Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

[Cooleyfan1993]

15 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

This is the year, my friend.

16 games.

Make that 18 !

I believe !

If you’re predicting a super bowl, that would be 19  

[Malapropismic Depository]

3 hours ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

If you’re predicting a super bowl, that would be 19  

 

Nah, not gonna go quite that far.....unless we play Minnesota in the NFC Championship....then we're definitely goin to the Super Bowl......and then hopefully it's against the Chiefs.

[Cooleyfan1993]

1 hour ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Nah, not gonna go quite that far.....unless we play Minnesota in the NFC Championship....then we're definitely goin to the Super Bowl......and then hopefully it's against the Chiefs.

Hmm. So you’re saying we’ll lose in the divisional round? Either that or make it to the nfc championship game and lose. Both of those would be 18 games (the 18 you were (jokingly, most likely) predicting reed would play in. 

 

Id be fine with either of those scenarios 

[redskinss]

Maybe he was saying we'd win the superbowl and he'd miss only one game. 

?

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, Sandy Monk said:

 

Well, considering that Cousins wanted nothing to do with Washington, and they were left with basically nothing at QB? I'd say they went out and found a significant upgrade to McCoy.   

 

As for Alex vs Kirk, I would call it about even. I expect Alex to become an upgrade for this particular 2018+ team, as I expect better defense and ground game from them. You get that, and you are better off with a QB like Alex. If you want a QB to try and out-gun an opponent because the defense and ground game sucks? then I'd give the nod to Kirk. 

 

Either way, Washington was about to sink for years. Adding Smith has made them functional, relevant, and possibly excellent as we go into the 2018+ seasons. Oh, but people still want to pine over the loss of a former QB that they knew would run screaming. Hmmmm....

 

I don't really pine over much.  But I always wonder this when I see the Kirk didn't want to be here bit...its hard for me to couch it so broadly as if its some broad sentiment driven by a macro view of him not liking being a Redskin.  The people who covered the contract and talked to him and his camp had an overriding theme which is Kirk didn't like Bruce or trusted his competence and the feeling was mutual.  Really little else to it than that according to most covering the contract. 

 

As a guy who doesn't think Bruce is set for life in the Redskins FO nor should he be -- that's my regret about all of it.   But I agree about your point about McCoy.  McCoy is a classy dude, nice guy but the idea of him being the starting QB makes me cringe -- IMO Alex Smith is markedly better than McCoy.  I think he's a downgrade from Kirk but not to the degree that we will feel it considering his supporting cast should be much better than the 2017 banged up crew.

[Dancing Bear]

Yeah, I'm all in with Alex!

Kirk did not want to be here anymore!

 

[Morneblade]

On 7/13/2018 at 10:08 AM, Sandy Monk said:

 

Well, considering that Cousins wanted nothing to do with Washington, and they were left with basically nothing at QB? I'd say they went out and found a significant upgrade to McCoy.   

 

 

 

I seriously doubt that. If we had offered a LTD that was market value, he would have signed. But the FO @#$% the bed and low-balled from day 1. Pin this on Bruce Allen.

 

Edit: due to profanity warning.

[redskinss]

5 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

I seriously doubt that. If we had offered a LTD that was market value, he would have signed. But the FO sh*t the bed and low-balled from day 1. Pin this on Bruce Allen.

How do you know this? 

There's been plenty of rumors but no facts. 

Neither side has made any concrete statements about what was offered and what wasn't. 

For all we know cousins could have told them there was absolutely no way he was signing a long term deal in Washington and the front office did what they could with the franchise tag until there was nothing practical they could do to hold him anymore. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

30 minutes ago, redskinss said:

How do you know this? 

There's been plenty of rumors but no facts. 

Neither side has made any concrete statements about what was offered and what wasn't. 

For all we know cousins could have told them there was absolutely no way he was signing a long term deal in Washington and the front office did what they could with the franchise tag until there was nothing practical they could do to hold him anymore. 

 

 

Depends on what juncture of the negotiation you are talking about.  in 2016 Kirk was not only willing to sign a LTD, he actually put an offer out.  Multiple beat guys have confirmed that. In 2017 is where it get more complicated -- according to most he was willing to sign one earlier that year but as it got closer to the deadline he decided he wanted to play it out for 1 year -- Kirk himself said so.  But again, the idea of why Kirk didn't want a LTD -- just hard for me to see how that's some blanket statement with no underpinnings to it.  He didn't want to be a Redskin at that point -- why?  Rumors about friction with Bruce Allen -- just not true, he really dug Bruce its just he wanted to leave just because?

 

Anyway this discussion is one thing I do like about having Alex here.  It's not because I blame Kirk for not loving Bruce.  But because the drama was nonstop.  As for Alex who could blame him for wanting to be here.  His team drafted his replacement, actively tried and then did to trade him and the Redskins gave him a new fat long term contract considering his age -- I'd be loving it, too.   Alex is a good guy.  He will be fun to root for.  I am just hoping he still his his legs as he enters his mid to late 30s, that's my #1 issue with the trade.  Will see. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Kirk didn’t want to be here and Alex does is one of the wierdest narratives we’ve had.  

 

As if there isn’t a stark difference in how they both ended up where they did.

 

Alex Smith couldn’t be happier to be a Washington Redskin.  Well umm yeah, his team drafted his replacement, traded him and he got one final big time payday out of his career.  Of course he “wants to be a Redskin”.  Who wouldn’t?

[Skinsinparadise]

My mantra for Alex will be the same as it was for Kirk -- give the dude a run game, it means a lot.  

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/36777/derrius-guice-healthy-ol-can-solve-redskins-run-game-woes

As one scout said, the goal is to get defenses to respect the run and get more players in the box. He also called the notion of committing to the run “overrated.” It’s not about number of carries or striking some sort of balance, whatever that might be. It’s about the threat. One defensive assistant from another team said a year ago the Redskins didn’t have a back they feared. That didn’t change in the 2017 season.

Certainly, there have been times in games where the Redskins could have stuck with the run a little more. But would it have helped them win more? Hard to say.

One note: Eight of the top-10 teams in terms of number of carries finished with a winning record last year. Eight of the top 10 in terms of yards per carry also did the same,

 

Barnwell ranks the top offenses as for playmakers.  #18 is fair For the Redskins IMO if Reed is has usual banged up but if he plays and Doctson develops I think they are top 10.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24045670/ranking-nfl-best-worst-offensive-arsenals-weapons-2018

1. Chiefs

2. NY Giants

3. Falcons

4. Steelers

5. Vikings

 

Redskins

8. Washington

The most appealing parts of the offense in Washington are the nontraditional weapons, all of whom struggled with injuries last season. Jamison Crowder, Jordan Reed and Chris Thompson were reduced to 203 touches, down from 250 in 2016. Each should benefit from playing with Alex Smith, as long as they stay healthy, which has been a particularly difficult task for Reed, who has spent most of that time either on the sidelines or playing through pain. It's tough to project him for anything close to a full season.

The primary pieces are less threatening, especially at wideout. Former first-round pick Josh Doctson caught just 46.1 percent of the passes thrown his way in 2017, the fifth-worst rate in the league among receivers with 50 targets or more. Even as a deep threat, he needs to be more efficient. Washington gave Paul Richardson a five-year, $40 million deal, but Richardson racked up just 1,302 receiving yards across 47 games with Seattle; having both Richardson and Doctson in the lineup wouldn't seem to jibe with Smith's skill set. Second-round pick Derrius Guice should be an upgrade on Rob Kelley and Samaje Perine, and Guice will be the player who might help push Washington's weapons past league average.

 

 

 

[Sandy Monk]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Anyway this discussion is one thing I do like about having Alex here.  It's not because I blame Kirk for not loving Bruce.  But because the drama was nonstop.  As for Alex who could blame him for wanting to be here.  His team drafted his replacement, actively tried and then did trade him and the Redskins gave him a new fat long term contract considering his age -- I'd be loving it, too.   Alex is a good guy.  He will be fun to root for.  I am just hoping he still his his legs as he enters his mid to late 30s, that's my #1 issue with the trade.  Will see. 

 

I wouldn't worry about the legs. He is said to keep and stay in excellent shape, and showed that he could rip off some big runs last year. Even if he lost a fraction of that, it would still be plenty enough to remain a plus. 

 

If there is any concern I have of him and the Washington commitment, it is the history of concussions. Alex has had 4 in the last 6 years. Most may not have been so serious, but with the growing news of CTE, any concussion talk is serious. I thought he would be wise to retire, frankly, but he is apparently determined to raise a trophy a time or two before that happens. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Sandy Monk said:

 

I wouldn't worry about the legs. He is said to keep and stay in excellent shape, and showed that he could rip off some big runs last year. Even if he lost a fraction of that, it would still be plenty enough to remain a plus. 

 

If there is any concern I have of him and the Washington commitment, it is the history of concussions. Alex has had 4 in the last 6 years. Most may not have been so serious, but with the growing news of CTE, any concussion talk is serious. I thought he would be wise to retire, frankly, but he is apparently determined to raise a trophy a time or two before that happens. 

 

 

 

Am not worried about his legs for the next season or two -- my thing about him is after that.  Trying to think of a running QB is their late 30s -- maybe a little Steve Young?    As for concussions, yeah I recall reading he's one of the players who is playing with a special helmet that is supposed to help mitigate impact.

 

As for being in shape, that helps.  One of the big differences with athletes as they hit their mid to late 30s according to one doctor is that if they get hurt it tends to impact their body more so than when you are younger.  So for older athletes some of it its just sheer luck -- you can be fit but also get a devastating injury that isn't as easy to recoup from.

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Am not worried about his legs for the next season or two -- my thing about him is after that.  Trying to think of a running QB is their late 30s -- maybe a little Steve Young?   

 

I don't see a point during the 3 years that we are tied to Smith where is running will be below average for a QB. He may not be in 2020 what he is in 2018, but he will be more than effective. 

[wit33]

@Skinsinparadise

 

When did Smith become this dual threat QB it appears you’re making him out to be? The Chiefs involved smith in a lot of deception in the backfield, but he rarely was given/expected to keep and be a run threat. He totaled 60 carries last year, a large percentage were him deciding to run after play breaking down. His kind of impact with his legs should age well (situational game type running versus scheme). 

 

Smith’s legs are an asset not a requirement for him to succeed. For me, this is what most excites me and differentiates him from the other 15 guys I group him in with. 

 

To name a few who were effective running late in their careers:

 

Fitzpatrick, Mccown, Kitna, Gannon, Fiedler, Garcia, Plummer, and Hasselbeck are a few that come to mind. None of these come close to the pedigree from an athletic standpoint, maybe Plummer. 

 

Well, Doug Flutie is a good comparison from a speed standpoint. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, wit33 said:

@Skinsinparadise

 

When did Smith become this dual threat QB it appears you’re making him out to be? The Chiefs involved smith in a lot of deception in the backfield, but he rarely was given/expected to keep and be a run threat. He totaled 60 carries last year, a large percentage were him deciding to run after play breaking down. His kind of impact with his legs should age well (situational game type running versus scheme). 

 

Smith’s legs are an asset not a requirement for him to succeed. For me, this is what most excites me and differentiates him from the other 15 guys I group him in with. 

 

 

He rushed for 355 yards last year, his peak was 2 seasons before with almost 500 yards.  Yeah the idea that Alex isn't a dual threat QB is news to me -- and apparently a lot of NFL insiders who practically talk him up that way as a mantra.  And its a positive obviously not a negative.   Yeah if you are comparing him to RG3 -- yeah he's not some insane record breaking runner -- ditto he's not Michael Vick in that department -- but he has wheels and the threat of read option is a part of his game, you can see it if you watch enough Chief games. 

 

I've started watching the coaches tape on the Chiefs and yeah Andy Reid liked to throw some 2012 razzle dazzle in the backfield and RO EVERY game I've noticed so far.  And as Shanny likes to say the QB doesn't have to be running like crazy -- the mere threat that if he does that he can gain some yards because he has wheels is the lead part.  It keeps defenses honest.  So yeah a slower Alex Smith would have some impact on this.  I wish I can find the interview but recall one when I was researching Alex where he commented that his coordinator said wow imagine if we had him younger when he was even faster or something to that effect. 

 

As for it being a requirement.  I didn't say it was a requirement but IMO and the opinion of plenty of others -- its that ingredient that gives him something special.  You'll be hard pressed to find someone saying Alex has a special arm or he will sit back in the pocket like Brady and pick you apart.   I've mentioned plenty of times what people in KC say about him good and bad.  And the good often centers on his part in all the backfield deception, his own threat with his legs that keep defenses honest and in turn you can take advantage of that in the passing game.  

 

 

9 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

 

To name a few who were effective running late in their careers:

 

Fitzpatrick, Mccown, Kitna, Gannon, Fiedler, Garcia, Plummer, and Hasselbeck are a few that come to mind. None of these come close to the pedigree from an athletic standpoint, maybe Plummer. 

 

Well, Doug Flutie is a good comparison from a speed standpoint. 

 

 

Don't know how you are defining effective but if its in the form of apples to apples with Alex.  Running for 355 yards or close enough when they are 34.  Then almost everyone on that list defeats your point.  Kirk Cousins would be a bigger run threat than most of those guys you mentioned when they hit that age.   Alex ran at least double but mostly triple and quadruple of all these guys as they enter their mid 30s.   Actually in most of those cases, those guys were no run threats at all judging by their numbers.  Plummer wasn't even playing at 34 let alone showing his wheels. Plummer's last 2 seasons were meh as for running numbers.  Gannon yeah had his last go of good running numbers at 35 and then started falling off at 36 where he was a 200 yd change guy and then that was about it for him.  Flutie would be the one to showcase.  He is indeed the exception to the rule as opposed to being one guy among the list of many that do it -- at least from the examples you gave. 

 

 

[Sandy Monk]

I'll put it like this, and forgive, but I don't know how those Madden games are anymore. 

 

If Alex Smith has a speed of 75 in real life, then in 2020, he will have a 70 speed. In the 3 years that he is tied to Washington, his ability to run or create opportunities with his legs will not be an aspect of his game that gets met with disappointment.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Sandy Monk said:

I'll put it like this, and forgive, but I don't know how those Madden games are anymore. 

 

If Alex Smith has a speed of 75 in real life, then in 2020, he will have a 70 speed. In the 3 years that he is tied to Washington, his ability to run or create opportunities with his legs will not be an aspect of his game that gets met with disappointment.

 

 

 

I get the point.  But my point is predicated on this:

 

A.  We don't know one way or another about a QB entering their mid 30s.  #1 factor is injury -- your body doesn't recover the same at that age.  We can't anticipate in advance if Alex gets hurt or not. 

B.  Not a lot of examples of running QBs in their late 30s.  I doubt that's mere random coincidence.

C.  I don't think Alex is the same QB without his legs.  That doesn't mean he stinks without it -- but IMO he wouldn't be as good.

 

And yeah its also plausible that maybe Alex will be one of those QBs who peak later in their career.  I am not really arguing it either way.  I am just saying there is a reason why many teams including Alex's former one start looking for replacements when their QB enters their mid 30s -- and I don't think its because these teams think their guy had another 5 years to go and the player if anything is ascending.  I am not saying you are suggesting otherwise -- just explaining my point of view. 

 

 

 

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

Geezz..let Training Camp begin already. At LEAST we have a proven NFL QB and not a work in progress or rookie QB. We will compete and that's OK by me. I severely overrated our WR group last year so I'll skip the "predictions" this year and watch

[Skinsinparadise]

19 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I don't see a point during the 3 years that we are tied to Smith where is running will be below average for a QB. He may not be in 2020 what he is in 2018, but he will be more than effective. 

 

If I had to summarize my point on Alex succinctly -- I am not worried about Alex at 34, maybe not even 35.  After that I wonder.  And if it ends up a 2 year rental and the team doesn't make the playoffs IMO it was a wasted trade.   IMO you don't give up a 3rd rounder and one of your best young players to keep in the 8-8 range for two years and then reboot again.  I am not saying that's what I predict happens.  I got no clue.  But its just as plausible to me that this team isn't a playoff team in the next two years as it is that they are a playoff team.  I can go really either way about this team.    IMO you trade for a veteran QB if you think you can make the big dance or in the Redskins more modest version of the Superbowl in the Dan era -- just make the playoffs.  And that's me backing off of what I said earlier when they made the trade -- back then I said get to the playoffs and actually win in the playoffs. 

 

I don't really even have a hard opinion of how it works out with Alex and the team in the next two seasons -- got no issues with the optimism, got no issue with pessimism.    My only point is the idea that slam dunk Alex is an upgrade and who cares if he's 34, of course it will all work, as if today's 34 is yesterdays 28.  I don't buy that.  And I am not exactly going out on a limb with the point, I've heard plenty echo it.   To me its a TBD.

8 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Geezz..let Training Camp begin already. At LEAST we have a proven NFL QB and not a work in progress or rookie QB. We will compete and that's OK by me. I severely overrated our WR group last year so I'll skip the "predictions" this year and watch

 

I hear you but what does this point have to do with the discussion?

[Sandy Monk]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

And yeah its also plausible that maybe Alex will be one of those QBs who peak later in their career.  I am not really arguing it either way.  I am just saying there is a reason why many teams including Alex's former one start looking for replacements when their QB enters their mid 30s -- and I don't think its because these teams think their guy had another 5 years to go and the player if anything is ascending.  I am not saying you are suggesting otherwise -- just explaining my point of view. 

 

As a team it is always wise to make sure you acquire a viable, young, and cheap QB developing behind any vet QB1 that is either around 30, is expensive, or almost finishing up an existing contract. Any team this applies to would be painfully negligent to not.

 

 

Quote

 

Not a lot of examples of running QBs in their late 30s.  I doubt that's mere random coincidence.

 I don't think Alex is the same QB without his legs. 

 

 

Smith is not a running QB. He is a passing QB that has the ability to run. That ability is not going to suddenly fall off a cliff within the next few years. 

 

Quote

 

if it ends up a 2 year rental and the team doesn't make the playoffs IMO it was a wasted trade. 

 

 

It's incredibly unlikely to be a 2 year rental, and if this team doesn't make the playoffs, then it's far more likely that the failure will be due to reasons out of Smith's control. 

 

They went out and got him because they know what he's capable of. Now, it's up to factors outside of the QB1 spot.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

13 minutes ago, Sandy Monk said:

 

Smith is not a running QB. He is a passing QB that has the ability to run. That ability is not going to suddenly fall off a cliff within the next few years. 

 

I agree with the point but its a strawman argument and doesn't apply to the point you responded to.  The idea that a QB can have a strength that's part of his arsenal that diminishes (not fall off of cliff as you mention) isn't some wild unique notion that's exclusive to me.  Veteran QBs have actually talked about it especially retired ones.   It's a grey argument -- not about one wild extreme versus another wild extreme.

 

13 minutes ago, Sandy Monk said:

 

It's incredibly unlikely to be a 2 year rental, and if this team doesn't make the playoffs, then it's far more likely that the failure will be due to reasons out of Smith's control. 

 

I agree with this, too.  But this actually makes my point as opposed to refutes.  That's my whole point about the trade you better have the supporting cast around him -- that's why I said when the trade was made if I was Jax, Denver, Minny I'd like the trade.  For this team, I don't know if we have the supporting cast to make it happen with a veteran.  And if its not a 2 year rental, I go 3.  I don't see Alex as a long term solution at his age. 

[HTTRDynasty]

I’ve already said that I share SIP’s concern about Smith’s age long-term. But for me, it’s more about his arm strength. When it comes to his legs, one thing to note is that Alex is actually a few months younger than Aaron Rodgers, who is much more of a dual-threat QB than Alex is (even though Alex ran a slightly faster 40). I highly doubt the Packers are worried about Rodgers losing his effectiveness in a couple seasons just because he might lose a step or two. Mind you, Rodgers is probably the most talented QB in NFL history, so they’d be fools to worry about that. But I really don’t think either one of these guys’ athleticism will fall off a cliff at age 37/38.  In a few years, they’ll both probably still be faster than Kirk is now, for example. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If I had to summarize my point on Alex succinctly -- I am not worried about Alex at 34, maybe not even 35.  After that I wonder.  And if it ends up a 2 year rental and the team doesn't make the playoffs IMO it was a wasted trade.   IMO you don't give up a 3rd rounder and one of your best young players to keep in the 8-8 range for two years and then reboot again.  I am not saying that's what I predict happens.  I got no clue.  But its just as plausible to me that this team isn't a playoff team in the next two years as it is that they are a playoff team.  I can go really either way about this team.    IMO you trade for a veteran QB if you think you can make the big dance or in the Redskins more modest version of the Superbowl in the Dan era -- just make the playoffs.  And that's me backing off of what I said earlier when they made the trade -- back then I said get to the playoffs and actually win in the playoffs. 

 

I don't really even have a hard opinion of how it works out with Alex and the team in the next two seasons -- got no issues with the optimism, got no issue with pessimism.    My only point is the idea that slam dunk Alex is an upgrade and who cares if he's 34, of course it will all work, as if today's 34 is yesterdays 28.  I don't buy that.  And I am not exactly going out on a limb with the point, I've heard plenty echo it.   To me its a TBD.

 

Well, none of that really addresses the specific point that I don't see Smith's running ability falling off significantly in the 3 years he's likely to be here. I think his legs will be an asset in year 3 just like they will be this coming season. 

[Sandy Monk]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

  For this team, I don't know if we have the supporting cast to make it happen with a veteran. 

 

And if its not a 2 year rental, I go 3.  I don't see Alex as a long term solution at his age. 

 

No one knows for certain whether the supporting cast is strong enough, but laying down would have been a terrible decision, imho. They didn't want to wave the white flag, and frankly couldn't afford to be a bottom-dweller for the next two years while playing a rookie or McCoy. The roster looks strong enough right now, but dudes got to stay somewhat healthy, and young dudes have to prove themselves. 

 

I don't feel a need to stress over what the QB situation is 3 years from now. If pushed to think down the line, it is easy to see a scenario where they select the QBotF early in the 2020 draft. That's what I would do, and it gives the rookie a full year to develop behind Smith. If the 37 year old then retires, isn't worth the price-tag, or the cheap rookie is ready to roll, then that's that. 

 

Until then, I am happy to see some competitive playoff pursuit.