ratings?  I'm not just referring to the Skins across the League attendance and ratings were down.   Opinions can vary about the cause and whether it's a trend or not but the numbers were down.

 

I'm an old dude, I watched the League overtake baseball and you younger guys have no idea what a huge thing Monday Night Football used to be, there is no doubt the NFL peaked awhile ago and who know how far and fast it is going to decline.  Things change, change is the only constant and the NFL owners don't need a stronger head wind to fight.

[WelshSkinsFan]

Change is constant that is true but the empty seats are mostly an issue for those clubs who haven't won much lately and that has been true since the league began.  TV ratings are in decline for everything, the average ratings for networks have decreased year on year every year since the tail end of the 90's.  Relative to other programming and especially relative to other sports Football remains the biggest ratings driver available, this is why Fox just snapped up the Thursday Night football rights for practically double the price CBS paid just a couple of years ago.

 

The NFL remains far ahead of the pack in adapting to the changing landscape.  They now have streaming deals with Twitter, Amazon and Yahoo whilst also continuing to partner with telecommunications companies to deliver product for the cellphone and tablet crowd.  The under 30's don't sit in front of the TV for 3 plus hours to watch a game and so the game now moves with them, they like non stop action so we give them red zone.  NFL viewing figures in overseas markets in this same period have increased exponentially and there will be a full time team in London within the next 10 years and that will be followed by expansion into Germany, Mexico and even Japan.  Rule changes are being made to speed up the game to attract a younger audience and the goal is to have a game last no more than 2hours 30 minutes by 2024.  There is plenty of other innovation taking place should you be interested in researching this but the fact remains that the profits are continuing to rise and the league continues to be several steps ahead of every other major sport in the US.

 

Where do cheerleaders fit?  That will change and innovate too.  The more gratuitous and overtly sexualized side of pro cheerleading will phase out as tastes and attitudes change and there are a number of very good proposals out there for how to move forward which are now getting attention due to the recent media interest.  I have no interest in cheerleaders as they are now and clearly nor do many of the posters on this board and in this thread but I don't think there is any reason to penalize the victims by taking away cheer programs completely.  The simplest step forward is similar to what happened with officials, make them employees of the league with attendant salary and benefits and provide controlled, secure environments for fan interactions.  The cheer programs of most NFL clubs are involved in a great deal of charity work and community outreach and cheer leading  itself is a part of organized football at all other levels and so certainly has it's place in the game.  Reform is a great idea but trashing the programs completely because you don't like what they have become is no solution at all.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, WelshSkinsFan said:

 

Very evolved of you.  Pretty sure all of the fans at the games are beer chugging Neanderthals too eh?  Lets just ban everything so nobody gets offended.

What has failed to evolve is the role of the Washington Redskins “cheerleaders” and what they are asked to do on game days.

[Tsailand]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

What has failed to evolve is the role of the Washington Redskins “cheerleaders” and what they are asked to do on game days.

 

Their role has evolved, under Dan Snyder's leadership, into something rather unwholesome.

 

Time to evolve it back.  Or get rid of them.

[zoony]

2 hours ago, WelshSkinsFan said:

 

Nope.  We don't get rid of actresses because Harvey molests them, or researchers because Matt Lauer harasses them and that is because it would be punishing the victims.  This is the same thing, really not hard to understand people. 

 

Jesus Christ.  Last i checked cheerleaders are a marketing tool, not part of the game.  Using your movie analogy, this would be the equivalent of doing away with the practice of bribing local cinemas to play your films, after you realize that the practice is leading to abuse and is not an efficient use of funds.

 

Please tell me youre just ****ing with everyone, and not really serious about these analogies

[WelshSkinsFan]

Agree to disagree Zoony.  I don't watch football for the cheerleaders but I am not getting all hot and bothered because they are there either.  Specifically in this context we are discussing them being taken advantage of or mistreated and so the analogy to punishing victims of abuse is pretty much spot on.  These ladies like what they do and there are thousands more lining up to do the same so until they start killing puppies or laundering money for ISIS I am going to say live and let live and not advocate for shutting down the entire program.

[Xameil]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

"I don't want any of this #metoo bull**** around my man time on Sunday afternoons from 1 to 4pm!  It's getting increasingly harder to have man time around these parts!"

 

How did you know rule 1 of the man cave at my house?!?

Stalker...

[skins island connection]

3 hours ago, zoony said:

Good grief just get rid of the cheerleaders, what a cluster.

 

 As long and difficult a task it was to finally get rid of Haslett, it'll prob be a piece of cake axing the cheerleaders.

 

 It sure would be interesting to see a perspective [ opinion ] poll though regarding the main topic. There are a lot of fence-sitters looking down at both sides shaking their heads...