Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

[TD_washingtonredskins]

4 minutes ago, bedlamVR said:

 

Okay but the first season was his rookie season - and Jays first season coaching in the NFL (other than a stint as an offensive assistant 

 

Cousins didn't start until year 4 -  2nd year in Jays system here ...  Just saying - it is not really an apples to apples comparison .... how hard is it for people to actually give our coach some credit ? 

 

It's interesting because we haven't seen a Reid or Gruden QB in another system to really get a sense of how they'd do. 

 

Dalton is the best example we have and, like you said, he probably made improvements in his game as he was entering his prime. Outside of one great year after Gruden left, he's basically been about the same. For Reid, McNabb left and never played a full season. He wasn't as good for his 12ish games here, but he was clearly on the downslope of his career so it's hard to really say he was great with Reid and failed without him. 

 

Cousins leaving Gruden in his prime and Smith leaving Reid with still some tread on the tires will be a fascinating data point for each coach. Let's say, for example, that Smith thrives (matching last year's numbers) while Cousins plateaus or dips. That would be a huge check mark for Gruden. Conversely, if Smith struggles and Cousins improves...not good! 

[NoCalMike]

I think Guice, plus a healthy Thompson & Crowder will help in the red zone.  Also if you know who can stay on the field.  All of which has nothing to do with Alex Smith, to be fair.

[Darth Tater]

1 minute ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Right, I don't expect Smith to be a savior down there...I'm just hoping the combination of several things can help us improve: 

 

Smith's running ability (occasionally we scored on Cousins running read-option so I assume Smith could do it just as well, if not a little better)

Guice being better than our RBs 

Better play-calling (no reason to expect this I guess - Gruden probably is who he is going into his 5th year)

Health - Thompson and Reed are underrated weapons in the RZ

The red zone is a relatively large area.  1 down at the 11 is significantly different than 1 down at the 10. 1 down inside the 5 is significantly different from first down and goal outside the 5.

 

We did not score with Cousins running ROs occasionally. For the last 3 years, it has our best way to score in the red zone via the run game. I don't understand why people are so enamored by Alex as a runner, Cousins was about as good at it (not as big a threat to make the long run is pretty much the main difference) and seems much better using his legs to score.  I think you may be right about Reed being underrated, in 2015 we were a top 10 red zone team when he was healthy. I also think respect of our run game opened up a lot of short area passing opportunities in 2015.  In 2015, Reed and Crowder caught an awful lot of passes where LBs or safeties should have been had they not respected our run game. Guice looks to be a better crease runner, watching the tape there were several runs by our backs that would have been TDs if the back would have just rolled off the tackler (something both Morris and Portis did well and Guice looks good at too) as opposed to just running square into him.

[bedlamVR]

14 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

It's interesting because we haven't seen a Reid or Gruden QB in another system to really get a sense of how they'd do. 

 

Dalton is the best example we have and, like you said, he probably made improvements in his game as he was entering his prime. Outside of one great year after Gruden left, he's basically been about the same. For Reid, McNabb left and never played a full season. He wasn't as good for his 12ish games here, but he was clearly on the downslope of his career so it's hard to really say he was great with Reid and failed without him. 

 

Cousins leaving Gruden in his prime and Smith leaving Reid with still some tread on the tires will be a fascinating data point for each coach. Let's say, for example, that Smith thrives (matching last year's numbers) while Cousins plateaus or dips. That would be a huge check mark for Gruden. Conversely, if Smith struggles and Cousins improves...not good! 

 

 

Oh, absolutely I think it is going to be interesting... 

[Darth Tater]

4 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

I disagree. I have seen A LOT of people saying that this is a marked upgrade. And I'm the "hater" that compares him to Mark Brunell. And I should clarify that, not Mark Brunell solely as a Redskin, but as a career overview. A smart, efficient, moble QB, that plays well with a good supporting cast, but not a Aaron Rodgers type that can put a team on his back and win.

Nobody started saying he was a marked upgrade until the haters started complaining about a downgrade. The main people I've seen claiming people say that are the Alex haters.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

13 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

I don't understand why people are so enamored by Alex as a runner, Cousins was about as good at it (not as big a threat to make the long run is pretty much the main difference) and seems much better using his legs to score.  

 

Mostly because he's undeniably more effective at it. Comparing the past 3 seasons (which is all we can compare because Cousins was a full-time starter), Smith's worst season was about the equivalent of Cousins' best. Smith rushed more often and for a much better average than Cousins. Cousins had more TDs but to me that's more circumstantial than anything else (unless you think Riggs was a better RB than Byner in the 1991 season). 

 

Smith rushed 192 times for 987 yards and 8 TDs over the past three years. 

Cousins rushed 109 times for 322 yards and 13 TDs over that same time period.  

 

I don't think there's any debate why people are enamored with Alex as a runner, especially in comparison to Cousins. 

[NoCalMike]

17 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

The red zone is a relatively large area.  1 down at the 11 is significantly different than 1 down at the 10. 1 down inside the 5 is significantly different from first down and goal outside the 5.

 

We did not score with Cousins running ROs occasionally. For the last 3 years, it has our best way to score in the red zone via the run game. I don't understand why people are so enamored by Alex as a runner, Cousins was about as good at it (not as big a threat to make the long run is pretty much the main difference) and seems much better using his legs to score. 

 

Here is one point I will argue with you about.  I think Cousins success with the RO was much more about the surprise element.  Alex is more athletic and faster then Cousins as a runner.  Now, either way it can work to the team's advantage (surprise element of athletic prowess) but for Smith it isn't going to just be on the read option plays themselves.  There will be times when say a QB rollout or bootleg is called and if Smith turns the corner with space in front of him, you will the difference between a QB that can occasionally surprise a defense with his legs and a QB who is a legit running threat. 

[bedlamVR]

50 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Between this and you saying that it's not allowed to be enthusiastic about Alex around here, I'm beginning to think that you're not even reading the board or your interpretation is simply way off.  I constantly see Jay commended for his offensive mind.  There's a gang of us though that don't think you can just insert anyone into his system and poop 4K yards though.  Doesn't mean we don't like the guy or give him credit.

 

Maybe it is me getting the tone wrong - but I am really not so sure - I read the boards a lot and there is core of guys who post  constantly emphasising negativity why people will fail why so and so not as good as thingy on another team - or why there is a toxic aspect to the team which will mean it will never succeed - essentially doom and gloomers 

 

 i follow the team a lot i read a lot - i have done for years (and it is not easy from the UK )  - and it sucks rooting for a team like the skins who are not at the top and I want them to get there i really do - i get frustrated and angry just like the rest of you - i come back just like the rest of you - 

 

And criticism is fine it really is - where it is warranted  - but when that is all you do - it comes across like you would rather be right than actually support a winning team - and I have seen some of the critics literally go absolutely awol disappearing without a trace when the team does win and does look good only to slope back at the first hint of blood in the water I am not saying that is you but you must recognise what i am talking about .. 

 

Right now it is July - weeks away from camp - and people are still ****ing about a trade that happened in February -

 

Debate is fine - it is but this is not debate - it is just stating the same things over and over and over - unflinching unlistening unwilling to consider any other opinions - or really argue them until the other person just give up - 

 

its nearly football - time to look forward not back - at the day not the night Alex Smith is THE QB who broke 4000yards in a Andy Ried offense - not Vick, not McNabb Alex Smith and he did it while posting a 131.4 QBR when throwing the ball more than 20 yards (in the air) down the field ---- and connecting more than any other QB in the league last year - doesn't really fit the captin checkdown mold people want to hammer him into .. 

 

[B.A.M.F.]

I think people need to qualify what they mean with terms like “upgrade” and “downgrade.” Wins? Stats? The eye test? A better leader?

 

I’ve been thinking Smith will likely have a slight dip in stats, less turnovers, and more importantly, more wins. We’ll see.

 

Cousins to me was our version of Tony Romo. He could get stats, but not lead the team to enough victories, especially when it mattered most. That said I like Cousins and wish him well. Would have liked to keep him, but not for the crazy money talked about.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 minutes ago, bedlamVR said:

 

Debate is fine - it is but this is not debate - it is just stating the same things over and over and over - unflinching unlistening unwilling to consider any other opinions - or really argue them until the other person just give up - 

 

 

Just because someone won’t flinch doesn’t mean they aren’t listening.

 

That said, I can’t recall you ever flinching when presented with less optimistic takes than your own either.

 

Thats fine and all, but a bit hypocritical.

[Morneblade]

5 hours ago, bedlamVR said:

 

The defense shut down the packers in 2016 shut out the destiny raiders, rams in 2017 and pretty much won the seahawks game - I am not meaning to deminsih Kirk here but to say the Skins over the last three years has been a one man team in Kirk cousins is more than disingenous.

 

You can point to the games we lost - For example, people want to put all the blame on the D for the Saints loss. But with the ball in his hand dying minutes of regulation Kirk throws a dumb ass intentional pass to no one - no pressure just a dumb ass mental block (I know the league would eventually say it got the call wrong - but it was close enough to be called)  I- 15 yard penalty knocking us out of FG range - 10 seconds run off  which I seem to remember didn't matter because Kirk - put the team on his back with time expiring -  took a sack coughed up the ball and the rest we all know. 

 

Okay so I am being equally unfair in blaming Kirk for the loss - and it really wasn't his fault it was a team loss - but people talk on here as if Kirk was the one gleaming example in a sea of nothingness - 

 

He wasn't 

 

I am not sure if Smith is an upgrade - i think they are about the same - but I do know while Andy Ried is one hell of a HC/OC he Smith last year was the FIRST 4000 yard QB he had ever 

 

Jay made Andy Dalton a 4000 yard 33 TD guy the year before he took this job - Andy Dalton - In 2014 he somehow made Colt McCoy look like a QB 

 

What i am saying is to compare 2 qbs they really need to be in the same system and I think it is exciting to see someone like Smith paired with someone like Jay. 

 

Its July - lets get behind OUR guy - if you think it is wrong some couldn't get behind Kirk (because they liked the other guy)  - while he was here - you are right - but equally does it really make any sense to not get behind Alex for the same reason ? 

 

1. Don't tell me we had a decent defense, one that finished in the bottom 3rd for years. Just. Don't.

 

2. He was our best offensive weapon when he was here. On a team whoes defense and running game................stunk. Now in 2016 when he had some weapons, and a OL that wasn't a sieve, is anyone going to say he wasn't our best player (outside of Trent Williams) on the team? Last year was a disaster. OL had guys signed off the strees starting. No Running game and signing guys off the street to start. Crowder takes 2 steps back, and the rest of the WR cast is........Ok, I"ll say it. Ryan Grant is your 2nd biggest target and starter. Ryan Grant, across from Terrell Pryor. I'm sorry, but the WR's we had were scubs.

 

3. You're confusing give a assessment over support. Alex Smith does not excite me. I don't think he is a upgrade. I think he can do good things, but he is not a franchise QB. He needs a very solid team to be real effective. The bigger question is are we improved enough to give Alex what he needs. There are signs that we are much closer to that than we were, but we don't know yet. Guice is an unknown, as is how good our defensive front 7 is. LG is a HUGE question mark, as is center to a lesser degree. Will Reed be avaliable for more than a couple games? All of these have to be positive for this team to even have a chance to do much.

 

Edit: But if we end up with a top 10 Defense and a top 5 rushing attack, we can go 12-4 or 11-5 and maybe make a run IF everything falls into place.

[Morneblade]

2 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

Nobody started saying he was a marked upgrade until the haters started complaining about a downgrade. The main people I've seen claiming people say that are the Alex haters.

 

Did you watch the NFL shows after the trade? "Franchise QB"? "Marked Upgrade"? Bucky Brooks said that. Colin Cowheard said that. NFL.com said that. Even Jay Gruden said that. And I think he is a downgrade. Not a big one, but on none the less.

[Skinsinparadise]

To me Alex and Kirk are apples to oranges as players -- what they have in common is the critics hit them almost in the identical way.  If I had to choose one, it would be Kirk.   But the one thing I am looking forward to for Alex over Kirk is this kind of stuff below.  I love the backfield confusion stuff.  So look forward to see what Jay-O'Connell have cooking in that department.  Look at this formation -- you got Hill to his left, Kelce behind  Smith like he's a RB.   He's got a RB to the right.  Love all the confusion behind the 2012 offense.  We potentially can do something similar with Alex. 

 

 

 

Another

 

 

Shades of 2012 in this case Alex ends up handing off to Tyreek Hill.

 

[joeken24]

Interesting interview.

I think we've got a QB with a chip on his shoulder.

Also, I guess it brings clarity to how dysfunction can play out on the field.

I'm sure its nice for Alex to finally get to an organization that wants him.

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

7 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

I think Guice, plus a healthy Thompson & Crowder will help in the red zone.  Also if you know who can stay on the field.  All of which has nothing to do with Alex Smith, to be fair.

You know who? Who, Jordan Reed? It’s ok, you can say his name, he won’t get injured just from that ?

[Morneblade]

37 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

You know who? Who, Jordan Reed? It’s ok, you can say his name, he won’t get injured just from that ?

 

Hey man, don't take any chances!

[Morneblade]

8 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

It's interesting because we haven't seen a Reid or Gruden QB in another system to really get a sense of how they'd do. 

 

Dalton is the best example we have and, like you said, he probably made improvements in his game as he was entering his prime. Outside of one great year after Gruden left, he's basically been about the same. For Reid, McNabb left and never played a full season. He wasn't as good for his 12ish games here, but he was clearly on the downslope of his career so it's hard to really say he was great with Reid and failed without him. 

 

Cousins leaving Gruden in his prime and Smith leaving Reid with still some tread on the tires will be a fascinating data point for each coach. Let's say, for example, that Smith thrives (matching last year's numbers) while Cousins plateaus or dips. That would be a huge check mark for Gruden. Conversely, if Smith struggles and Cousins improves...not good! 

 

Maybe, but Cousins could be going to a situation in which he has more weapons. So it's not a apples to apples comparison. I don't think anyone is going to argue that our WR corps are comparable. And if you do, you're been drinking spiked KoolAid (you gotta watch Zoony). Cousins, with more weapons and a better OL than he had last year, plus Dalvin Cook at RB should put up better numbers almost by default over last year. I suppose the real test is will he create something close to 2016. If Jay has such a QB friendly system, then maybe you see a jump with Smith even coming into a new system. I'm not real sure that happens, even though I see some people bagging Andy Reid with apparently a not so friendly QB system. Not sure that's fair, as McNabb was not a real accurate QB. We played him 2x a year for a long time, and I can't tell you how many time he'd either put one in the dirt (remember all the earthworm jokes) or sail 10 feet over a open receiver. I don't put that on Reid, I put that on McNabb not being all that accurate. I think Reid got the most out of McNabb, and probably got Smith at least close to his ceiling. Which, if everyone else steps up, could be enough to make waves as a Redskin. But if he reverts to his career average, I don't think we have the horses to do much.

[bedlamVR]

I think with Ried he likes to use the pass as an extension of the running game ... he has always based his systems around mobile QBs and kind of the west cost ball control version ... 

 

High percentage throws but all plays are positive ... 

 

but in the last year he said he started doing things he has never done in his career to take advantage of the like of Hill and smith demonstrated that he could do it ... 

 

still he did trade him ... so there is that ... 

 

there is the McNabb nightmare - but Smith is not Donovan . McNabb  was a QB with an ego who went to a coach with a huge ego and absolute belief in his system ... square peg round hole ... and I understand the concerns .

 

Smith is a smart guy who has a huge chip on his shoulder and a belief in himself .. but will do what he needs to do and will commit to a system and buy in when he has the chance because he has that bitter taste of being a kick away from the Super Bowl to being disgarded within 2 years ... 

 

what he he brings in that regard is huge 

 

I like the guy who is not only beaten down but keeps getting up again .. 

 

he he is not going to be perfect but if he and Jay can get on the same page then  awesome ... and as SIP was saying I think he can help with the running game just with his running threat ... 

 

[DJHJR86]

14 hours ago, bedlamVR said:

Cousins didn't start until year 4 -  2nd year in Jays system here ...  Just saying - it is not really an apples to apples comparison .... how hard is it for people to actually give our coach some credit ? 

Cousins did start in Gruden's first year.  And had they actually stuck with him instead of going to noodle arm McCoy, he was on pace to surpass 4,000 yards and 30 TDs (although the INTs would've been high).  

[DJHJR86]

13 hours ago, B.A.M.F. said:

I think people need to qualify what they mean with terms like “upgrade” and “downgrade.” Wins? Stats? The eye test? A better leader?

 

The easiest question to answer this is to ask if people think that under identical circumstances last year, are we winning more, less, or the same 7 wins?  I think it would have been worse with Alex Smith last year.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

The easiest question to answer this is to ask if people think that under identical circumstances last year, are we winning more, less, or the same 7 wins?  I think it would have been worse with Alex Smith last year.

 

It would seem time heals all wounds and there's some revisionist history going on about last year.  Although I do recall folks playing down just how bad the roster was post injuries during the season too. 'No excuses' , 'Next Man Up' and all that jazz.  But last year was bad, very bad.  I'm in the minority that actually thought Cousins grew immensely last season even though it wasn't his best statistical season and took some sacks.  I watched him give up his body, stand in there and brace for collision and throw dimes on numerous occasions.  I watched him use his legs more than he had in prior seasons.  I know the narrative is that Jay was frustrated with Cousins and his 'process' and all that, but it certainly didn't look like that when Jay embraced Cousins after the Seattle game or many other spots during the season. 

 

Given the fact that we couldn't run the ball effectively against anyone not named the Rams, the defense fell off a cliff after week 4, and the ungodly amount of soul crushing injuries to our impact players.....I do not think Alex Smith wins 7 games with what we were forced to trot out there last year.  I don't think the team as it was setup was a team that could get the most out of Smith.  It's possible that the new additions and a dose of health to the impact players can get the most out of him and that's the hope.  But under no circumstances is Alex's performance this season going to be an apples to apples comparison of what Kirk had to work with last season.  And vice versa for how Kirk fares with the Vikings.

[DJHJR86]

55 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

But under no circumstances is Alex's performance this season going to be an apples to apples comparison of what Kirk had to work with last season.  And vice versa for how Kirk fares with the Vikings.

 

Agreed.

 

More interested to see how well the Chiefs are with Mahomes now.  

[Sandy Monk]

15 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

Did you watch the NFL shows after the trade? "Franchise QB"? "Marked Upgrade"? Bucky Brooks said that. Colin Cowheard said that. NFL.com said that. Even Jay Gruden said that. And I think he is a downgrade. Not a big one, but on none the less.

 

Well, considering that Cousins wanted nothing to do with Washington, and they were left with basically nothing at QB? I'd say they went out and found a significant upgrade to McCoy.   

 

As for Alex vs Kirk, I would call it about even. I expect Alex to become an upgrade for this particular 2018+ team, as I expect better defense and ground game from them. You get that, and you are better off with a QB like Alex. If you want a QB to try and out-gun an opponent because the defense and ground game sucks? then I'd give the nod to Kirk. 

 

Either way, Washington was about to sink for years. Adding Smith has made them functional, relevant, and possibly excellent as we go into the 2018+ seasons. Oh, but people still want to pine over the loss of a former QB that they knew would run screaming. Hmmmm....

[NoCalMike]

I think Cousins will do very well on the Vikings.  It think his stats & numbers will look impressive.  The difference is Cousins is in Minnesota to win a Superbowl, or at least match where the team got to last season.  He isn't there to put up a lot of yards September - December.  Cousins will be solely graded on what he does for the team once the post season starts. 

 

I think people are confusing the criticism of Cousins or at least the "not sure yet" sentiment when it comes to his game, with saying he is a bad QB.  The dude is a good a QB. He was good here, he will be good in Minnesota.  The one questionable aspects is his sometimes shaky performances in big games with a lot on the line and/or how he seems to go into a mental shell in certain situations.   That can cost a team like the Vikings a chance at the Superbowl, where here in Washington it was viewed through such a smaller lens because it was usually about being .500 vs a Wildcard berth.

[Malapropismic Depository]

19 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

  Also if you know who can stay on the field. 

 

This is the year, my friend.

16 games.

Make that 18 !

I believe !